You believe its wrong to tell the electorate that Labour will respect their democratic choice?
You know thats not the point. You also know that if the referndum was held now remain would have a huge win. Democracy is a process not a single point in time
I merely want Starmer to be honest and I believe rejoin even in those marginals would be a huge vote winner ( and all the polling shows this). Starmer is so busy chasing tory brexiteer votes he has not realised how much he is losing from the other side. Its going to cost him a majority
would be a huge vote winner ( and all the polling shows this).
It's changing, and some pollsters think it may have flipped over, I'll grant you. But as i've said, 'don't scare the voter' is still the safe (and dishonest, if you like) option.
I wish it were not so, but we cannot afford to lose this time.
His stance is losing him votes and seats tho I am sure. Enough voters will vote green, lib dem or SNP because labour have gone full brexiteer that labour fail to take some seats that otherwiswe they would have done and this is accelerating.
You know thats not the point.
It's exactly the point, you can't have it any other way. One of the reasons that Labour lost the 2019 election was their muddled stance on Brexit
Starmer is so busy chasing tory brexiteer votes
Labour can't win without the votes of folks who voted for Brexit in 2016, or voted for the Tories in 2019.
Its going to cost him a majority
He clearly doesn't think so, and given that Labour just overturned a 20,000 majority in a by-election, and won a Tory seat they've never held since its existed I guess they probably think the advice they're getting about strategy is working for them. Selby voted Leave
revisionist thinking Nickc - the reason they lost that election was the labour rightwingers sabotage and the tory / labour anti SNP pact in Scotland
Labour cannot win either without the pro european votes and he is losing them at a rate of knots
Its deja vu all over again Rodney!
Labour cannot win either without the pro european votes
I'll say it again, Labour just overturned a 20,000 vote majority in a seat they've never won before that a swing of 25 points, in a (relatively strong) leave area. I don't think voters in remain voting areas( largely young urban and city dwellers) are suddenly going to vote for the Tories. For instance: Out of the 26 Manchester seats, just three have a 2nd place at the last election that isn't the Tories or Labour, and just one of those three is a Labour seat. The Lib-Dems just don't have the electoral clout at a GE to put up candidates. Just eight of the 26 are Tories currently and some of those aren't standing next time around anyway.
I just don't think you're right.
None of those are concrete reasons to want the UK back in the EU, Daffy.
Dear god I've seen some nonsense on here but this tops it all. Those things Daffy mentioned are exactly why the EU would welcome us back with open arms*. I cant imagine what else you think would be "concrete". You only have to listen to sensible european politicians across the EU to know they'd take us back.
* yes i know we'd have a much worse deal than we had before and they'd want a long period of very positive sentiment for rejoining
Labour just overturned a 20,000 vote majority in a seat they’ve never won before that a swing of 25 points, in a (relatively strong) leave area.
Although Labour increased their vote (with what looks to be a loan from the libdems) they won because the tories stayed home.
Something which is safe to do during a byelection and sometimes useful to indicate unhappiness.
Its less likely during a GE where people would turn out even if they aint overly fond of the party.
I don’t think voters in remain voting areas( largely young urban and city dwellers) are suddenly going to vote for the Tories.
No but they dont have to turn out to vote for Labour. If we look at Uxbridge they failed to get people to turn out.
Its going to be somewhat biased by Brunel being off but it doesnt look like they did a good job of winning voters across.
I know why Starmer has to pretend to be a nobhead. I just can't vote for someone who does this. My vote, my ****ing choice.
I don’t think voters in remain voting areas( largely young urban and city dwellers) are suddenly going to vote for the Tories.
Of course they are not. They are going to vote for leftish pro european parties - SNP. Lib dem, greens and labour will lose enough votes to them that they will not take many of their target seats
:Lib dems and greens will take very few seats - but will take enough votes off labour that tories retain many seats that a pro europe anti privitisation Labour party would take
its years to go yet and we do keep on debating this. We will see in time but the recent by elections and polling show this clearly. When folk feel they have an alternative that is pro europe and anti privitisation some will vote for them. These are votes labour needs and IMO they are assuming these folk will hold teir nose and vote labour. Well thats not happening IMO
I know why Starmer has to pretend to be a nobhead. I just can’t vote for someone who does this. My vote, my **** choice
I agree on the principle, but if enough people do the same, the law if unintended consequences will bite us all the ass.
