It’s gonna get much, much worse before it gets any better. Mark my words. This country is like a substance addict, it’s going to have to hit rock bottom and start digging before it realises that it wants to start sorting its life out while it’s still clinging desperately on to one.
This is how I've thought about this country (the UK) since the referendum. It's stirred up so many nasty views and ideals from the bottom of society that I no longer recognise the country I call home.
I know we always had racists, bigots and gammons in our midst but they were generally hidden away and easy to ignore. I liken it to a bucket of water with mud in it and the UK is a fish swimming around it. If you leave it alone the sand falls to the bottom and the rest is left clear so you can see through it. Now all that has been stirred up and you're left with murky water that's impossible to see through.
Don't know what it all means really though for our future as I can't see through the murky water.
Wonder what might have happened????
Maybe someone called him a racist idiot because of the way he voted in a referendum about trade policy and legislative jurisdictions? No one is saying brexit hasn't made racism more visible, it evidently has, but it was always there either under the surface or in plain sight. Now however many people who voted or brexit for a multitude of non-racist reasons have been labelled as racists and idiots. How do you think they're going to react?
Yeah the racist abuse of non-white and non-English colleagues at both Debs and my hospitals (we work for different Trusts) has both gone up over the past few years and there was a definite flare up in December.
In A and E on New Years Eve a fair few staff got grief, one Doctor being asked if he was finishing at midnight. When he asked why the patient said ' Cos that's when you have to **** off home'.
Similarly people are much more open in sharing racist views, both patients and families, often thinking they've done the NHS a favour by getting rid of foreigners, and eager to let us know like they're helping us out.
I often point out that we are struggling to maintain staffing numbers since our foreign staff have left but it seems to fall on deaf ears.
That suggest you think it’s a deliberate campaign to damage your prospects.
I’m afraid some people voted to do exactly that, to bring people with an international outlook, and greater prospects, down a peg or two. To teach people who don’t stay in their home town, and don’t support the local team, a lesson. I have spoken to plenty of people who voted Brexit not to improve their own lot, but to place restraints on others. There is nothing to be gained from acting as if half the country voted on this basis, most did not, but we also can’t pretend that we’d have taken the path we have as a country without the people voting based on this sentiment. It does taint how many people see their own country now, and also how people outside this country view it.
dazh - IME the racism has certainly got more overt. friends of mine have been told " you have to go home now" and endured other racist abuse
dazh - what non racist reasons are there?
Nice try to trivialise genuine concerns as 'middle class snobs worrying about their foreign holidays', by the way.
But that actually got me thinking about possible benefits of Brexit from my point of view - and I got one.
Sure, a foreign holiday might now take a bit more saving up for, but I reckon it wouldn't be too hard. And it will be all the more worth it because, if the impact of Brexit hits hardest where it was voted for, then chances are there'll be a lot less boorish, lagered up British pillocks at any sunny holiday destination.
If I can do my extra saving by somehow targeting my reduced spending at businesses that are pro-Brexit or owned by Brexity folk, then I reckon that's a win-win-win.
Go tell that one to your Brexity mates.
Maybe someone called him a racist idiot because of the way he voted in a referendum about trade policy and legislative jurisdictions?
So you're speculating that the cause of a racist attack was the fault of a remainer?
Also, we must mix in very different circles as I've not had anyone who supports Brexit tell me it was about trade policy and legislative jurisdictions.
I've heard about retaking the Commonwealth and ensuring that the wealth flows back to us again, the Navy being able to sink refugees dingies without the EU getting uppity about it, stopping the Muslims taking over, finally beating the Germans who've used the EU as a continuation of WW2, stopping foreigners stealing British jobs, to name but a few.
I am talking here about people I meet casually or overhear (in the pub - remember that?) and much of my extended family who are likely a bit more open with me that the general population NOT the people I choose to associate with.
Go tell that one to your Brexity mates.
I don't have any 🙂
I’ve heard about retaking the Commonwealth and ensuring that the wealth flows back to us again, the Navy being able to sink refugees dingies without the EU getting uppity about it, stopping the Muslims taking over, finally beating the Germans who’ve used the EU as a continuation of WW2, stopping foreigners stealing British jobs, to name but a few.
