Another “Internal Market” bill (ie additional UK laws to try and prevent NI being treated differently to the rest of the UK, despite signing international treaties, the Good Friday agreement, and the political and economic reality of all Ireland cooperation combined with GB being outside Single Market and Customs Union meaning this will now always be the case).
It'll also be used to ensure that Scotland is kept 'in line' and probably include a couple of difficult/expensive divergences from the EU just to add to the Unionist "but you won't be allowed to join the EU" rhetoric.
I'm confused about that cartoon thing. So are UK animation companies barred from attending Cartoon events because of some law as a result of brexit, or have Creative Europe Media just decided to exclude UK companies arbitrarily? It feels a bit like punishing the little guy (ie the animators) for stuff they have no control over. If they value the contribution of UK animation companies then why not just invite them anyway?
edit =- attempted to post a mildly amusing GIF - didnae work
I’m confused about that cartoon thing.
Brexit. What do you find confusing about it?
https://ec.europa.eu/culture/funding-creative-europe/creative-europe-media-strand
have Creative Europe Media just decided to exclude UK companies arbitrarily?
We are no longer a participating country. "We" decided this.
dazh
Full MemberI’m confused about that cartoon thing. So are UK animation companies barred from attending Cartoon events because of some law as a result of brexit, or have Creative Europe Media just decided to exclude UK companies arbitrarily?
Are you kidding? It's literally a part of the European Commission. You're just doing the "why are we being excluded from the club that we stormed out of?" thing.
You’re just doing the “why are we being excluded from the club that we stormed out of?” thing.
No I'm not, I'm simply asking what law exists which prevents UK contributors attendance at these events? If there isn't one then why exclude them? Does CEM bar non-EU contributors from attending its events by rule, or is it arbitrary? If not arbitrary then how come at the event below is there a company from Chile (and many from the UK) attending? Or are CEM just cutting their nose off to spite their face?
http://www.cartoon-media.eu/cartoon-360/who-is-coming-2021-2.htm
They are speakers.
Here are the rules for project submission...
http://cartoon-media.eu/cartoon-movie-event/cartoon-movie-2022/submit-a-project-1/regulations-1.htm
European
- Any European producer whose registered office is located in a country associated with Creative Europe MEDIA can present a new animation project at the Cartoon Forum.
- Countries associated with Creative Europe MEDIA: the 27 EU countries + Iceland, Norway, Albania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Republic of Serbia, Georgia, Moldova, Tunisia & Ukraine.
Attention: since the Brexit, the UK is not part of the eligible countries.
Like so many things... we could have sought ways to be associated with so many of these cooperative initiatives, even as non-members... but "Brexit means Brexit". Our government wants to cut us off from collaborations and markets... not being a member country is not Brexit enough for them. All ties must be severed. Political ideology before all else.
what law exists
No law exists. But you know that. It’s an irrelevant question. The real question is “why can we not benefit from something our government has elected to not be part of”.
Our government wants to cut us off from collaborations and markets…
I don't disagree, but I ask again why punish the little guy? Clearly it's possible for non-EU countries to be associated with CEM so not being in the EU isn't the barrier. So if UK animation companies/professionals decide they would like to be associated and attend/contribute to events (even if their govt doesn't want them to), why not let them? Why make UK animators suffer because their govt are smallminded arseholes?
Why are they punishing us?!
Why are they punishing us!
Stop being ridiculous. The problem here is not that UK contributors want special treatment. The problem is that a political row being exercised by people far removed from the european (as in not just the EU) animation industry is being allowed to negatively impact people in that industry, through no fault of their own, and for no practical reason.
It's like brexit is a playground fight, and the whole school is then expected to take sides even though they're completely uninterested. Playground politics escalated to the geo-political scale.
allowed to negatively impact people in that industry
Correct. And not just that industry. The penny will drop soon Dazh… the decisions our government make as regards opting out of schemes designed by the EU to bring people together (and not just EU people) directly effects UK citizens. We can’t just say “yeah, our government are isolationist nutcases, but we want to individually opt in”… lovely though that would be.
