Some do, some don't. Ultimately it's the same problem whether it's the landlord running a business or renting the property to someone else. The tourism industry encourages people to buy up property and then turn it into hotels/pubs/cafes/restaurants/holdiay rentals etc which forces out all the locals which then requires cheap labour from abroad. If the property owners were taxed (as they absolutely should be) on their assets they would pass the price on to renting businesses or customers which would have the same effect as paying staff more. The end result would still be failing businesses who's margins can't absorb the exta costs.
At some point you’ll work out that it isn’t just about wage levels.
He knows. It just doesn't tally with the 'agenda'.
which forces out all the locals which then requiers
cheaplabour from abroad
The locals who choose to leave, were they all looking to stay and pick raspberries or be a chef? Or be a nurse? People move to make their way in life. “Locals” will not fill all the roles.
People move to make their way in life. “Locals” will not fill all the roles.
Bloody hell how naive. Working class kids don't leave places like the Lake DIstrict because they're seeking their fortune in the land of milk and honey (used to be London, now it's any big city), they do it because they have no choice, and end up in shitholes like Workington and Whiitehaven etc which are nothing more than than white trash ghettoes. Some locals leave, but many will stay if they can afford a roof over their heads, and they are the people who will work in the pubs, cafes and hotels.
They do both. Obviously. Doesn’t mean that those that don’t travel far are ready, able, willing to be a chef. Or pick raspberries.
Salt of the earth white working class heroes can do anything. They just need valuing, man...
A neat little summary on Pitchfork about the state of play for touring musicians and their crews and venues…
https://pitchfork.com/news/the-brexit-touring-crisis-whats-happened-and-whats-next-for-uk-musicians/
@dazh why were EU workers able to do these jobs on minimum wage but UK workers can't?
Answer that if you can.
"@dazh why were EU workers able to do these jobs on minimum wage but UK workers can’t?"
Because they were living 6 to a portacabin?
More answers to follow I'm sure....
Many of the jobs are above minimum wage. But when they are only seasonal they can be far less appealing to “locals” than a “proper job”. Where as seasonal work is exactly what some people are looking for if either only wanting to be away form home for a short time, or wanting to get their first experiences in another country or region they might like to move to later if it clicks for them.
Yeah but everyone in Britain loves work don't thee lad, except the lazy glass backs. Don't know their bloody born.
Single mothers int it. Dole scroungers getting paid more thant the workers like "I know a family downt rode who get 100 quid per kid. They've all got ipones, drive mercs, go on holiday to Magaluf every month and their house is made of flat screen tellies. int prisons they get paid more thant us grafters, play video games all day while smoking bongs and drug dealing on their iphones.
Bloody vegans want everything for free and don't no what reel work is, starring at their ****ing fones all day.
Pounds and ounces I tell thee. The metric martyrs were right, infinitely divisible, none of this French rubbish.
Bring back the birch. Let's get the tanks on streets.
why were EU workers able to do these jobs on minimum wage but UK workers can’t?
UK workers (as in as a full time job) never did a lot of those jobs. A lot (fruit picking) were done by students to get some extra income but not sure what students are doing these days to get extra income but not fruit picking and making beds I guess.
UK students are just getting into more massive debt instead, why fruit pick and knock 3 month's off your 30+ year debt?
Making the cost of studying so high means minimal return jobs have even less value.
Huh, was just googling around from a tangent this thread created.
This is actually pretty smart looking https://www.agrobot.com/e-series
Robot Strawberry Overlords!
*no I’m not saying all U.K. farmers will solve there problems by buying a not yet even available product. Was just wondering how the technology is progressing. Farms have been reducing labour needs for far longer than I’ve been alive, seems a logical next step.
Lolz @ chestercopperpot
lol @ the most vocal haters of JC's Lab party moaning about high rents and a predatory financial system.
UK workers (as in as a full time job) never did a lot of those jobs. A lot (fruit picking) were done by students to get some extra income but not sure what students are doing these days to get extra income but not fruit picking and making beds I guess.
It's an interesting one - I was brought up in the Fens in the 80s and as teenager/student you spent the summer fruit picking or at the Salvesen processing plant - even a couple of our teachers did it.
Was working out that way a couple of years ago and got chatting to a local guy who was a bit younger than me. He reckoned the it changed in the mid/late 90s - more people expecting to go to uni and make a better life for themselves, just didn't want to come back home in the summer and do those hard physical jobs to get a little money.