I agree on the principle, but if enough people do the same, the law if unintended consequences will bite us all the ass.
And thats something for Starmer to consider isnt it? If he isnt offering anything more than slightly less tory than the tories he shouldnt be surprised if his cunning plan fails.
I'd love Starmer to declare his intention to gradually roll back Brexit but the simple fact is he will be slaughtered in all the right wing press and propaganda channels.
They totally destroyed Corbyn in the public's eyes and might well succeed in doing the same to Starmer.
Nothing can change till the Tories have gone, I'm willing to vote tactically in the GE for whoever is likely to oust them.
Standing on principle is lovely if you want the Tories in power for another 5 years.
I mean, can you honestly imagine another 5 years of this?
No f****** way.
I'll be voting Labour as they are the party most likely to get rid of my local Tory MP in my constituency.
I really don't understand a lot of you. Surely the first step in reversing Brexit is to remove the Tories and show Europe that there's a firm, sensible hand on the controls? The next step is about education, showing why and how we're better off, how it works for us and how that EU return benefits the regions damaged by Brexit. Showing Europe there's a growing sentiment to rejoing, not just in a few regions, but nationwide. SKS/Labour, unlike the LD or the SNP, doesn't have the luxury of only appealing to a certain proportion of the electorate, he has to have broad appeal. He's relying on those who want to return to remember how vocal he was after Brexit and to notice how carefully crated the Labour Brexit message is. If you can't do that, if you need it explained, if you need Labour to shout it from the rooftops to get your vote, then you're dumber than those turkeys who voted for Christmas.
SKS/Labour, unlike the LD or the SNP, doesn’t have the luxury of only appealing to a certain proportion of the electorate, he has to have broad appeal.
Errmmm yes. Thats the point.
New Labour did this, to a degree, offering a range of policies aimed across the board.
Starmer is offering a range of policies aimed at the tories.
then you’re dumber than those turkeys who voted for Christmas.
The problems with this besides it being a fantasy is that if you do buy into it you are buying into supporting politicians lying to get office. So hope you didnt complain about Johnsons lies?
Starmer has very publically become a Brexit apologist who as TJpoints out has renounced the idea of a level of integration that would allow a significant improvement. He was amongst many campaigning for remain before the vote notably:
Prime Minister David Cameron
Chancellor George Osborne
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond
Home Secretary Theresa May
Business Secretary Sajid Javid
Welsh Secretary Alun Cairns
International Development Secretary Justine Greening
Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt
Communities and Local Government Secretary Greg Clark
Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin
Environment Secretary Elizabeth Truss
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster Oliver Letwin
Secretary of State for Education Nicky Morgan
Secretary of State for Scotland David Mundell
House of Lords Leader Baroness Stowell of Beeston (not in House of Commons)
Secretary of State for Defence Michael Fallon
Secretary of State for Energy Amber RuddSecretary of State for Work and Pensions Stephen Crabb
Paymaster General Matt Hancock*
Chief Secretary to the Treasury Greg Hands*
Chief Whip Mark Harper*
In somewhat more intimate remain company after the vote when Corbyn called for immediate use of art.51 or whatever number it was. And now he's joined most but not all of the above with a policy of now it's done accept it and make the most/worst of it.
If he had wanted to give Britain a realistic chance of rejoining under a Labour gouvernement he would have had to be seen to be properly pro-European and pro-rejoin and fight every law change towards divergance. He hasn't, he's part of the problem and Europeans can see that.
Labour's Brexit message isn't about forever, its for right now, right after this election when we wouldn't have a hope in hell of rejoining Europe anyway. This paves the way. This is the start, this is proof of re-alignment with Europe.
