Raising low paid wages does not drive inflation much anyway.
wages to attract staff
Which staff? You can’t just pay more and magic up the right staff. These sectors should pay more. And they should be mandated to by the government (so that any competitive advantage from paying less is removed). That won’t result in the right people being magicked up from no where. How much would you want to spend the next few months in Herefordshire on the fruit farms? Could you step in to be chef at a 50 covers pub in Nethy Bridge?
We seem to have a mental block about paying more for goods and services in order to pay a decent wage. Maybe some businesses wouldn't survive, that's market saturation maybe.
I'll pay more for decent products and services if it means the staff get a fair wage, especially if its local to me as well. They will spend their money locally as well, and pay more tax into the system.
It's a leap of faith and culture change that really needs to happen.
I’ll pay more for decent products and services if it means the staff get a fair wage,
I do my best to do this. I don't buy from tax cheats, I don't buy from anti union companies, I do buy from local small buisnesses where I can
Could you step in to be chef at a 50 covers pub in Nethy Bridge?
Pub grub maybe. fine dining no way jose!
I’ll pay more for decent products and services if it means the staff get a fair wage, especially if its local to me as well. They will spend their money locally as well, and pay more tax into the system.
That is dependant on how much spare money you have though, if you are one of the workers on minimum wage you don't have the luxury of paying more and will take the cheapest option you can.
So bit of a vicious circle in that the low waged are buying the cheapest stuff (out of necessity) so will never remove the low wage/low cost that they are impacted by.
"The cheapest stuff" tends to be grown or made abroad though, so is less effected by wage rates amongst the low paid here (and I repeat the minimum wage should be higher here) so inflation for goods bought by the lowest paid is more impacted by the value of the pound, the cost and hassle of importing, and low wage rates in other countries.
Could you step in to be chef at a 50 covers pub in Nethy Bridge?
Pretty irrelevant as there's no accommodation/housing for staff anyway.
Accommodation included/provided. Ready to start? I wouldn't make it past the first meal...
As well as paying more (and that should be happening), you still need to recruit from a wide geographical area. That there are unemployed people in the area doesn't magically fill gaps in the workforce, whether you are short of chefs, fruit pickers... or nurses. Telling EU workers they aren't welcome isn't going to suddenly provide local workers who want to, and are ready to, and are able to, fill roles.
if the economics of running a business do not allow them to pay wages to attract staff the wages are too low
That's a rather one dimensional way of looking at it, what about other factors such as:
Seasonal so low security or short term.
Cost of child care
Cost of public transport
Lack of public transport
Established family roots (partner already has a job for example)
You are completely ignoring these factors and probably a load more. They may not apply in central Edinburgh but they certainly do in rural areas (and even not so rural areas like Largs). If you were to pay enough to overcome these issues then nobody would pay the prices you charge except the genuinely well off who probably aren't interested in holidaying in a has been seaside town with ropey weather when they could go abroad for the same money.
they could go abroad for [s]the same[/s] a lot less money.
FTFY
Pub grub maybe.
I genuinely doubt it TBH. Given that you have no qualifications, no experience, no idea of stock ordering, rotation, prep, or owt like that.
they could go abroad for the
samea lot less money.FTFY
Yep especially if your after a beer and beach holiday.
I genuinely doubt it TBH. Given that you have no qualifications, no experience, no idea of stock ordering, rotation, prep, or owt like that.
Low pay doesn’t always equate to low skill 🙂
Some quick mental maths based on my old business (cafe in Cheshire).
To set staff wages to somewhere between £15 to £20 per hour would put for instance a cappuccino around £4. I’d have needed to add over 30% to most of my prices.
Dunno when you were last in Cheshire Col, but cappuccinos are generally about 4 quid here.
🙂
Its all very well us arguing on the hypothetical effect of inflation on raising wages, but this is a thread about Brexit, apparently
So, given that we have a Brexiteer Tory government in power, do we think that they are looking at this problem and thinking:
a) This is an ideal opportunity to raise the wages of those lower paid, and also to train up our workforce to fill the positions vacated by Eastern Europeans
or
b) This is an ideal opportunity to slash working conditions, now we're free of EU regulation, as we've just temporarily (yeah, right) done with lorry drivers, and also why are we paying people unemployment benefit when theres fruit that needs picking?