We can’t just say “yeah, our government are isolationist nutcases, but we want to individually opt in”
Why not? As far as I'm concerned the UK govt doesn't represent me and my interests any more than the Russian govt does. I'm resident in the UK as an accident of birth, as is everyone else who lives and was born here, so it's a bit silly to say I'm can't go to an animation industry event because of that.
The point I'm making here is that constraining people from doing certain things (especially attending a bloody animation conference!) on the basis of who governs them is stupid, and it's not unreasonable to question that, irregardless of the politics behind it.
Clearly it’s possible for non-EU countries to be associated with CEM so not being in the EU isn’t the barrier.
As far as I can tell, if you're not in the EU then you have to apply to join (as a country). Which, presumably, we haven't.
As far as I’m concerned the UK govt doesn’t represent me and my interests any more than the Russian govt does.
I “feel” the same way, but unfortunately the reality is that the actions of your government limits your opportunities whether you like it or not. It could be associated with all sorts of EU initiatives that help citizens of countries well beyond the EU… but it chooses not to, because… EU bad. The consequences of UK government anti-EU choices are deep, far and wide, as the next few years will slowly make clear to the “won’t effect most people” and “just deal with it” brigade.
Why make UK animators suffer because their govt are smallminded arseholes?
What you're saying here is "why not make a special case for UK animators which applies to literally no-one else?"
Which, really, is the sort of thought process that got us to where we are today.
We now have Ian Paisley Jr stating that Johnson told him personally that he was going to tear up / ignore the NI protocol
the reality is that the actions of your government limits your opportunities whether you like it or not
Very true, but it would also appear that my opportunities are restricted by allowing politics to infringe on areas which shouldn't be, and my potential attendance at a european animation conference almost certainly falls into that category. If the organisers of this conference feel an obligation to bar UK contributors because of brexit, then I seriously question their motives. No doubt they feel pressured because of whatever funding is provided by the EU via CEM, but again I would question why any artistic body or industrial body would allow themselves to be constrained this way.
When it boils down to it, some things need to managed at a government/national level (although not many these days, even energy supply is now trans-national), but surely not the animation industry?
And yet like so many you were so keen to accept the result of the vote and get on with Brexit, Dazh. And that despite saying you'd vote remain (which I assume you did). This is one of many examples as to why a second referendum when it was clear what people were voting for with a leave deal in their hands to read would have been a very good idea and "getting on with it" was a very bad idea.
The media duped people into voting Brexit, then into voting for government that was never going to find out what kind of Brexit people wanted because Brexit meant Brexit and no deal was better than a bad deal. The last point might have been true judging by how happy us Europeans are with the deal.
If the organisers of this conference feel an obligation to bar UK contributors because of brexit
They aren't barring anyone. They are a club. We chose to leave the club. That means we can't go to club meetings. It's not hard @dazh, and you aren't usually so slow to get your head around these things.
In this case (and for many other schemes, the EU is always reaching out to non-member countries) "we" could have been guests in the club... even after Brexit... if "we" chose to collaborate... but... Brexit means Brexit... no collaborators.
Of course, "we" means as country... not as individuals. The government have "taken back control", we are now more at the mercy of their political decisions than we were 5 years ago.
And that's the bit he's missing. We (animators in the UK) want to be a part of Cartoon Media. However we (the UK as a country) do not. It's a small price worth paying for our freedom.
But as ever this is all the EU's fault.
They are a club. We chose to leave the club
The EU is a club yes. One which governs supra-national political and economic policy between national governments. But the animation industry? Seriously, if you're trying to argue that it's in the interests of animators to define, govern and ultimately restrict themselves on the basis of national boundaries then that's clearly very silly. Or am I missing something about the strategic importance of the animation industry?
Besides why should EU bother helping when the governments own solution for companies was to set up in the EU. I'm sure Paris will welcome the Business.
