Sorry, but the argument that it protects young people from competition for jobs is nonsense.
When I was 28 I quit my skilled job in the UK and moved abroad to somewhere with better opportunities (for me, not necessarily a better opportunity for everyone) to a country with living conditions that better suited me at the time.
I left my skilled job which meant they had to hire someone to replace me. And that someone would most likely have been more productive than me because they were happier and better suited to the conditions.
Had there been no freedom of movement I would have been stuck in a situation that was making me miserable, ill, and generally highly toxic to whatever environment I was in, both at work and out in the wider world.
Freedom of movement allows people a better chance at finding conditions where they can thrive. Taking that away forces people to stay in places where they do the opposite.
I went abroad to work for a company that was trying to grow business with a big UK client and they wanted to hire a native to help with that. Without me they may not have won the business and that foreign company may have remained smaller.
You've got it arse about face bikeandboots. The smart and ambitious people were those that left and those that arrived picked fruit, served food and worked for low pay in the NHS. Competition for well-qualified, competetive jobs was reduced. Sure I'm simplifying but so were you. The difference is my simplification is closer to reality.
Very often those that left made money, gained experience, married and returned thus enriching British society. I know a few and there are some on this forum. Some of those I know working in France in 2016 can't return because their partners are foreign as far as the UK is concerned. All of the Brits now have French nationality but their spouses would find it impossible to get British nationality before the couples went bankrupt if they went to the UK.
The UK has permanently lost talent.
To the talented Brits who will never return you can add the Brexit brain drain of both funds and talent. Less inward investment and less funding means fewer top jobs; more competition for what remains and that will get worse as GDP differentials reduce the UK's standing.
I really can't see any winners beyond some people rich enough to ride above Brexit.
Most of the 18-30 age group didn't even get a vote at all!
As for the argument about foreign students taking places away from British ones, that could only be made by someone who was either thoroughly ignorant of the situation, or being deliberately dishonest about it. Overseas student fees subsidise the places of British ones, and universities can expand capacity more or less indefinitely. Education is one of the few success stories of British exporting in recent years, so of course crippling that is very much on-brand for head-banging Brexit morons.
One thing you're all violently agreeing on is that Leave was not targeted at people who were:
Outward-looking.
Young.
With intelligence, qualifications, motivation and prospects.
Optimistic about their futures.
All things that used to be seen as desirable - especially in a gifted western democracy that can still offer a standard of living way out of kilter with its true productivity.
My BiL is one of those to whom Edukator refers. PhD (at the UK taxpayers' expense, natch) working in a technical area in the Netherlands, wife and child who cannot live in the UK. He'd have to come over here, get a well-paid job (that itself shouldn't be a problem), then wait 6 months or so, start applying for a spousal visa with an indefinite additional wait and thousands of pounds of fees to front up. All for the right to live here for a few years with his family, no guarantee of anything longer-term.
He's British, and he can't reasonably come and stay here with his family.
Emigrating to the notoriously insular Japan was *much* easier and cheaper when I did it 20-odd years ago (and of course that was with no nationality connection).
Universities cannot expand their capacity when the maintenance grant is worth 60% of what it was in real terms when it was last reviewed.
And governments making foreign students (especially postgrads) feel unwelcome is starting to have an effect too.
Ah, I used the wrong word. The point still stands; loss of opportunity to leave the country for a few years, has low to zero value if you never wanted to anyway.
Hmm I’d rather be working in a bar in Benidorm than Bath thou 🙂
Just because you don’t want to do something shouldn’t stop others from doing it.
Brexit was a criminal removal of peoples rights 🙂
In Aviation, the amazing post brexit agreement allows EU licensed pilots to work in the uk, without reciprocal agreements for UK pilots. The airlines lobbied for it as it gives them leverage to squeeze uk pilot wages. It’s even worse than just isolationism.
It’s a narrow view but if I were a young person at the start or early stages of my career, I’d be happy to not have other countries’ smart and ambitious folk competing with me for the available jobs.
I work for a multinational company supplying worldwide, we have difficulty recruiting engineers who have second languages. Long gone are the days that potential overseas customers are expected to be able to speak English. We are just excluded from those markets if we don't have language representation in those countries.
Speaking from my wife's point of view (She teaches languages at A level and Post A level), intake for languages have fallen through the floor. When she started, she'd have to run two classes for A level French and most of them would choose a language at university. Last year she had 3 A level students & 7 post A level.
