I can see I’ve touched a nerve.
Not really, you’re just massively wrong on your defence of protectionism. TBF that’s not a surprise seeing as you live in France (I assume you still do), where it’s almost a religion. An entire economy built on ‘I’m alright jack and f*** everyone else’ principles, along with a political system rooted in authoritarian patriarchy and all the corruption that goes with it. At least they got the holidays thing right though. 😀
If you are bing paid to attend those industry events it's looks to me like you'd need a visa for France. It's not immediately obvious as one of the exempted sectors. You'd have to check with the consulate.
Dazh
As others have tried to explain
this thing for animators is a club. You need to be members to join. Various criteria are there to join in. Johnson and co have made sure we do not meet those criteria although we still could
Would you want someone who does not pay membership fees to be able to join in any activities of a club you run? someone who does not pay union dues still get representation> somone who is not a member of the labour party and pays no dues still get to vote on policy?
Pot kettle black, Dazh.
If you've followed the various "papers" and leaks sagas you'll which "city" is at the heart of it all.
I think you need to compare the current ruling parties in the two countries, how elections are financed (Sarkozy has been convicted for stuff the Tories do as right), the level of disclosure required and the penalties for non-disclosure of assets (Cahuzac did a couple of years inside). How parties are financed. How the electoral system works, how we chose our head of state. Check out the way France works, you may end up admirative.
Not defending the uk, or any government for that matter, I despise them all fairly equally. But on the point with France I do think it’s massively patriarchal and authoritarian, which are classic socialist traits which unfortunately they never grew out of. Like I said they got the holiday thing right, along with discarding its royal family, but not much else unfortunately.
Have you ever been to France and / or had a look at their political system - far better than the UK ( although not the best in europe) How many of our corrupt MPs have been prosecuted?
Just recently we know that Kwateng took a bribe from an energy company then relentlessly promoted them. No action taken inde3ed he was promoted
The corruption of the tories would not happen in france nor can you get a huge majority of MPs on a minority of the vote
Would you want someone who does not pay membership fees to be able to join in any activities of a club you run?
Absolutely. If I ran a club I’d ensure it was organised so that it didn’t exclude people on the basis of fees or other quantified contributions. I’ve been a ‘member’ of many organisations/clubs/groups which organise themselves with very few rules, no entry requirements and no fees. The only requirement being mutual respect and enthusiasm. It works and it could easily be scaled up. Maybe the animation industry should give it a try?
And those ‘clubs’ were to facilitate multinational projects to be published in many different regions?
BTW what our govt wants is irrelevant if they don’t pass a law to make it happen.
The government not being part or associates of international bodies reduces the opportunities available to people. You don’t need a law, you just don’t take part, and your citizens aren’t involved. If you think that national governments only place limits on us by passing laws, then, well…
Maybe the animation industry should give it a try?
Why don't you give it a try. Set it up for them using your own money and you can invite whoever the **** you like.
Plus, hopefully, it'll keep you occupied long enough to give these poor ****ers - who have been trying to explain to you as if you were five - a break.
I’m looking at tax and the way the creative industries avoid it.
I'm curious where you get this information from?
The creative industries collectively, which includes British digital innovation is, if it still is, the UK's biggest industry and export, this is calculated by revenue, and in polar opposition to what you are saying.
who have been trying to explain to you as if you were five
Maybe this is the problem. If like you they assume anyone who disagrees with them is not capable of thinking beyond that of a 5 year old, then they’re not going to get very far are they?
I’m not the one here arguing for more protectionism, more bureaucracy, more state involvement in areas which don’t require it, and more rules and regulations governing people who are perfectly capable of organising themselves.
The problem isn’t that the uk, eu or other govts are better or worse than each other, the problem is that they’re all the same.
I’m curious where you get this information from?