His theory was that when grants went and student loans came in (timings may be out to support this) the students just didn't seem to want to do those kind of seasonal jobs, and that's when more Europeans started coming over to do them.
His theory may be very wrong, of course.
I was brought up in the Fens in the 80s
Please tell me you had at least one non-functional car in the front garden a Nissen Hut, and a CB Radio mast?
But when they are only seasonal they can be far less appealing to “locals” than a “proper job”.
Business owners (including agricultural) in their 50s around where I'm from appear to feel entitled to a supply of hard-grafting young-ish people, who already have the know-how/skills to do the job, who will come in on an as-needed basis (even within the season) on short notice while being totally available and reliable, for minimum wage. They wouldn't want their own kids doing that though. The ideal candidate sounds like a dedicated skilled-ish person with low self-worth and no ambition but a strong sense of loyalty, who lives with parents and has no regular expenses, just working for some pocket money.
Business owners (including agricultural) in their 50s around where I’m from appear to feel entitled to a supply of hard-grafting young-ish people, who already have the know-how/skills to do the job, who will come in on an as-needed basis (even within the season) on short notice while being totally available and reliable, for minimum wage. They wouldn’t want their own kids doing that though. The ideal candidate sounds like a dedicated skilled-ish person with low self-worth and no ambition but a strong sense of loyalty, who lives with parents and has no regular expenses, just working for some pocket money.
That sounds like the stories I hear about the tattie howkin' back in the day. Turn up in the morning, you, you, you, you etc. rest bugger off. Work your arse off and get a pittance in return.
Don't get me wrong, I've done the seasonal thing (albeit not as hard graft) as a student and got more than just the money out of it, it just depends what you're doing and where I guess.
totally available and reliable,
for minimum wage
Available (seasonally) and reliable (can do the job and don’t head home after the first week)… pretty obvious requirements.
I was brought up in the Fens in the 80s
Please tell me you had at least one non-functional car in the front garden a Nissen Hut, and a CB Radio mast?
Strangely enough, not me (wasn't born there) but my cousins who were.....🤔
Can you hear banjos?
This part of the thread is skirting around the basic point.
Your average Brexiteer wants to benefit from the standard of living derived from cheap(er) foreign labour whilst not being willing to do those jobs themselves or respect the rights of the people doing them. Essentially they regard themselves as exceptional and expect the rest of the world to wait on them hand and foot.
A mate of mine owned a very successful ham processing business. His workforce was largely Eastern European (Polish and Hungarian), pretty happy and lively on the shop floor. They had also organised their own bus from Birmingham to work there (30 miles away). My mate is a fairly 'patriotic' type and every couple of years he would have a pang of guilt about not employing many local folk and recruit some. Almost invariably they turned up late for a few days, then went on the sick, then never reappeared. The deputy manager was a very local bloke who also said "there's no point employing anyone from round here, they all expect money for nothing".
Employers won't pay more for British workers. So we'll end up with deteriorating customer service, standards, quality, productivity etc with rising costs.
If businesses are forced to pay more (on average) for less (on average) They will shy away from investing in plant and machinery. So the erosion of quality will happen via a different means.
If you employ 100 people and you have to raise the hourly rate by £5...
Thats about a million quid per annum (from net unless you hile prices) and probably breaks that business.
I am not defending minimum wage but there are a lot of business models built on minimum wage.
It's not really about minimum wage. It is about 'unit' of work done per £.
If your business becomes 10-20% less efficient overnight you are likely to raise prices, cut back on capex or, perhaps, sell up and cash out.
Yep and UK productivity is shocking
Its awful funny how countries with much higher wages and much lower levels of inequality still have hospitality industries.
Whats so special about the UK that we cannot pay people in hospitality properly?
High inflation, low productivity, labour shortage, overheated housing market....
Mmmm wonder what this will lead to..
We do not have high inflation. We do not have a labour shortage. Housing is cheap here compared to the countries I was thinking of and WTF does that have to do with our hospitality industry not being able to pay people properly
the answer of course is we are too used to having everything cheap built on the back of cheap labour.
We do not have a labour shortage.
Depending on sector. Depending on region. Again, round pegs into square holes. You absolutely can have sectors and regions facing major shortages while others can recruit readily.
It is not about ‘cheap’ labour, it is about having the right workers available, willing and able.
who will come in on an as-needed basis (even within the season) on short notice while being totally available and reliable, for minimum wage
Available (seasonally) and reliable (can do the job and don’t head home after the first week)… pretty obvious requirements.