It's all very well having ambitious folk, but if the work market is limited to our little island then that doesn't help us either does it?
Thanks for your reasoned arguments. Please do remember that I am pro-EU, am already convinced about the benefits for freedom of movement - at the high level, and for individuals who wish to make use of it. You can argue towards me about those if you like but I'll just agree with you. My point is about consequences of freedom of movement without freedom of trade - people moving, work staying where it is, causing an imbalance that is bad for people at the destination who don't wish to move in the other direction.
They go hand-in-hand.
This is a pillar of the point I'm making. I'm not following you here now; this post sounds like a retort to what I've said, yet it's agreeing with what I'm saying. My doubts are specifically about free movement without freedom of trade.
Sorry, but the argument that it protects young people from competition for jobs is nonsense.
It suited you and I'm happy it worked out. I don't see however how the factors you mention demonstrate that what I said is nonsense. You leaving opened up a job for someone possibly local, but you arriving abroad may well have taken an opportunity from someone who was already local there. I get the point about allowing people to find the place where they fit in best, as it benefits them and everyone. However if that place was where they already lived, and they now have to move away, which they didn't want to, then for them as a self interested individual it's not good.
I went abroad to work for a company that was trying to grow business with a big UK client and they wanted to hire a native to help with that. Without me they may not have won the business and that foreign company may have remained smaller.
Without you as one person, would a UK company have won that work and carried it out here using numerous staff? Nothing wrong there, but there are losers when these things happen.
You’ve got it arse about face bikeandboots. The smart and ambitious people were those that left and those that arrived picked fruit, served food and worked for low pay in the NHS. Competition for well-qualified, competetive jobs was reduced. Sure I’m simplifying but so were you. The difference is my simplification is closer to reality.
Interesting question about the types that moved in each direction. Plenty of smart ambitious people did come here, and I believe this did increase competition for the kinds of jobs they did. So for the ambitious Brit who didn't want to leave, that surely can't be good. I agree with the rest of what you say that losing the freedoms is a great loss overall and a personal disaster for many people.
As for the argument about foreign students taking places away from British ones, that could only be made by someone who was either thoroughly ignorant of the situation, or being deliberately dishonest about it. Overseas student fees subsidise the places of British ones, and universities can expand capacity more or less indefinitely.
Is it not the case that a particular course has a fixed number of places available in a certain year? They could decide to expand next year, but that's no good if you're of age this year. I'm sure Oxford uni doesn't grow all its courses to satisfy the demand; it's exclusive and the best get in.
Just because you don’t want to do something shouldn’t stop others from doing it.
Brexit was a criminal removal of peoples rights 🙂
I agree with you. I am pro-EU and pro freedom of movement, but I'm more cautious about allowing movement of people without freedom of trade. And what I argue is that for a great deal of individuals thinking purely of their own self interest, not having to compete with the best and ambitious from Europe, is a good thing.
School was probably wasted on them too.
School is wasted on people who don't want to leave their own country?
It’s all very well having ambitious folk, but if the work market is limited to our little island then that doesn’t help us either does it?
I agree that at scale the freedom of movement is good. And your trade scenario I believe supports my argument that it should come together with freedom of trade. I am cautious about imbalances which could occur when one is available without the other.
The rejected proposals were not freedom of movement, they were limited four year visas for young people to study or work backed with reciprocal rights to study or work for that maximum period… helping build connections between countries. There are obvious trade benefits that stem from young people working across borders (and you don’t have to leave your home country to experience that if people are over here studying or working with you).
I were a young person at the start or early stages of my career, I’d be happy to not have other countries’ smart and ambitious folk competing with me for the available jobs.
This isn't a zero sum game, from a national perspective. Having more skilled workers creates more jobs. Those companies that used to employ bright young people in the UK would themselves have grown and hired more of everyone. And those bright young people would have shared their skills and everyone would have done more work and gained more skills.
The issue is if there is an imbalance between countries and the rich ones take more than it's share of talent from the poor ones. That is still playing out in the EU however they seem to be also becoming less poor at the same time so perhaps the ultimate aim of bringing everyone up is working.
Without you as one person, would a UK company have won that work and carried it out here using numerous staff?
They needed what we produced and there wasn't a UK alternative. Without a company like ours the UK company would have done without, and thats the key point. Companies can just do without stuff they can't get, but end up performing less well.
At 18 I spent time at an Italian university. Freedom of movement, with or without, freedom of trade is a two way street.