Some weird stuff going on in this thread 😂, have to agree with Daffy's stuff about why we'd be welcomed back, with the addition of the reality that the EU is changing and has changes since we left, with the Russian issue, they have Pro-Russian EU members, EU members assisting Russia and on the other side, countries who want to do more for Ukraine and more against Russia. It'll bubble away for a while, but i think there might be more breakdown within the EU over the next couple of years due to this.
Will we want back in, well first is getting rid of the tory government, next is softening the feelings across the nation, building bridges, etc and that'll take time, more than one term in power for Labour or Labour/Lib Dems. Again, with the Russian issue and other issues around the world, we may see UK/EU agreements that make life a bit more easy for all.
As for the negativity of Daffy's list, i'm scratching my head that folk on here bang on about how easy it'll be for Scotland to get into the EU, for reasons that are way less than on that list.
Brexit but the simple fact is he will be slaughtered in all the right wing press and propaganda channels.
They totally destroyed Corbyn in the public’s eyes
Errm, no, Corbyn didn't take a stance on brexit until it was too late, he even 3 line whipped his MPs into voting FOR brexit.
Turns out he's all for cooperation (socialism) as long as it's on his terms and not including the EU, so not socialist at all, just another authoritarian grifter.
The voting public, it seems, have very short memories.
Where is he lying? Spell it out to me
So he is going ahead with these right wing policies? Its hard to keep up with the apologetics here and how we are supposed to magically read his secret plans.
If you want to rejoin (in your lifetime) vote SNP, PC, SF – depending on which country you live in.
SNP and PC don't want to "rejoin" - they want independent countries to join for the first time. (Bizarrely, this involves enthusiasm for mini-Brexit, where a free trade and movement union with the closest trade partners is broken up in favour of a promise of an union with other, geographically more distant, partners). SF doesn't want to rejoin at all - Ireland is already inside the EU, and SF wants the north of Ireland to be reintegrated with the southern part.
Where is he lying? Spell it out to me – you’ll need a bloody good “alternative” dictionary.
He is lying about making brexit work. Its gaslighting pure and simple
That's not what gaslighting means. Gaslighting is tricking someone to doubt their own sanity by lying about what has already happened. You might think that Starmer is lying when he says "I'll make Brexit work", but it's not gaslighting whatever happens.
yes it is because he is trying to convince us brexit can be made to work when it cannot
Its gaslighting pure and simple
Don't be ridiculous. It's standard politics.
yes it is because he is trying to convince us brexit can be made to work when it cannot
Sort of, that’s the slogan, but the specifics are what’s important and those are spelled out and in each of them it’s about sorting out the crap which is causing grief to both the UK and the EU. Look at the details. Sorting out the NI border, setting policies which work for Britain. Tell me, our biggest potential trading partner is who? Right, the EU, so if we align our policies, that works for Britain, right? We’ve still got control and if we want to change them, we can, but why would we it would be ruinous, just like happened after Brexit, right?
SKS is a lawyer - the devil is in the detail.
It really is not. I have never seen anything like that before in my life. Insisting he can make brexit work we he and us both know it cannot be made to work. Its a whole other level from the usual fake promises frompoliticians
Its a disgusting position that means many of us are unable to vote for labour
I believe in the honesty of SKS, I really do, but I’ll be voting LD as 1.) I’m a card carrying member (and a LD 😂) and 2.) I really want to try and force a coalition and removal of FPTP.
Do you really think he believes in brexit and believes he can make it work and that there is no case for rejoin? all things he claims
It really is not. I have never seen anything like that before in my life. Insisting he can make brexit work we he and us both know it cannot be made to work.Its a whole other level from the usual fake promises frompoliticians
Its a disgusting position that means many of us are unable to vote for labour
You’re a precious little flower, with a very selective memory aren’t you? “A whole other level”. Really? I mean REALLY?
Farage, BoJo, (Brexit) Trump (wall) Clegg (fees) Macron (retirement), Blair (WMD), Sturgeon (once in a generation), this list goes on. All of them have reneged on far greater promises.