I could have been clearer - I meant can be relied on to be available to come in at short notice on an irregular basis, a la zero hours type thing which makes it difficult to plan around secondary jobs and other life commitments.
oldmanmtb2
Free MemberYep and UK productivity is shocking
And we're straight away back to a couple of days ago when we talked about what measured productivity really means. Because it doesn't measure productivity.
Lots of happy remainers tonight! (joke btw, sorry I couldn’t help it 😀 )
Had some very excited messages from Italians in Britain (although not strictly remainers, because, you know, denied a vote in that matter).
Its awful funny how countries with much higher wages and much lower levels of inequality still have hospitality industries.
As usual, it's more complicated than that. Firstly a lot of countries do what we did, rely on cheap imported labour. Secondly, countries adapt to their situations, and it's significant changes that cause trouble. If our economy had gradually shifted over a few decades it would have been fine.
And yes, we're used to cheap stuff. But that's not just all about gorging ourselves on luxury items. My parents for example had to spend several months' wages on a washing machine when they were young. They're a lot cheaper than that now, in fact people are often giving old working ones away. Imagine how much harder life would be for a single working parent if washing machines, phones, internet access were that expensive still? And food - UK has cheap food relative to other countries and yet far too many people still can't afford it.
The answer of course isn't cheap exploited labour before you accuse me of endorsing Toryism. It's supporting the poor. That has to happen in a whole variety of ways, not just sticking up minimum wage or getting rid of the cheap labour.
Brexit was about a last chance smash and grab at the last of the postwar consensus before it is diluted away by global economic pressures. The Brexit voting working class have dug their own graves, but because the whole thing was wrapped in a union jack they’ll still headbutt you for suggesting they made a balls up.
Or as I said, when Johnson got his majority in 2019, "**** 'em" - with 'them' being the poor/weak/unfortunate/disabled etc who voted Tory.
Employers won’t pay more for British workers. So we’ll end up with deteriorating customer service, standards, quality, productivity etc with rising costs.
So it's ok to exploit foreign workers to maintain cheap products and services? If your view is typical of many remainers (and I don't think it is) then it's a pretty damning argument. Maybe the people who voted for brexit aren't quite as stupid as you always say they are.
I'd like to point out that I am in favour of immigration but I am NOT in favour of anyone being exploited, immigrant or otherwise.
Of course, exploitation is always going to happen to some extent without protections in place and if there is a surplus of labour. Now that we apparently have a labour shortage, it's going to be interesting.
BUT
When EU citizens came here under FoM, they still had rights and protections to some extent. If people come here on working visas they are much more open to abuse. Example: I worked with Indian nationals on a project who were working in the UK on short term visas. They were employed by Indian companies, but were exempt from the meagre protections that domestic Indian workers had. So they had no sick pay for example. This is similar to how Mexian undocumented workers are treated in the US: "These are the terms - take them and don't complain or I'll tell the immigration services about you"
exploit foreign workers
I think you mean pay foreign workers.
When EU citizens came here under FoM, they still had rights and protections to some extent. If people come here on working visas they are much more open to abuse.
We've made this point many times, haven't we? Where as before EU workers could come here to work in a seasonal job at first, and then move onto other UK work... or go to another EEA country with plans of coming back to make their lives here further down the line... now we'll be tying them to their employers, and giving them time limited visas... this leaves them far more open to being "exploited"... "keep working for us, or leave the country"... we have removed the rights of workers. But they're foreign workers... so who cares?
we have removed the rights of workers. But they’re foreign workers… so who cares?
It's not a coincidence that rates of non-EU migration have started to go up. UK bilateral trade deals with both China and India and African nations like Nigeria are going to come with some surprises for the more "send them all back where they came from" leaning crowd.
Another 'ignored' issue that has made UK citizens less flexible in their ability to take seasonal/short-term work is the sheer amount of red-tape & delays in accessing benefits.
When I left school you could sign-on the next day. You could then take a a few weeks work, and then sign back on. And you'd get your monies (without waiting for weeks).
Every bit of legislation etc since has tightened the screw and made it harder to take seasonal/short-term if you are on benefits. Would YOU risk not having any money for 6 weeks, or risk not getting 'back' to where you are? Especially if you'd dependents.
Global Britain
Should play well to the base
It’s okay, it’s only “temporary”… that nice honourable man you can trust said so.
The UK government already wants a new Brexit deal... before the one that they "got done" has even properly come into effect. What a surprise...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57911148
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-57901928