Yes it probably increases competition as there are more folk able to compete, but it also increases opportunities as there are more places to compete.
Net effect? Probably marginal on competition, but the movement, opportunity, diversity you get - fantastic.
And what I argue is that for a great deal of individuals thinking purely of their own self interest, not having to compete with the best and ambitious from Europe, is a good thing
The giggle is that even after Brexit you really don’t have that, if you look at the U.K. Shortage occupation list you will find that for most of the ‘good’ paying jobs you can still employ ‘forrigners’ so your still competing.
It’s not a small list either 🙂
This isn’t a zero sum game
This is the hardest point to get across to people.
You leaving opened up a job for someone possibly local, but you arriving abroad may well have taken an opportunity from someone who was already local there.
Yes, and someone local who moved to a another country then created a job for the local person whose job I stole.
Like it or not, jobs are becoming more and more specialised. You can either adapt yourself and do a job you are not completely suited for or you can change location to somewhere else where the jobs are suited to you. At this stage of my life I'm not really able to move wherever I like but for most young people they are. This is vitally important for many people to gain the skills they need to succeed in the workforce.
I wonder if you'd be in favour of stopping freedom of movement within the UK? Surely someone moving from Middlesborough to London is taking an opportunity away from a local?
Who’d want to move to London?
I used to be there regularly for business and it really is a grotty place. Too hot, humid with everyone else’s sweat, dirty, slow moving, and with that incessant growling hum of traffic and air conditioning - like environmental tinnitus.
Although much of that could be applied to Middlesbrough too I suppose. Possibly not as hot.
What we need is a train (and preferably a car / truck transporter train) straight to Europe, bypassing everywhere in the South East - say no stops after Doncaster. Let the midlands, northern England and Scotland have a fast trade route without the bottleneck that is London and its commuter belt.
Who’d want to move to London?
Don't derail the thread but the fact is there is a lot of people who want to move there (for reasons of which you're unaware) that's why it's so big and why property is so expensive.
Don’t derail the thread but the fact is there is a lot of people who want to move there (for reasons of which you’re unaware) that’s why it’s so big and why property is so expensive.
I was thinking about moving to London for a while and I was amazed at just how easy it would be to find a job down there. Three interviews, three job offers, all within the space of a few weeks. Compared to Glasgow where it was a cycle of application, rejection, and depression, I couldn't believe how easy it would be to move up the career ladder down there.
Ultimately I realised if I set my sights a bit further afield I could find better jobs in places that didn't have the costs associated with London, and that even had some decent mountain biking.
I thank my lucky stars I'm not in my mid-20s in the UK right now.
The smart and ambitious people were those that left and those that arrived picked fruit, served food and worked for low pay in the NHS.
There are plenty in the nuclear industry, mind you it's pretty international regardless but it wasn't really a one way street. For every fruit picker you had a ski bum seasonnaire in the alps or someone working a bar in the med. Even in the shipping industry there were those wanting to come and live here due to the difference in the standard of living.
Note that the second article dates from 2012 and covers trends over the previous 20 years of freedom of movement. 1 in 10 graduates were leaving.
Against that even foreigners that were/are educated and graduated/ing in the UK were/are very unlikely to stay. The brain drain was real before Brexit. Little change there then apart from the obvious change in university recruiting strategies post Brexit.
The part of my post you quoted was a little frivilous but if you dig you'll find it reflects realities.
Being a ski bum is a passage for most people who do it (bin there, done that). More important is their destination.
For sure, I'm not knocking it and it's just as valuable a journey as any other.
1 in 10 grads may have been leaving but the article says nothing about how many are/were coming in, I can't see anything that supports that part of your argument. The first article is fair enough, it makes sense that EU workers will follow the path of least resistance and remain within the EU and other nationalities will fill that void.
If neither of us can find stats on line we're down anecdotes from forum members. When I worked in Val d'Isere the ski bums were amonst the highest qualified people I've worked with in any sector and I've worked in a lot as an English teacher - all of the biggest companies in this region except Total and companies in Barcelona, Strasbourg, Nancy, Marseille. In those companies all the Brits employed were at graduate/management level except one. Foreign workers filling poorly paid jobs in Europe are rarely Brits, the jobs are filled with North Africans, Turks and as with the UK, people from the less properous EU countries. Even the British camp site couriers had better CVs than any of the companies I temped with or worked full time in the UK.