Its not the renege on promise - its the fact its an outright lie and he knows it is but he is trying to gaslight us into believing he is going to achieve it
totally differnt thing
IOh - and once in a generation was not from Sturgeon and not official policy
Do you really think he believes in brexit and believes he can make it work and that there is no case for rejoin? all things he claims
SKS has never said he believes in Brexit - you’re putting words in his mouth. What he said was “we need to rebuild trust with the EU and get a better deal for Britain” Making Brexit work doesn’t mean in the same way as the Torys think or want. As both you Edukator and everyone else has said at length, there’s no current case for rejoin. You have to make it work, rebuild trust and THEN rejoin.
Exactly what SKS has said since July last year.
revisionism of the highest order. I am not putting words in his mouth. this is what he said
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62034754
Labour's plan, he said, would focus on "unblocking" the government's Brexit deal by removing barriers to trade with the EU and taking steps to resolve border issues in Northern Ireland.
None of which is possible without raproachment with the EU which he is stating he will not do
anyway - its all going round adn round with entrenched positions. agree to disagree
As with the climate thread TJ - I’ll leave you to your VERY entrenched mentality. Have fun in there.
Daffy - just sometimes you could consider others viewpoints? I know thats a bit rich coming from me but pot kettle black 🙂
revisionism of the highest order. I am not putting words in his mouth. this is what he said
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62034754
Labour’s plan, he said, would focus on “unblocking” the government’s Brexit deal by removing barriers to trade with the EU and taking steps to resolve border issues in Northern Ireland.
None of which is possible without raproachment with the EU which he is stating he will not doanyway – its all going round adn round with entrenched positions. agree to disagree
That's exactly what you want to hear from a politician trying to win votes, moving forwards instead of gazing at the problem for another few years, how the hell could anyone at Labour or any other party promise to rejoin the EU when they get in power and a) keep that promise and b) get a good deal if they do.
We left the EU, it's in the past now, we are someway down the road to managing the effects, and have suffered the worst parts of it so far, to reverse course now would be more money, time and effort down the drain, especially if we're telling the French, Spanish, Italians, etc that we're desperate, we need time to make it more appealing to the EU for us to join so we don't end up getting done over twice!
You want to hear a politician lying and gaslighting and stating things both us and him know is false? OK. He cannot acheive his stated aims without the raproachment he has ruled out
Brexit is not in the past. the most damaging bit is yet to come
Brexit is in the past, we left 3.5 years ago, the most damaging bits were through the break up and negotiations, as well as renegotiating, what is on the horizon is unknown, unless you know more than most, of how world matters will effect us worse than the EU, just now we're seeing the Ukraine conflict, Russian aggression elsewhere, wildfires decimating southern Europe and other issues, inflation being rampant due to these issues is going to cause issues for all.
Again, still trying to work out why such berating of Starmer for just stating if they get in power he'd fight for a better deal/relationship and fix the issues they've seen with Brexit and the management of this by the current government.
1) we have not implemented the import controls that we have to do legally - when we do it will cause utter chaos. thats the bit that has not happened yet and will be more damaging than anything to date
https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/jul/13/next-phase-brexit-bad-for-diet-health-wealth
2) Because he is stating he wants a better deal while ruling out anything to get it. Its pure stupidity and an attempt to con us
he knows very well that what he wants cannot be achieved without the rapprochement he has ruled out
You want to hear a politician lying and gaslighting and stating things both us and him know is false?
No.. no.. FFS TJ I never said I wanted any of this. I'm trying to explain to you that your black and white interpretation of events isn't how people or politics work.
he knows very well that what he wants cannot be achieved without the rapprochement he has ruled out
He also knows very well that:
- Nothing he says will survive to the next leader, possibly even the next term or even the start of this one
- He needs votes, from people who won't notice or care if he moves closer to the EU in subtle ways
- After being elected he's not bound by anything he says now, he can always cite changing circumstances - this isn't a manifesto and even those almost never get stuck to.
Politics has always worked this way, so I've no idea why you're zeroing in on this point over and over again. I think that you just don't like him and are looking for reasons to bash him. Everyone does this, by the way, including me, you really do just need to be aware of it.