God only knows. Perhaps he dreamt it. He’s talking complete and utter bollocks which is based on absolutely nothing
I’ve just linked to the UK governments own figures on what the creative industries contribute, but for some bizarre reason he’s lumping the UK creative industries in with Apple and Amazon
Why? Who knows? Ill-informed idiocy, it seems. It’s a bizarre link to make
The fact of the matter here is that the UK. Creative sector, which is a huge net exporter - our cultural clout is enormous - has been sacrificed on the alter of Brexit, with zero provision or consideration given to their huge contribution to not only the economy, but to this countries global reputation
He clearly has little or no understanding of what the ‘creative industries’ actually are or how they function.
I’m presently working on design for online fashion retail and we design everything to be translated into 27 languages (this makes typography design…erm… interesting) as that’s the sphere that the UK fashion industry now operates in. It’s truly world-leading and mostly based in and around Manchester.
Brexit is a disaster for the industry
well well well.... if it isn't the consequences of our own actions.
Thinking that we can still benefit from EU membership, after shouting: "you can shove your club membership up your arse, we don't need these so-called "benefits" you're offering, we're better off on our own!" and storming out, is the worst kind of British/English exceptionalism.
The Europeans are laughing their arses off at just this kind of delusion.
Re: This Animation thing. They have (correctly) understood that they are now competing with the UK animation industry, rather than collaborating with it
Thinking that we can still benefit from EU membership
Who’s thinking that? That would be a very strange view now that we’re not a member.
I dunno.... somebody who thinks that the UK can still enjoy the advantages of being involved with a non-profit organization set up to benefit the European animation industry?
Binners, I was once asked what the creative industries contributed.. in a house that an architect designed, in a room influenced by a million interior design influences, and the chair he was sitting on was designed like every other product around around the room, by a designer, the clothes he was wearing were designed by a fashion designer, yup even Asda jeans.
He had a tv to watch film, media, visual advertising, all creative industries, and a car that was designed by an automotive designer, with a radio, a creative media in its own right and listened to music created by musicians, shops in a supermarket surrounded by shelves of millions of packaging designs, reads the odd magazine filled with graphics and photography, has a laptop to browse the work of web designers, graphic designers, content creators, animators, digital artists.
He put the kettle on, that was designed by a product designer, to have a coffee..out of a cup, yup there was a ceramicist behind that, no doubt now geared for mass production, they do that too, they also did the plate with the biscuit on, it was wrapped in silver foil with graphics emblazoned across it, he also plays computer games and has a reasonable library of books, who made those I wonder?
And he works for a company that was rebranded with an internationally recognisable logo, and voted for brexit.
Yes, if someone didn't know that the Britain was an international powerhouse of creative ingenuity, but thought the fake concept of sovereignty was worth something, they probably won't understand how to work out the future loss of revenue via intellectual property.
Anyone check that before we tore up the pay cheque? nope.
a non-profit organization set up to benefit the European animation industry?
Which is exactly my point. Kelvin sad there were no laws preventing uk animators from contributing. Is he wrong? More to the point what’s to be gained from this protectionist approach? There are many reasons and benefits to be in the eu, but this sort of protectionism isn’t one of them.
It’s not about the law, it is about being a member or associate country and being involved. This is what a Hard Brexit is all about. No longer being involved. Withdrawing. Not cooperating. No collaborators. Refusing to get involved even where industries have asked for us to be. See also Horizon and Erasmus+ (and Euratom, IEM, etc etc). Business and individuals in the UK are now hampered by the UK government’s decisions to not be involved.
Anyone check that before we tore up the pay cheque?
So do you (and Binners) agree with the prevailing view here that creative professionals should suffer because of the politics (not the laws, Kelvin already confirmed that) of brexit? Or should animators in the uk and eu put aside their political differences and continue working together for mutual benefit?
Animators? Scientists? Researchers? Academics? Engineers? Designers? Yes, all hampered by the UK government not being involved in the bodies set up to help people collaborate across borders.
wtf has it got to do with laws? We are not talking about laws, we are talking about groups of people coming together and cooperating/collaborating.
Membership of those groups is defined by the groups themselves, according to their aim. Here we have a group who's aim is to foster collaboration within the European animation industry for their mutual benefit. Yes, they could throw-open membership to the whole world. but then it wouldn't be doing what it was established to do.