Now think about the forum members who are working or have worked abroad. There's one tradesman, some MTB/ski specific as you might expect on an MTB forum, several IT and many graduates. There was one nurse a few years back but I really can't think of any low-paid British migrant workers.
Of the Brits I know socially here there are four teachers, a university lecturer, an oil engineer, a landscape gardener (a Los Angeles olympic squad swimmer), an aerospace technician and landed gentry. Then there are more of Spanish and Portuguese origin than I can be bothered to count, Polish, Turk, North African - they have much more varied educational backgrounds.
The rejected proposals were not freedom of movement, they were limited four year visas for young people to study or work backed with reciprocal rights to study or work for that maximum period
I do understand that. While they are here however, the effects are the same or similar.
This isn’t a zero sum game, from a national perspective. Having more skilled workers creates more jobs.
I get this too. At the national level, it isn't a zero-sum game, however at the individual level when you're competing for one of 10 jobs on a grad scheme, or one of 100 places on a uni course, it seems that it very much is one.
The issue is if there is an imbalance between countries and the rich ones take more than it’s share of talent from the poor ones.
Yes, and also not just about the talented ones. I remember seeing some detailed maps a few years back that showed some regions of the EU losing 25-30% of their young people to other countries. The opposite applies too when too many untalented people (car washers etc.) move to rich countries, placing greater burden on the resources of that country than the value they produce through work.
if you look at the U.K. Shortage occupation list you will find that for most of the ‘good’ paying jobs you can still employ ‘forrigners’ so your still competing.
It’s not a small list either 🙂
Oh yes, didn't consider that.
I wonder if you’d be in favour of stopping freedom of movement within the UK? Surely someone moving from Middlesborough to London is taking an opportunity away from a local?
No. It's less of a life upheaval to move within a country, and a reasonable expectation for someone wanting to pick a job rather than taking what's available on the doorstep. Interesting parallel though with brain drain, concentration of people, strain on resources etc.
No. It’s less of a life upheaval to move within a country, and a reasonable expectation for someone wanting to pick a job rather than taking what’s available on the doorstep.
The thing is that before Brexit it wasn't more of an upheaval. I agree with the second sentence, before Brexit it was easier for someone poor to move from Wales to almost anywhere in France than London.
No. It’s less of a life upheaval to move within a country,
Not when you're 21.
I moved to Spain at that age. Even given the fact I didn't speak the language when I arrived (I could after a few months) it was still relatively straight forward to find a job, somewhere to live, etc.
And it definitely was just middle class kids on a gap year doing it. Working class kids who were switched on and wanted a change vastly outnumbered the rich kids. I suspect the rich kids were busy 'travelling' while the rest of us were busy working.
Of course, thanks to Brexit, it's no longer that easy.
So disgruntled 21 year olds can now stay home and do a shitty job they hate or sign on instead.
There really is a lack of understanding about just how easy it was to rock up to anywhere you wanted in Europe whenever you wanted. It was literally the same as moving to London. But far more pleasant.
Who’d want to move to London?
Immigrants, loads of them. Maybe the more interesting question is who'd want to move to NE England, Northern Ireland or Wales? Immigrants are avoiding those places like the plague.
This isn’t a zero sum game, from a national perspective.
It's not a zero sum game, but the observed reality is that far more EU people moved into the UK than UK people moved to other EU countries during freedom of movement. If freedom of movement had continued, the massive wave of post-Brexit non-EU immigration probably would have had more (but not all) EU immigration.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-an-overview/
School is wasted on people who don’t want to leave their own country?
On many of them, yes.
Imagine having the level of ambition that couldn't see past only living/working in the country you were born in?
They're not the kind of folk that built Britain, but they are the kind of folk who'll help its demise...
I guess at this point I should also put my hand up that I too took advantage of FOM, we moved to Germany in the early 00's, asked no one for permission - just got a job and then rented a house. I also performed jobs for years that since the UK left even though they were based in the London area would now be filled by those with both UK & EU passport/living rights. Just too difficult managing folk with limited country rights, I know based on an American who was in one of my teams (he ended up getting UK citizenship...).
I see that Brexit patriot Dyson is further cutting his UK workforce by 1000.
I'm guessing the HUGE Brexit wins have been destroyed by the Labour party. In 5 days. Or something.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6p2660ldn2o
There's another rejoin/Brexit petition going the rounds, perhaps in response to events on the other side of the Atlantic:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700005
These days with quite a few EU governments veering off towards the far right I now wonder if maybe we dodged a bullet. I signed anyway because at this point it has clearly had no tangible benefit and it's about time that as a nation, we came to terms with the fact that Brexit is a total turd.