I initially supported Starmer. I thought he would be a good leader if dull. His lies over brexit turned me against him as did his attitude towards Scotland
I cannot support a brexiteer which is what he has become
He needs votes, from people who won’t notice or care if he moves closer to the EU in subtle ways
and he clearly does not need pro european, anti privitisation pro democracy voters or he thinks that they will hold their nose and vote for him where he is sadly deluded and the daily mail readers will never vote for him.
Moving closer to the EU in subtle ways will not acheive what he says he wants to do. He cannot solve the NI issue or improve trade without rapprochement and he has ruled this out. thats a dishonesty on a very basic level. what he is saying is that he will continue to make the UK poorer and marginalised .
You want to hear a politician lying and gaslighting and stating things both us and him know is false?
that was in answer to Argee
Politics has always worked this way
I have never seen such from anyone but the tories inthe past. Its that he knows he is lying and promising the impossible, we know he is lying and promising the impossible. No one trusts a word he says as a result and he has lost all credibility
Brexit is still the number one political discussion I hear and I hear it most days
He willbe found out in the election campaign because brexit will still be a live issue and he is not very vulnerable to pro EU parties. SNP will make hay from his hard brexit stance
Its very simple - I and many others cannot vote for a brexiteer party and one led by someone telling lies about brexit. the byelections and polls show clearly that this approach is losing him votes adn will stop him gaining seats that would otherwise be winnable
I’m trying to explain to you that your black and white interpretation of events isn’t how people or politics work.
I have been following politics since before you were born. I know how politics works. I have never seen such a betrayal of the population from a labour leader and a leader going so strongly against the public mood when the public want a rapprochement with the EU by 2:1 and he will not even follow them let alone lead
I totally understand and get your point. I do not agree. His stance makes labour impossible to vote for for many of us.
Its not a black and white interpretation. He has made definitive statements. No CU,no FOM, no SM thus no raproachment with the EU thus no solution to the trade issues or NI. thats the simple truth of his position. NO weasel words, no room for interpretation. total black and white position he has taken - the hardrest of hard brexits is his position.
We are never going to agree on this
You think he is merely playing to the crowd and actually will do something very differnt to what he says he will do. I do not.
No CU,no FOM, no SM thus no raproachment with the EU thus no solution to the trade issues or NI.
Those aren't the only ways to move closer to the EU, we've discussed this. You're choosing to ignore it all because you don't like him.
You think he is merely playing to the crowd and actually will do something very differnt to what he says he will do.
No I think he will do something subtly different, or more likely just not do anything whilst having conversations with the EU behind the scenes that we'll never hear about.
Those aren’t the only ways to move closer to the EU,
They are however the only ways that will achieve what he says he wants to achieve
anything else will not alter the trade or NI issues.
I do not like him because of his brexiteer position. Its not that I attack him because of my dislike of him. I had high hopes for him and supported him until he turned full on hard brexiteer
They are however the only ways that will achieve what he says he wants to achieve
He says "make Brexit work" but that could mean absolutely anything. Your definition of 'work' is only one thing, everyone can have their own definition of what 'work' means. That's the point of political slogans. It's so wooly that nearly anything could be said to have satisfied it from some angle or other.
the point is there is no "making brexit work" in any value or interpretation of work
We both know its an utter disaster and we are yet to see the worst of it
yes it is because he is trying to convince us brexit can be made to work when it cannot
That's not gaslighting. You might think it's bullshitting or lying, but it's not gaslighting. Stop gaslighting me about what gaslighting means...
Gaslighting is the subjective experience in which an individual's perception of reality is repeatedly undermined or questioned by another person.
IMO this fits that definition
"make brexit work" My perception of reality is that this is impossible. He is trying to convince us it is
Ok enough! round and round we go
You don’t really need to believe in brexit. It’s happened, it’s an immutable fact that it’s happened. It’s not like debating whether or not climate change is happening or Covid existed.
Trying to make the best of the shitshow we have rather than shouting about what a bad idea it was seems sensible to me..