I've just got no idea which option they'll take.
Have you?
Does option “b” include freezing the pay of everyone in the public sector, especially the lower paid, and reducing Universal Credit to make low paid jobs seem more reasonable than the alternative (trying to survive on punitively low levels of benefits)? If so, I guess that’s the path they’ll take…
Dunno when you were last in Cheshire Col, but cappuccinos are generally about 4 quid here.
Damn! Now you tell me!
If so, I guess that’s the path they’ll take…
Which kind of renders the last few pages of bickering somewhat pointless
We all know what they’ll do
Ironically for a Tory government, they certainly won’t be leaving it to ‘the market’ as that would most likely result in wage increases, but then this isn’t really a Tory government at all, is it?
Am I the only one who wants to see a Hell's Kitchen with TJ and Gordon?
I think there’s a good documentary to be had with Uncle TJ opening a 100 covers restaurant in Windermere where he pays his recently unemployed staff from Workington 20 quid an hour
Jezza’s Rezza
I’ll get Alan to pitch it….
😃
The latest is that problems with the ‘oven-ready’ EU deal, negotiated, signed and hailed as a glorious victory by Lord Frost and Boris Johnson are all apparently Theresa Mays fault
You couldn’t make it up
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1413630989751013379?s=21
A sobering assessment of this utter shambles from the FT
https://twitter.com/ellyuno/status/1413673114895110147?s=21
This is an ideal opportunity to raise the wages of those lower paid, and also to train up our workforce to fill the positions vacated by Eastern Europeans
Which is why I said earlier they'd f**** up because if their plan was to reduce wages then you don't do that by creating a massive labour shortage.
Ironically for a Tory government, they certainly won’t be leaving it to ‘the market’ as that would most likely result in wage increases, but then this isn’t really a Tory government at all, is it?
Can you explain how a government holds down wages when there's near full employment and a massive labour shortage? It's a simple supply and demand problem, and no amount of government intervention can create a supply of labour without immigration.
Well the whole fantasy of Brexit has been based on ridiculous ‘cakism’
This is no different
I’m sure they’ll fully expect to end immigration while holding down wages.
How?
Well what they’ve done with HGV drivers would seem to point the way. Change the regulations to enable employers to force their employees to work longer hours
I expect we’ll be seeing an awful lot more of that type of thing in their ‘bonfire of red tape’
That’s the whole point of Brexit, no matter what nationalist bullshit they sold to the flag-waving hard-of-thinking
Can you explain how a government holds down wages
By lowering wages (in real terms) in the public sector, and reducing the value of benefits (in real terms), and by making people in the private sector seek (elusive) safety, security and good working conditions rather than demand higher wages… which you do by eroding workers rights and forcing a “rebalancing of the economy” at speed through the deliberate creation of chaos and upheaval in many sectors at once.
Wel they have created an under resourced, inflation driven, isolated economy.
It will not prosper despite the smoke and mirrors.
I’ll give it a year, tops, before we get IDS or one of his ilk saying that people can’t expect to be ‘dependent on benefits’ while their are vacant jobs that need filling
Put your house on it
Don’t fancy pulling pints of Fosters in Wetherspoons?
Tough! Get your arse behind that bar or you can forget about your benefits.
What Binners just said.
I worked in the UK hospitality industry for 20 years, till I moved back to France in 2017. Wages are only one part of the problem for British people. Unsociable hours are a bigger issue. Very few British people want to work on a Saturday night when their mates are going out.
And to be fair to the debate, finding good chefs in France this year is very difficult. With Covid a lot of experienced hospitality staff have changed career and don't want to go back. It is not just a UK problem, but Brexit certainly is not helping.
Molgrips – thats exactly what you said
Mate, please slow down and read better. I said that simply raising minimum wage *without any other controls* would probably drive inflation.