Forget it.
You're not allowed to draw any attention to the fact that's it's a total balls-up. Turns out most chest-puffing Brexity halfwits are actually snowflakes.
Cat well and truly amonst the pigeons, who are looking for worms that have escaped the can.....
Well 'make love to a winged animal that can generaly be found swimming in ponds and rivers'.
Who would have thought it?
I don't like it, any more than you, my friend... but it seems shouty racist 'so-and-so's' are runing the UK now.
Well I've never had so many complaints before about the price of international stamps - when we left the EU we also lost the postage deal we had with it that essentially made the international travel part of stamps free (within the EU). So all international stamps are now £2.80.
The amount of Leave voters that can't get that by leaving the EU we lost this agreement also! Non stop complaints this Christmas.
Cat well and truly amonst the pigeons, who are looking for worms that have escaped the can…..
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/dec/12/majority-of-brexit-voters-would-accept-free-movement-to-access-single-market-uk-eu/blockquote >
Still heart breaking to me what we (and particularly the younger generation) through the lies, half truths and false blame of the EU for the UK's own political failings.Wise heads predicted it would take a few years, but that many people would start to realise what we had lost with Brexit.
One of the reasons my son is in NZ is that he could not get work in the alps, the place he wanted to spend a couple of years working. Last summer two of them looked at work in France, Italy or Austria - no go as they are UK citizens. Grrrr.
Its been obvious for years that the majority want back in to the EU and its growing all the time. the real tragedy here is Starmers conversion to arch brexiteer in his fear of those racists in a few northern english seats abandoning the rest of us and condemning us to stay in the brexit backwater
This could be avoided but starmer is afraid of upsetting a few gammons.
To **** up and believe in it is stupid enough but to **** up with something you don't believe in is certifiable.
Across the EU, pluralities in every country polled agreed: 45% of Germans said they wanted closer relations with the UK, as well as 44% of Poles, 41% of Spaniards, 40% of Italians and 34% of French.
'They need us more than we need them' ... aye right.
I do want to see politicians be more brave and more decisive on this, as the older divisions on this are far less than they were (as the survey in the link above shows), and it's all being rapidly overtaken by pressing current needs around security and economy (read: Trump and Putin etc.).
I don't think Starmer has become a brexiteer, but I think his current position is political expediency which he is holding on to out of too much caution (it's part of the 'ming vase' right?). Don't get me wrong, I'm deeply frustrated by it, and I wish they'd just say yes to student movement, but maybe it's a negotiating point? I think they are holding out on brexit changes because after being lent votes by red wall voters returning from Tory, they are mindful of not creating a 'brexit betrayal' by moving too quickly - you can see how the headlines would write themselves. Unfortunately I think it'll mean improved relations will come later than current needs require, when we have already been impacted by newer more pressing threats, but also it extends the negative impacts/harm of brexit further. Crappy situation really, but I just hope the general trajectory is improved relations that have a meaningful impact rather than a bit of tickling to throw a bone to sad remoaners like me...
Added to which the view that starmer could flick a switch and we'd be able to reopen negotiations straight off is simplistic at best.
Much as I also would like a reversal it's a long way off.
Of course he could have done and still could. When someone tells you who they are believe them and Starmer has become a hard brexiteer from his public pronouncements and actions. He has no intention of taking us back even close to the EU
How can Starmer reverse the Brexit vote - he can't sign an executive order like the Trump can? I am really not sure there is a wave of movement to re-join.
Britain will never again get the preferential treatment it had since 1974-2016 which will make it a harder sell this time round.
Public opinion is massively in favour. Of course Starmer could go for a decent rapprochement with the EU with that public support behind him. Of course we would not get the same preferential treatment and probably have to go for a half in type of deal but it is an absolute nonsense to continue with the economically disastrous hard brexit. But that is the path Starmer has chosen.
Its political cowardice
+1 tj.
starmer is a disgrace.
Public opinion is massively in favour. Of course Starmer could go for a decent rapprochement with the EU with that public support behind him.
The public's opinion is meaningless though really, Brexit is a political wound that's only just closing, and while I'd go back in a second, no one wants the political stalemate that discussions around Brexit would cause. Reform will take more seats from both the Tories and Labour, do you really want to hand them their election slogan for the entire length of this Parliament?