Yup, all things I've heard too, but at the core all these boil down to how we interact (mostly through trade) with other countries and where the laws are made. I'd add in national identiity too, and if people saw the referendum as a vote between being british or not then the result was always going to be yes. Racism was a huge factor, but brexit didn't cause that racism, it just made it more visible and gave it a focus. I'm not really interested in hiding it and being able to pretend it doesn't exist, I want to eliminate it altogether, and from that point of view not a lot has changed.
in a referendum about trade policy and legislative jurisdictions?
Give over with that guff, immigration was always a key point and is intrinsically linked to racism.
“Mr Duncan Smith said that a key question for voters was whether leaving the EU and regaining control of the UK's borders would help limit immigration.”
I don’t have any
Ha ha. Yeah, right-o...
🙄
we also can’t pretend that we’d have taken the path we have as a country without the people voting based on this sentiment
Right, buy why did people vote on that sentiment? There has always been stupidity , xenophobia (it's not necessarily racism, a lot of dark skinned people are both dark AND foreign), resentment. It just went quieter for a while, now it's louder. And that's political.
Yeah, right-o…
It's true. Thankfully they're all able to think about things beyond a schoolyard 'who's team are you on' position and don't just think about how things affect them personally. You should try it some time.
It just went quieter for a while, now it’s louder.
And when it’s “louder” it spreads, and takes over politics, as it has, and starts to reform the country, as it is. Not cheering that one on myself. Also don’t wish harm on people that do cheer it on. I just won’t pretend to agree with them.
if people saw the referendum as a vote between being british or not then the result was always going to be yes
This.
Which is why co-opting the NHS logo for campaigning was a genius move. It helped put an almost uniquely British success up against the way “others” do things. “Look after our own”, and all that low horizon easily fed base politics was so much easier to tap than some people thought was the case. And Johnson and his team have been running with that ball ever since.
It’s true. Thankfully they’re all able to think about things beyond a schoolyard ‘who’s team are you on’ position and don’t just think about how things affect them personally. You should try it some time.
Not going for you directly so don't feel I am but could you outline what you think is the way forward given that most Brexiters do seem to think it's a team thing @we won you lost' etc.
What should I do to get us on the same side?
most Brexiters do seem to think it’s a team thing @we won you lost’ etc.
I don't think that's true though. It's true people saying nonsense like that were very loud, but that doesn't mean there were more of them. I actually think the vast majority of brexit voters now just want to move on, along with most of those who voted against it.
What should I do to get us on the same side?
As I've said many times here, and received much abuse as a result, the only thing you can do is accept they 'won' (stupid phrase but at least it's simple and direct) and then listen and learn. I've got no interest in a corrosive and self-defeating culture war as all it would do is deepen divisions and make everything we say we hate about brexit worse.
It’s true. Thankfully they’re all able to think about things beyond a schoolyard ‘who’s team are you on’ position and don’t just think about how things affect them personally. You should try it some time.
But I thought you were the 'compassionate remainer' who alone could bridge the unbridgeable gap to the poor misguided souls? This being due to your unique position as 'one of them' but who had embraced the light?
A sort of Brexity Kofi Annan. 😆
What a let down.
the only thing you can do is accept they ‘won’
It really isn't.
Not by a long chalk.
along with most of those who voted against it.
no one I know that voted remain is prepared to move on nor should we
A sort of Brexity Kofi Annan.
What does that make you? A remain General Custer?
no one I know that voted remain is prepared to move on nor should we
Of course you/they will. What's the alternative? I'm not saying people have to like it, but they will move on. There'll be much bigger and scarier things to worry about in the coming decades than EU membership. I'm surprised anyone would need that pointing out right now.
listen and learn
Brexiters or someone else?
Either way I'm happy to listen to their solutions to the problems created and how they intend to implement them.
If you mean learn why they were right, I'm not so convinced.
Not entering into a culture war, not that any Brexiteers i know would have a clue what that means.