Your argument is only one step away from "all-lives matter".
Jesus christ.
We - as a country - were eligible to take part in a European organisation, to wit the Cartoon Club or whatever it's called, by dint of our membership of the EU. When we left the EU we no longer met the entry criteria.
Other non-EU countries such as EEA members appear to get a priority consideration for joining, but we left that too.
Beyond that, it's explained in the PDF that I linked and you probably didn't read, and the previous posts I and others have made time and again which you've also ignored until you can find one you can poke a hole in.
We fell out of ERASMUS+ as a nation state. Reckon the EU are punishing us because it's all political when it shouldn't be and you don't understand why we can't just send a few students over for Freshers' Week?
Jesus christ. You're either trolling just to get a rise or you're an idiot, and I don't believe for a moment that you're an idiot. I don't know why I keep taking the bait.
So do you (and Binners) agree with the prevailing view here that creative professionals should suffer because of the politics (not the laws, Kelvin already confirmed that) of brexit?
Oh **** off. That's not the prevailing view and you know it.
Swap "should" with "unfortunately" and you're closer.
So do you (and Binners) agree with the prevailing view here that creative professionals should suffer because of the politics (not the laws, Kelvin already confirmed that) of brexit? Or should animators in the uk and eu put aside their political differences and continue working together for mutual benefit?
I don't think anyone is saying creative professionals should suffer, they are saying that there are inevitable consequences to not being in the EU, you are actually the first creative I have come across that didn't know this and moan about it before brexit.
I don't know the particular complications for animators, it sounds like you need a visa to work or take part in EU business events, if so it's not just you, this was the deal struck for you, no one felt it important to cover that in negotiations, it was all about trading with the rest of the world, presumably brexiters would suggest you go there in stead.
UK: we dont want to be in your club, give us our money back
EU: ok
UK: Waaaaaaa! why you not let us in club? I'm telling, err no-one, cos there's no one who cares
the view from the rest of the world is that the UK is a slow motion car crash off a cliff.
think I'll stay over in Oz for another decade
I think that's the sound of a distant penny dropping.
In fact, I think that's a sound that going to become deafening over the coming months. "oh, so because of Brexit we won't be able-to/eligible-for/included-in XYZ any more?" Insert inevitable and easily forseeable negative outcome here.
Hopefully some people's response will be to admit to themselves that they were fooled by the tories, and badly let down by Corbyn/Labour and vote accordingly next time. But I fear that most people will double down on the populist message and allow themselves to be convinced that it's somehow the EUs fault for unfairly excluding excluding plucky old Britain.
The wedge will be driven deeper by the politicians , making it even less likely that deals benefiting Britain can be agreed. Those Bastards! We'll show them.....
think I’ll stay over in Oz for another decade
We are planning to move home to the UK at the end of next year (Covid, children, aging parents etc) - but that's contingent on the UK not turning into a complete basket case in the meantime.
We are planning to move home to the UK at the end of next year (Covid, children, aging parents etc) – but that’s contingent on the UK not turning into a complete basket case in the meantime.
Yeah, its a hard choice. particularly if this trajectory continues
Yeah, its a hard choice. particularly if this trajectory continues
Yeah, ideally we would wait another 3-5 years - but we have a three and a five year old who haven't seen their grandparents since they were 1 and 3 respectively. We facetime obviously, but I find the guilt absolutely crushing. We were only supposed to be over here for a couple of years...... been here 9
you got PR or citizenship? can always come back
Yeah citizenship. That’s a prospect that has markedly improved from today - hotel quarantine with the kids was not an appealing concept (we did consider it though).
doors always open then
How long before covid and Brexit are separated in the blame game? Covid has done a fantastic job of muddying the waters for the layperson.
The situation in NI is becoming increasingly bizarre. Listen, watch or read anything from the 6 counties about how relived they are, how the tension is already easing and nearly every company, shop, organisation is happy about the "EU climbdown" to allow them to behave, well, not to put too fine a point on it, as if they're back in the EU.