I’ve never had so many complaints before about the price of international stamps
Off-topic, but the cost of domestic post staggers me. What's a regular first-class letter now, £1.85? I can order slave labour electronics from China and get free postage so long as I'm not in a hurry.
‘They need us more than we need them’ … aye right.
It was always blindingly obvious to anyone with a modicum of sense that this claim was plainly ridiculous. Even if we were the greatest country in the world (spoiler, we weren't) we just were one country of 28.
I was about to add "they need us like Tesco needs Londis," then I went to check before posting whether it was a nationally recognised brand and it turns out that Tesco owns Londis. Then my ironyometer exploded.
To * up and believe in it is stupid enough but to * up with something you don’t believe in is certifiable.
Funnily enough my colleague was talking about this just yesterday. His hobby is making and selling pottery. He's had to take his Etsy shop offline for the time being, because you can't exclude NI from your sales area (it's all of GB or nothing) and he can't afford to sell to NI. So he's just selling via a couple of local shops instead...
Starmer has become a hard brexiteer
No he hasn't.
Its political cowardice
Could be. Could be waiting for the right time. Who knows. It's disappointing whatever it is.
How can Starmer reverse the Brexit vote
This is problematic thinking IMHO. There is nothing to reverse, it's done. Using words like "reverse" feeds into the far right narrative, it will just ignite the flames all over again. We need to be having grown-up conversations about going forwards, rejoining rather than undoing.
I've said pretty much since 2016 that we should be arguing for reform rather than remain, too many people interpreted remain as "do nothing." And now we've got Reform UK saying exactly the same thing only wanting to drag us further into the mire.
What did you want to "reform" with a small r in 2016, Cougar. Cameron thought he could reform the EU to the UK's advantage but EU countries were already of the view that too much had already been conceeded to the UK. Sure the UK needed reforming, the way political parites were/are funded, the ability to lie and mislead with impunity, the power of lobby groups, corruption, royalty , the Lords... .
I agree with TJ, Starmer's current policy on the EU is more Brexity than Farridge in the run up to the 2016 vote. Check it, the Brexit enacted by the Tories was harder than Farrage called for pre vote and Starmer won't budge on any of the Tory red lines that lead to the Barnier withdrawal agreement which is a harder Brexit than anyone was calling for pre 2016.
I don't even see it as cowardice, I see it as a closet Tory infiltrated in the Labour party enacting policies Thatcher would have have found too right wing and isolationist for the good of the country.
I want starmer to deliver the Brexit we were promised.
Even the most prominent leaver said you'd be a total ****ing idiot to leave the single market.
Off-topic, but the cost of domestic post staggers me. What’s a regular first-class letter now, £1.85? I can order slave labour electronics from China and get free postage so long as I’m not in a hurry.
£1.65 for first, 85p seconds class.
There's a few reasons - but letters really make RM a loss & parcels don't. Look at other carriers (every/yodel etc) their minimum charges area around £3, that's what a letter should cost. If RM weren't tied to their contacts with the government they probably wouldn't have a letter service at all. Regards china your £1.65 is subsidising the postage from china coming the other way.
Funnily enough my colleague was talking about this just yesterday. His hobby is making and selling pottery. He’s had to take his Etsy shop offline for the time being, because you can’t exclude NI from your sales area (it’s all of GB or nothing) and he can’t afford to sell to NI. So he’s just selling via a couple of local shops instead…
Yep, a mates Crochet business has had to do the same - she can't even sell a digital pattern.
Freeeedumb
Cougar - look at what Starmer says. He espouses hard brexit with no significant rapprochement. He even refused the young persons scheme FFS.
the real tragedy here is Starmers fake conversion to arch brexiteer in his fear of those racists in a few northern english seats abandoning the rest of us and condemning us to stay in the brexit backwater
This could be avoided but starmer is afraid of upsetting a few gammons.
To * up and believe in it is stupid enough but to * up with something you don’t believe in is certifiable.
With one small alteration (in bold), this pretty much sums up my position.
A man who is intelligent enough to have been a QC and DPP being advised to act stupid and pretend Brexit is a good idea.
Brexit is so monumentally stupid that it bends reality.
starmer is a disgrace.
What, for getting elected?
Grow up FFS - what don't you folk understand, the UK has no ability to re-join the EU without the EU deciding we can.
And while we're in this position any 'weakness' on the part of the UK Govt is basically an invitation to be shafted by a competitor, whether it's the EU, USA or even little old NZ.