I simply no longer wish to be involved or responsible for the implications that this shit show brings and that includes all the people that created, delivered and voted for it.
What does that make you? A remain General Custer?
If Custer was in the right, then maybe yes.
Brexiters or someone else?
Either way I’m happy to listen to their solutions to the problems created and how they intend to implement them.
You'll need exceptional hearing. They've had nearly five years and I've heard the sum total of **** all so far.
Almost like they haven't got a clue.
Either way I’m happy to listen to their solutions to the problems created and how they intend to implement them.
I'd suggest that's maybe where you should start then. Instead of 'they' maybe think more about 'we'?
There is no "we"... "we" didn't vote to leave "they" did.
Partisan? yes but also a simple fact.
Seriously do you actually talk to these people? They cant articulate past "foreigners" and "sovereignty" FFS
I’d suggest that’s maybe where you should start then. Instead of ‘they’ maybe think more about ‘we’?
I don't have any solutions, that's why I asked. I'm more than prepared to listen and learn.
No one is ready to listen to solutions, because they can’t engage with what Brexit actually is. Anything suggested that doesn’t get a rubber stamp from Johnson, Gove or Farage is treasonous.
the only thing you can do is accept they ‘won’ (stupid phrase but at least it’s simple and direct) and then listen and learn
The first bit's easy, I've done that. We left the EU, and we now have the outcome of that decision.
The second, I'm less sure. So teach us what you have learned. What can we do to make this alright for us and our children and grandchildren, who overwhelmingly have to live with this despite not having a say or a voice that was heard? How do we all move on together and own this together? I'm accepting of the fact that the country collectively made this decision; I just need someone to now tell me what you need me to do.
I don't lack compassion. I don't want people to suffer because of this, and I'll pay my share of the cost for the decision we took, in Taxes, lost opportunities and the like. But please someone tell me what we have to do. I gave my warnings and my advice, you rejected it, and held the day. My ideas were not wanted, so what do I do now?
What is the plan?
Of course you/they will. What’s the alternative? I’m not saying people have to like it, but they will move on. There’ll be much bigger and scarier things to worry about in the coming decades than EU membership. I’m surprised anyone would need that pointing out right now.
No I will not nor should I
This is by far the most damaging thing on the horizon or in my lifetime. It must be fought against in any way possible. the racist brexiteers ( and they are) need to have the damage they have done pointed out to them at every opportunity. We need to keep on critising it.
It is by no means over
But I hope to rejoin soon as I live in Scotland. If not I will be moving to the EU
I'm not sure why anyone needs any understanding at all if they've got what they voted for.
The Tories dont give a **** about the Red Wall brexit voters they are useful idiots and completely controlled by social media fed bollocks and manufactured "enemies" this electorate is not going to have an epiphany because a few understanding souls like daz have a chat with them.
Want a blunt comparison look at the topics list on the chat part of this site, go to pistonheads and do the same in their general chat.
Seriously do you actually talk to these people? They cant articulate past “foreigners” and “sovereignty” FFS
I'm not under any illusions about the views of people like your family in Ashington (if I remember right), I grew up in the same sort of communities and still visit regularly. I've had fairly normal conversations on the subject with people like this and managed to get somewhere when they stopped looking at me as a middle class snob. On the whole these people just feel abandoned and ignored, and so they feel they had little to lose by voting for a change. Some also believed the lies. My aunt is a good example. She genuinely thought more money would go to the NHS, and then when told the truth basically shrugged and said 'that's no suprise, they always lie and are all the same'.
I've also talked to people at work who voted out. People who have degrees, decades of industrial experience behind them and professional, responsible jobs. Their reasons are varied but not racist. They basically just think we're perfectly able to govern ourselves without being part of the EU and so we should do that. We can disagree on the pros and cons but it's a fairly simple and understandable view.
But now we don’t play a part in governing Europe. And that will impact on us.
And Scotland are perfectly able to govern themselves. And that will impact on us.
We’ve not just pulled at the threads, we’ve yanked them good and proper. And the “nothing has really changed” line is, I’m afraid, not a reflection of reality.