And so to the UK mainland press, especially the more Brexity end, how to report this good news from across the sea...errr? Anyone?
but we have a three and a five year old who haven’t seen their grandparents since they were 1 and 3 respectively.
So you’re stopping your kids from seeing their grandparents (and vice versa) because of brexit? FFS man it’s only politics. Stop watching the news and you wouldn’t know the difference. What’s going to change between now and a few years?
So they've now temporarily (6 months) relaxed the rules on cabotage (spelling) for foreign lorry drivers, pretty much reversing the tightening they bought in after Brexit.
The industry doesn't seem happy about it and it does seem to go against everything they have recently been doing.
But Grant Schapps is selling it as a common sense approach and one of the Brexit benefits of being able to take back control....
So you’re stopping your kids from seeing their grandparents (and vice versa) because of brexit?
Stop that Dazh. You’re being a dick.
So you’re stopping your kids from seeing their grandparents (and vice versa) because of brexit? FFS man it’s only politics. Stop watching the news and you wouldn’t know the difference. What’s going to change between now and a few years?
Uh, I dont think Batty lives in the UK and will be significantly affected by both the pandemic and in the future Brexit implications on migration options.
Which is exactly my point. Kelvin sad there were no laws preventing uk animators from contributing. Is he wrong? More to the point what’s to be gained from this protectionist approach? There are many reasons and benefits to be in the eu, but this sort of protectionism isn’t one of them.
Were you the bloke on Question Time last night? He's showing your level of 'reasoning'...
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/status/1448767383879962624?s=20
Yes - respectfully: wind your neck in, you don’t know what you are talking about
Yeah, ideally we would wait another 3-5 years – but we have a three and a five year old who haven’t seen their grandparents since they were 1 and 3 respectively. We facetime obviously, but I find the guilt absolutely crushing. We were only supposed to be over here for a couple of years…… been here 9
Don't feel guilty, they can always come and see you. We use to worry about this (when the kids were younger), and then a friend pointed out that both sets of grandparents were retired, what was stopping them coming to us.
Unfortunately, there has been a global pandemic preventing them from coming and seeing us for the last two years.
Good news is that this is changing from 1st November - announced today! Parents of citizens now allowed in
Binners, you contininue to give examples of how creative industries create turnover rather than tax revenue.
You quoted fashion. I started a Great British products thread and checked out some of the suggestions made. Some were properly British, but some were at best a British design office. All the production was foreign and given the structure of the companies it was abundantly obvious there was scope for concentrating profits somewhere other than the UK.
As for industrial designers, take Dyson. There may be a design office in the UK but the products are made elsewhere and the tax is paid elsewhere:
https://www.cityam.com/boris-johnson-told-sir-james-dyson-he-would-fix-tax-issue/
If you want to make it profitable for companies to do everything in the UK/EU you need protectionism to cost them more than tax and higher labour costs. The EU has import duties that are IMO too low, it's too attractive to make stuff elsewhere and too easy to pay tax elsewhere.
Hilarious that dazh is saying the EU is the one imposing unnecessary bureaucracy 🤣🤣
The amount of extra red tape created by brexit is insane (in our lab there's an item a week we have to chase or pay a charge on we never had to prebrexit)
Just wait until we finally implement post brexit import checks on EU goods (& that bit of protectionist red tape is courtesy of the WTO) its going to be carnage
I see the government is now allowing eu drivers to do multiple drops in the UK, but they'll still be based in the EU (& paying taxes there)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58921498
And despite the fantasies of Johnson & dazh its another example of brexit not improving the lot of UK workers, instead it just makes the UK less competitive and we end up importing more goods & losing jobs
Eventually people might figure out immigrants grown your economy
eg we are culling turkeys & pigs for incineration, & are instead importing bacon & frozen turkeys from Europe for xmas
UK farmers facing huge losses, how long before they fold?
Meaning prices rise for consumers...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58895250
Good news is that this is changing from 1st November – announced today! Parents of citizens now allowed in
For real life? Sweet!
Good news!
EDIT: The travel restrictions loosening that is, not the shifting of UK work to offshore suppliers in the name of keeping people with funny accents out of the UK.