You really don't get what working across international barriers entails, do you Dazh? If you think you can just "get on with things" while your government withdraws from schemes that enable cooperation, you're dreaming. Creative Europe, Horizon, Erasmus+ etc have real benefits across many industries... giving all the other countries the finger, because you are anti-EU (rather than just a non-member) has real consequences for real people. Brexit is not just a game. The hard Brexit we have undertaken is excluding us from schemes designed to bring people together... what is the UK government offering as replacements?
But the animation industry?
We aren't talking about the animation industry. The event that UK animators could no longer join in with was run by an organisation called Creative Europe Media, which is a strand of a larger programme called Creative Europe - https://ec.europa.eu/culture/creative-europe
"The Creative Europe programme is open to cultural and creative organisations from EU Member States, as well as non-EU countries. Subject to certain conditions, countries of the European Economic Area, candidate/potential candidate countries and European Neighbourhood Policy countries can also participate in the programme."
If you participate, you pay your membership fees, and you can go to meetings. If you don't, you save your fees, but you can't go to meetings. Jeez.
You really don’t get what working across international barriers entails, do you Dazh?
Oh I do, I just don't agree with them. As I've said before I'm a strong proponent of open borders and free movement. Especially for digital and creative industries which aren't constrained physical geographical barriers. Or are you and others on here now arguing the opposite?
No, but, here’s the rub, it requires National governments to not only consent to it, but to actively be involved in it. To break down international barriers requires national governments to compromise and collaborate as well. To come together. Not revel in standing alone.
I don't see why digital or creative industries should receive special treatment. On the contrary, participants in these sectors often use optimisation fiscale to avoid paying tax as they don't need factories or things that are hard to ovoid tax on. Musicians are amongst the worst abusers and others aren't far behind. I don't want anyone taking part in EU stuff that isn't registered for and paying tax in the EU ideally, and fulfilling similar conditions in any guest countries.
It's just a small part of the unfair competition on a far from level playing field. To maintain the high level of social services, infrastructure, health care, education... the EU needs to be protectionist. The UK used to benefit from and to some extent abuse this protectionism, now it's out I want the EU to protect me from the social and fiscal dumping taking place in the UK.
Oh I do, I just don’t agree with them.
Unfortunately for you, me and UK animators, they do not require your agreement.
I don't agree with brexit but that doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't apply to me.
I bet the offer was made to maintain access for a fee, and old frosty turned it down.
I don’t see why digital or creative industries should receive special treatment. On the contrary, participants in these sectors often use optimisation fiscale to avoid paying tax as they don’t need factories or things that are hard to ovoid tax on. Musicians are amongst the worst abusers and others aren’t far behind.
Sweet Jesus! I’ve read some utter bollocks on here over the years, but that’s up there with the best of it.
The ‘creative industries’ in the UK are one of the few areas where we actually ate at the forefront of things. We are massive net exporters. Or we were. And contrary to that ill-informed, reactionary, Daily Mail-esque horse-shit statement, it generates a huge amount for the exchequer in tax revenues. Or it used to, anyway
But this governments culture wars means that they hate everything they don’t understand (in common with the above poster), and this lot find anything creative absolutely incomprehensible (in common with the above poster). Mainly as they’ve never had an original or abstract thought in their lives. Nadine Dorres is culture Secretary FFS!
Animation is a prime example. We’re actually really really good at it. Perhaps Nick Park is a tax dodger? Who knows? I doubt in Brexit Britain it’s the animators that are the worst offenders
it requires National governments to not only consent to it, but to actively be involved in it.
So back to my original question, is it actually against eu or uk law for Cartoon to invite UK contributors? In this tiny niche case, I don’t understand why governments are even involved, and certainly don’t think it’s good thing that they are. As I’ve said, I think politics might be at play here, rather than laws and regulations. I might be wrong though, and even if I am it doesn’t make it right.