For the avoidance of any doubt, I am in favour of higher wages AND AT THE SAME TIME other controls. Becaue I don't want anyone to be poor. Perhaps print this out and file it so you can bring it out next time you think I sound a bit Tory.
Can you explain how a government holds down wages
By setting a minimum wage on which people base wages and then build a business case on. And before you know it businesses aren't viable if they pay any more.
MOlgrips - that last statement is arse backwards. Its precisely the opposite of that.
Explain?
Without a minimum wage many business are unviable without paying lower and lower wages… because that’s what their competitors will be doing. Of course, your are right molgrips, that in many sectors paying much above the minimum wage can also be unviable, because competitors are not. Accepting that there will always be people on the minimum wage (or even lower if we didn’t have a minimum) is the first stop to acknowledging that the minimum wage needs to be a real living wage. It currently is not, especially for young workers. It’s either that, or… have a universal basic income [thread well and truly off the rails now… sorry].
acknowledging that the minimum wage needs to be a real living wage
Of course, that's the point. But if you just raise minimum wage on its own elastic costs like housing will just be increased by landlords as much as they can to the point that people minimum wage jobs will still be just about manage to pay them with a lot of compromises and struggles that are ultimately unfair. That's why rent controls are needed; or a huge increase in supply.
Rent is the biggy.
Rent is the biggy.
Social housing (council owned not housing association) while an anathema to my dad in the early 70's helped keep private rents under control. Without a large social housing provision the working poor don't have a prayer. The Tory government of the late 70's started the process of screwing the poor over and this bunch of half-wits are continuing the process.
Let's take back control from the socialist empire, and create a free capital economy where China can invest in key infrastructures..no wait.
My son, his partner and baby are renting their first place as a new family.
Rent and child care costs are killing them.
Both working full time but without my financial help every month they simply don't earn enough to "live".
The place they rent is nearly a £1000 a month and is owned by a guy with over 30 properties in his portfolio. The place is shocking. Its had the absolute minimum money spent on it he can get away with for decades.
And there’s the entire problem
We have an economy where the pay for Labour has been stagnant or falling for a decade, whereas the rewards for capital have gone through the roof.
So if you possess capital assets then the value of those assets will have gone up exponentially, but if you rely on your Labour to pay your bills then it’s stagnated, at best
But guess which one you get taxed on? Capital or Labour?
They’re taking the ****ing piss!
I’m sure, post Brexit, that will all change for the better though
Without a minimum wage many business are unviable without paying lower and lower wages… because that’s what their competitors will be doing.
Race to the bottom.
The place they rent is nearly a £1000 a month and is owned by a guy with over 30 properties in his portfolio. The place is shocking. Its had the absolute minimum money spent on it he can get away with for decades.
Unless you've already got the capital.
Which is exactly what Tiny Tories are all about. Use wealth to enforce the status quo. If you're already rich you deserve it and you deserve more.
Tuppeny ha'penny oneupmanship.
Yay us.
I’m sure, post Brexit, that will all change for the better though
Brexit was always a heist, first and foremost. The holders of capital recognised (rightly) that the UK is living far beyond its means in terms of standard of living vs productivity.
Brexit was about a last chance smash and grab at the last of the postwar consensus before it is diluted away by global economic pressures. The Brexit voting working class have dug their own graves, but because the whole thing was wrapped in a union jack they'll still headbutt you for suggesting they made a balls up.
Fossil fuels are nearly gone. What natural material do you mine next?
Answer = stupidity. In limitless supply and a sound investment.
They’re taking the ****ing piss!
Binners man you need to make your mind up. I completely agree with all of that last post, but earlier you were complaining that the landlords who've bought up all the property in the Lake District can't recruit cheap foreign labour on minimum wage. Presumably if we had wealth taxes as you suggest then all these businesses which can't survive because they can't recruit minimum wage european workers would instead go bust because they can't afford the tax on their properties? You can't have it both ways.
the landlords who’ve bought up all the property in the Lake District can’t recruit
Are we pretending that many businesses/employers aren’t also paying rent?
cheapforeign labour
At some point you’ll work out that it isn’t just about wage levels.