Those that voted Brexit, and those that implemented have shafted the UK big time - that's where the blame lies, it's got FA to do with Starmer (or any future Govt whatever the Party TBH). We're in 5h1t-creek and we need serious Politicians with long-term vision & aspiration to steer us along, hopefully to a better place - but it'll take decades.
"Brexit is a political wound that’s only just closing"
No it isn't. And it's being kept open and festering by Labour.
Those that voted Brexit, and those that implemented have shafted the UK big time – that’s where the blame lies, it’s got FA to do with Starmer
Starmer voted for the current deal, he even whipped his party to support it. It would be hard to be more culpable. The current situation is the predictable consequences of his actions. And those of others, of course - there is plenty of blame to go round.
At some point someone is going to have to try and fix things.
In 5 years we will have a reform government ,starmer needs to do what he can and do it quickly.
there is plenty of blame to go round.
And to me, the more we focus on that blame, the more circles we go in and isolation we feel.
I do think there is something in it being a Good Thing if more of our Westminster politicians expressed a view that they would like to be back in the EU, despite it not being either in their gift or an easy process. But we need more people saying it openly.
I wonder if by the next General Election we will hear such calls.
And to me, the more we focus on that blame, the more circles we go in and isolation we feel.
I agree that merely focussing on the blame alone isn't particularly helpful, but pretending that Starmer is part of the solution rather than part of the problem is wishful thinking at best. It's not just that he was at fault back then, but that he has promised to persist with the fault indefinitely into the future.
It’s not just that he was at fault back then, but that he has promised to persist with the fault indefinitely into the future.
Precisely.
Centrists increasingly adopting the language of nationalists/populists/extremists is a seemingly common theme on the political threads right now on STW.
Here is a real example - just not one that Lexiteers are keen to acknowledge.
🙂
Brexit is a political wound that’s only just closing
No its not closing and never will while our politicians play the brexit game and lie about europe. the vast majority of UK citizens want back in - even a majority of those who voted for brexit will accept FoM FFS.
Its a festering wound that will not close until we are back in
What did you want to “reform” with a small r in 2016, Cougar.
It's not so much what I want as what was the message. Marketing if you like.
There were many drivers for brexit, one of which was a general disquiet. "This is all shit, let's try something else" was a powerful ballot-winner. Most of the genuine complaints, such as they were, were domestic issues rather than EU issues.
The grown-up thing to do would have been to look at why people wanted to leave and address those concerns. Instead we were plunged headlong into a referendum with minimal notice that vanishingly few people on either side really understood. Many still don't.
But this is old news, it was (jesus!) eight years ago.
tjagain
Full MemberHe even refused the young persons scheme FFS.
I thought it was pretty telling that his public justification for doing so was complete bullshit, he didn't attempt to reject it on merit or on the facts, he went directly to pretending it did something it didn't do and pretending that all the constraints and safeguards didn't exist. I don't think he's a brexiter at all, but he certainly works hard to appear like one. Is that worse? Not sure. Obviously people can shout "to get elected" but nobody can claim it was proven he had to do that.
The weird thing is at this rate we'll very likely hit a point where Tories are more likely to take us back into alignment than Labour
He even refused the young persons scheme FFS.
You can go to Australia, NZ, Uruguay, but not France...
Mind, the other way to look at it, France is cheap and easy to get to, Australia, NZ etc aren't cheap and easy. By banning the easy option young people can't escape and see the UK isn't wonderful.
I closed my online business for good this week - 6 years and not much to show for it. The new product regs for the EU were a further nail in the coffin. Even when I sent stuff to the EU with the correct paperwork, declarations etc they often got returned because the buyer wasn’t prepared to pay the charges.
That's a shame.
The public’s opinion is meaningless though really,
Yep , no party with who wants to sit at the table is going to be putting freedom of movement on the table when you have Farage stirring it up 24/7.
If it’s not on the table you can’t vote for it.
I’m watching a few websites for the ‘older generation’ that like to reminisce about the good old days that have gone thru a few name changes, someone’s getting ready to keep the drip,drip of hate and fear of furrineers alive.
I closed my online business for good this week – 6 years and not much to show for it. The new product regs for the EU were a further nail in the coffin. Even when I sent stuff to the EU with the correct paperwork, declarations etc they often got returned because the buyer wasn’t prepared to pay the charges.