For once I appear to agree with Binners. What I don’t understand is why all the arch-remainers here want to restrict the opportunities of animators to make a living. It’s very odd.
the EU needs to be protectionist.
Jeez, so now you’re arguing for protectionism? Of all the reasons to be in the eu, that would be the last one I chose.
I’ve read some bollocks on here over the years
Bollocks eh.
So which European (and EU) country "homes" an astonishing number of musicians? Clue, it's not Britain and it's not the first place you'd think of as a tax haven.
Jeez, so now you’re arguing for protectionism?
Absolutely, I don't believe in a race the the bottom and the only way to avoid that is protectionism. It's right at the heart of the EU DNA. I find it astonishing that you as a socialist are against protectionism, Dazh. You'll be arguing againts unions next, a form of protectionism that I hope you approve of.
Christ now you’re having a go at the musicians? You do realise most of them are on their arse after the bottom fell out of the cd market when everything went digital?
There you go…. try educating yourself in some actual facts about the creative industries
I understand that having worked in the creative sector for the best part of three decades (I’ve spent today designing point of sale light boxes for Spanish retail) I’ll have to bow to your superior knowledge, having read something in the Daily Express this morning, but you never know… you might add to the sum of your clearly enormous grasp on the issue
is it actually against eu or uk law
No. You missed entirely how things work. Again. I presume deliberately. It is not “against the law”, we just aren’t involved. Because our government does not want to be. They chose for us. They have taken back control.
Wise up Dazh, people who are "on their arse" don't pay tax. However:
https://www.corpwatch.org/article/netherlands-gimme-tax-shelter
I don’t believe in a race the the bottom and the only way to avoid that is protectionism.
Protectionism is the very thing that causes a race to the bottom. It massively amplified and prolonged the effects of the great depression. You might want to read up on some economic history.
I find it astonishing that you as a socialist are against protectionism, Dazh.
A socialist? Jesus, talk about throwing unnecessary insults around. Where have you got that idea from? I'm way more radical and free-thinking than your typical socialist. Not that I think labels are very useful. And yes, I completely disagree with protectionism (unions fighting for higher wages isn't protectionism BTW) as it creates beggar-thy-neighbour economic conditions which ultimately cause deflation which is very bad. It also has quite a good record at causing wars.
https://www.corpwatch.org/article/netherlands-gimme-tax-shelter
/blockquote>The Rolling Stones + U2 != the music industry.
You've getting confused between turnover and paying tax, binners. Amazon and Apple have turned over huge amounts of money in Europe and contributed to the GDP of the economies they operate in, and paid **** all tax.
I'm looking at tax and the way the creative industries avoid it. That was my start point, I'd appreciate you arguing that point rather than call "bollocks" on stuff I'm not even talking about.
I can see I've touched a nerve. Where's the real money in music? Apple and spotify. And you know how much tax those companies they pay in the countries they operate in? None. And where does all this GDP fueling turnover end up? Open your eyes guys, you might stop buying music. One thing I can assure you is that the smaller bands on Spotify based in the UK won't be seeing much of your money.
Did mention that junior is a producer, DJ and also doing a masters in "industries creatives" at Science Po, Paris. I get all this stuff every time I see him. Monetising your talent is really hard because the whole system is based around ripping the little people off and then getting the money to places where the tax man can't get at it.
More protectionism needed. The only good thing is that even the US is losing out so might finally get on board with doing something about it.
You do realise most of them are on their arse after the bottom fell out of the cd market when everything went digital?
Good job taking their music live around Europe is still as cost- and hassle-free as possible!
It is not “against the law”, we just aren’t involved. Because our government does not want to be.
Thank you. So there are no legal reasons resulting from brexit which prevent uk animators from attending industry events in Europe. That’s all I wanted to know.
BTW what our govt wants is irrelevant if they don’t pass a law to make it happen. Priti Patel wants us to bring back hanging, but I haven’t seen anyone be executed yet.