Brexit is not complete. We still have to put in import controls which will be very damaging
I agree with yo we should be trying to reduce the damage. its a shame Starmer has ruled that out and thats why I object to his position. He has ruled out doing anything significant to make the best of the shitshow
Daffy – just sometimes you could consider others viewpoints? I know thats a bit rich coming from me but pot kettle black 🙂
Good Lord, TJ - I try, but for the life of me, I can't understand the logic of your reasoning on this or on climate.
In this, you and I agree that Brexit is a dumpster fire, you and I agree that it needs overturned, but (and as with the climate thread) you propose absolutely no solutions, just an entrenched idealism to a particular vision without any regard for the practicalities. I'm an optimist, but also a pragmatist. You're an idealist.
Your view is that Labour should go full force against Brexit, but the polls don't support that. It's at best 48/35 with a whole lot of undecideds and when that came to a vote, many simply wouldn't want to re-run it again, so that advantage would shrink. Even if it didn't, that rejoin vote would be heavily split between L/LD/SNP, so would Labour get a majority when the Tories would claim most of the leave vote? I'm not so sure.
You think it's all or nothing, but we don't need to be part of the EEA or EU to allow easy movement of people - we can simply relax or remove visa requirements. It's not FoM, so it's not a toxic issue, but it makes it simple to allow Europeans to work here in the UK and hopefully visa versa with EU agreement.
You see? You've got control of your borders, you can choose your policies (they're not dictated by the EU), but you choose NOT to be a dick with them, you understand that it's beneficial, that it helps Britain to have a more open door policy to the EU - You've made Brexit work for Britain (you've delivered control but chose not to apply it). No one on the leave side can claim you don't have control of the borders, no one on the remain side can claim that we're separated from Europe. It removes a massive argument from the leave camp and shows how alignment HELPS rather than hurts.
No CU and no SM means no meaningful advantages to the UK. Not on a wide scale. We can buy our way back into some bits (at probably 50x the 'price' we had previously) and those sectors will feel some benefit. But getting anywhere near what we have lost back? Forget it without CU & SM.
So who are YOU voting for TJ, which unicorn party exists in your world?
No CU and no SM means no meaningful advantages to the UK. Not on a wide scale. We can buy our way back into some bits (at probably 50x the ‘price’ we had previously) and those sectors will feel some benefit. But getting anywhere near what we have lost back? Forget it without CU & SM.
That's just utter rubbish. Norway isn't part of the CU/SM but all it's policies and practices are aligned to the EU so there are little to no tariffs and checks at the borders. They benefit in trade as would we.
Again, it's not the rejoin solution, it's a practical, pragmatic step towards it.
I really do not know in tbe borders. Probably green. My vote will make zero difference to the liklihood of a tory government as the tories have no chance. My seat is a safeish snp seat with labour second and green 3rd. So my seat will be anti tory no matter what.
So my choice is a pro European anti privitisation pro democracy party where i have a choice of 2
Infortuatly my snp mp is a right diddy. Labour candidate last time hopelessly compromised by the stat notice green candidate last time a good egg. Greens have a chance of taking the seat
Ill decide for sure closer to the time once i have seen the polls but its highly unlikly to be labour because of their brexit stance
TJ - then vote SNP to ensure they get in
It doesn't matter whether a seat goes to Labour, SNP, LibDem or Green because if you're not voting Tory then you need to vote for whoever will ensure they don't get the seat and/or into Govt.
My seat will not be tory no matter what. Unfortunately my SNP mp is a utter diddy who lied to my face. Makes it hard to vote for her. she was one who was surprisingly elected in that landslide for the SNP where a bunch of diddies who should never have been near the HOC got elected
So my choice is…
…very different to that faced by most people voting in most seats in the UK at the next general election.
Look, I think we all know your opinion on this TJ. You’re mostly pushing at an open door as to the advantages of being an EU state, but seem to be ignoring what everyone else is facing come an election, and what could follow it in the years immediately after it. Maybe back off just a smidge for a little while.
Makes it hard to vote for her.