I’ve had a few U.K. bike packing things sent over to here (Spain) and tbh,it’s a nightmare for all involved.
Both companies were really good and everything was sorted but one parcel never arrived and another got import duty applied on prepaid import duty, everything seems to disappear in Madrid for a while then the tax/handling charges start arriving.
I was expecting it and so were the companies but once your at the mercy of customs it’s all bets off 🙂
(Back in the day I broke a plastic end on a boxster roof at the beginning of the holiday after driving to Spain and had a new one from the U.K. in days at my holiday address.)
Yep , no party with who wants to sit at the table is going to be putting freedom of movement on the table when you have Farage stirring it up 24/7.
Farage is the single most successful UK politician of the last 15 years.
And we, the electorate, enabled this to happen.
Off-topic, but the cost of domestic post staggers me. What’s a regular first-class letter now, £1.85? I can order slave labour electronics from China and get free postage so long as I’m not in a hurry.
You did not get free postage, what you got was postage bundled into the cost of the purchased item.
"Free postage" = Marketing
Although I understand why people cite public opinion on Brexit, theres a difference between what people say is important, and what they actually vote for/do in their lives.
Not a great comparable, but public concern about the environment is something that's been cited before on this forum.
In Spring 2024, 80% of people said they were very or fairly concerned about climate change, with 37% very concerned (Figure 1.2). In total, 18% of people said they were not very or not at all concerned, although very few (5%) said they were not at all concerned.
If you can remind me where the Green party ended up at the last UK election? And the environment isnt new news, this is decades in now.
I dont have the willpower to dig through the 2024 existing statistics but some airport (groups) are seeing records.
Manchester Airport welcomed 17.8 million passengers in the first half of the year, with its rolling annual total hitting 30 million in September for the first time in its history.
And then there is the rocket fuel to Farage. I get where people are coming from, but dont expect people to "vote" in their own interests (as you perceive it) because of opinion polls and it making sense to you on a personal level.
Starmer voted for the current deal, he even whipped his party to support it. It would be hard to be more culpable. The current situation is the predictable consequences of his actions. And those of others, of course – there is plenty of blame to go round
And the alternative was No Deal - stop trying to change history.
I agree that merely focussing on the blame alone isn’t particularly helpful, but pretending that Starmer is part of the solution rather than part of the problem is wishful thinking at best. It’s not just that he was at fault back then, but that he has promised to persist with the fault indefinitely into the future.
And the alternative is what exactly?
And you'd have done WHAT in his place?
Captain - how did you vote in 2016 and 2019, or do we need to go thru the original thread to find out?
You did not get free postage, what you got was postage bundled into the cost of the purchased item.
“Free postage” = Marketing
Within the UK I'd largely agree with you. But I'm not talking about big ticket items. Eg,
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1930374811.html
That's a microcontroller sensor I can have delivered from China in a week, for less than a quid all-in. How much of that is postage?
If you can remind me where the Green party ended up at the last UK election? And the environment isnt new news, this is decades in now.
British politics - politics in general even? - suffers badly from inertia. People vote for Party X because they've always voted for Party X. There's no point in voting for Party Y because they've no chance of winning, it'd be a wasted vote.
What the solution to this is I don't know short of dissolving both Team Red and Team Blue and starting again. Say what you like about Rygel but he's very adept at reinventing himself. Despite being UKIP with a different coloured rosette, Reform UK will gain traction because they're "new." Hey, Marketing again!
Hell, look at GB News. It's GREAT and it's BRITISH and it's NEWS, it's machined to directly appeal to the sorts of people Al Murray has been satirising for years. They know their audience in a way that the Left are still failing to grasp.
Farage is the single most successful UK politician of the last 15 years.
And we, the electorate, enabled this to happen.
I agree but tbh, it’s not wholly the electorates fault
Despite being an MP for just five months, Farage is the joint sixth-most platformed panellist on BBC Question Time, appearing 38 times and averaging 1.6 appearances per year. Yet host Fiona Bruce introduced him by saying “making his second appearance as a panellist since 2019”.
He was getting a lot more air/media time than he deserved,he’s been very lucky with his media and news positioning which has given him a bigger platform than he should have.
He’s now got a mouth piece on CBeebies to keep spreading disinformation without fact checking.
He’s just more media savvy than Starmer and has more charisima and has no baggage, as he succeeded in getting the U.K. out of the E.U. Which is easier than sorting out the mess left which is now his new battle cry of ‘Brexit wasn’t done properly’.