From the conversations I read on social media, and from the last few pages here, that Boris and the far right ideologues in the Tory party have achieved their goal. The nation is divided and it is staying that way. The right and the far left are screaming at each other in ever louder, less decipherable language. The more moderate among us are becoming fewer and therefore less and less important to the political class. The Tories can ignore us. Labour will court us but will lose the far left in doing so. This has been becoming more and more obvious since the referendum. It was the start of "shout them down" politics and campaigning by sheer volume of lies on social media. Nobody comes out of it well now. It's a culture of name calling and blaming and the few left in between the 2 sides will just end up getting swamped when the inevitable culture war comes
I’ve also talked to people at work who voted out. People who have degrees, decades of industrial experience behind them and professional, responsible jobs. Their reasons are varied but not racist. They basically just think we’re perfectly able to govern ourselves without being part of the EU and so we should do that.
Ie " we want noffink to do with furriners"
Its clearly a racist viewpoint especially as the EU never governed us.
the have just bought the racist brexshit and are attempting to hide the racism because they know its wrong
Most working-class Labour voters were always racist, xenophobic, bordering on fascists (as @oldmanmtb has so eloquently illustrated). But they voted Labour because they were working-class and they'd been told that that was what working-class people did. They didn't really think about politics or economics at all. The decline of the unions post-Thatcher started to weaken their connection with Labour, and then Farage offered them something that was absolutely in line with their values, and they jumped at it. When the Tories adopted most of UKIP's policies, it was easy to take that next step. What this means is that Labour will never, ever, get elected again. There are not enough middle-class left-wingers to elect a Labour government on their own, and the 'Red Wall' voters will not return in sufficient numbers. There are only two ways we might get a government that is not Tory in the future - either a reformed electoral system with proper PR, or a 'not-Tory' alliance/coalition of the centre, the left and other progressives. The first one is obviously never going to happen while the Tories are in power, so our only hope is that alliance.
^^^You are part of the rebel alliance and a traitor
^^^You are part of the rebel alliance and a traitor
But Darth Vader was black, right?
But Darth Vader was black, right?
More burnt Sienna
But they voted Labour because they were working-class and they’d been told that that was what working-class people did.
I think it was also very tribal, Labour was expected to look after the working man, people like them, you know good honest white blokes in the main, who were being hard done by the management, the toffs and the furriners. Labour started to lose that on the 90s when it started to become more inclusive and less dominated by the unions.
Fast forward to the referendum and Nige and Boris filled the need which Jeremy tried to, but miserably failed to rekindle the spirit of the 70s.
We will not see a centre left government for decades if ever.
Our rights will be eroded slowly but surely.
We will be directly and indirectly taxed into oblivion.
Retirement age will be kicked so far down the line many will be lucky to make it.
Deregulation will continue at a pace.
Many will have no choice buy to eat imported low quality food.
The NHS will be spun out, sold off, traded for favours.
The rich will get very rich
I’ve had fairly normal conversations on the subject with people like this and managed to get somewhere when they stopped looking at me as a middle class snob
That's exactly what I mean.
We will not see a centre left government for decades if ever.
Our rights will be eroded slowly but surely.
We will be directly and indirectly taxed into oblivion.
Retirement age will be kicked so far down the line many will be lucky to make it.
Deregulation will continue at a pace.
Many will have no choice buy to eat imported low quality food.
The NHS will be spun out, sold off, traded for favours.
The rich will get very rich
Will of the people, innit?
No one is saying brexit hasn’t made racism more visible, it evidently has, but it was always there either under the surface or in plain sight.
No, it's not about visibility. What it's done is legitimised it. It's made it OK to be racist again.
I'm expecting reboots of Love Thy Neighbour and Mind Your Language coming soon to the BBC.
Now however many people who voted or brexit for a multitude of non-racist reasons have been labelled as racists and idiots
In your head.
For ****'s sake, why do you still persist with this lazy rash generalisation? I've explained this time and time and time again, it's like you just want it to be true. For all your ****ing on about dispelling stereotypes you should be better than this. Heed your own advice will you.