And this children; goes some way to explain why we've had Tory governments for 24 of the 37 years I've been allowed to vote. Nobody's personal interaction with just one member of a political party that one time they said something you don't like is not (underlined repeat) NOT a good enough reason to discard your solemn duty and responsibility to make sure the Tories don't win. Unless you are actually a Tory ****; You vote for the person with greatest chance of making sure the Tory either 1. Loses, or 2. has a reduced majority, that's the social contract with are supposed to have with each other.
we don’t need to be part of the EEA or EU to allow easy movement of people – we can simply relax or remove visa requirements.
I mean that certainly makes it easy for foreign people to move easily to the UK. It doesn't make it easy for UK people to move easily abroad!
I totally agree. However tories have no chance in my seat. It SNP 13000 majority, labour in second place, tories well behind in 3rd place with a constantly dropping share of the vote thus pretty much zero chance of them winning
If I were in a labour / tory marginal the decision would be much harder of course
Its not that she said something I did not like. Its that she promised to meet with us over the Stat notice scandal pre election, kept on changing the date of the meeting until after the election then refused to meet with us
this is a significant issue locally that has cost Edinburgh residents hundreds of millions and the council tax payers tens of millions. Me personally it could have made me bankrupt and homeless if I had not fought so hard. Still has the potential to cost me £50 000. Its been a 20+ year struggle.
Wouldn't the MSP be the better point of contact, guessing your MP is Deirdre Brock, probably more her team being blockers, she must hold monthly surgeries though for those trying to get her or her team to remember?
Anyway, as others have said, i think everyone is in agreement on this thread that Brexit was a joke that caused nothing but problems, the thing that grates me most just now is seeing Farage in the last few weeks running around like a wounded soul because his bank account was transferred from Coutts, and even now, getting public apologies from Coutts and the BBC, this man stood up and lied to an entire nation every day to push Brexit, where's our apology from him?!
It was the fact she said she would meet with us ( a pressure group) and then refused to once elected with a series of lies along the way. Yes its Brock. It was her directly - I was a party to the correspondence and she will not discuss it at surgeries either.
for a prospective MP ( as she was then) to agree to meet with us pre election ( we wanted to know her stance so as to decide if to vote for her) then she kept on changing the date of the meeting until she was elected then once elected flatly refused to meet. ie she was pretending she would do something about this to get our votes then refused to even hear us. It was clearly a deliberate attempt to get our vote by lying
If I were in a labour / tory marginal the decision would be much harder of course
No, it really isn't.
There's very little to separate Tories and Labour on Brexit. For me, Brexit is the seminal UK political event of my lifetime - a rejection of progress and collaboration for the common good based on a pack of lies and driven by racism and xenophobia. It is not a fad or a trend, but a pivotal point where stupidity triumphed - and then revelled in its own stupidity.
I have to vote for a party that is openly against self-harming stupidity. I cannot vote Labour until they tell the truth - Brexit is a horrendous mistake. Even if they then say "that we have to live with for the foreseeable future unless we want to unwind bits of it". This is not what Starmer has said. He has stated that there is no economic case for rejoin. That is bollocks. He knows it is bollocks, but here he is - an intelligent former QC - having to debase himself saying he believes Brexit can be made to work. Like the straight A student in a comprehensive who has to pretend to be 'fick' just to fit in. It is undignified, unedifying and laughable.
I cannot vote Labour.
Libdem or Green it has to be.
^^^
Here is Keir Starmer, former QC, pretending that stupidity can be made to 'work'.
Here are the only two appropriate responses:
😂/🤦♂️
Honestly, how can anyone with more than two brain cells believe in (and thus vote for) that?
Say it straight. It's a colossal **** up that needs to be reversed as far as possible as soon as possible.
I understand that, I admire your conviction.
I hope you're not in a marginal area where that vote counts though. If the tories get back in as a result, that would be an act of self harm on similar scale now to Brexit.
I know technically we can reverse it in another 5 years, but the damage they could do and the impact longer term can't IMHO be underestimated, if we allow them another 5 years to complete their 'project'. And I know the 'labour = same thing / different rosette' challenge that'll be thrown back, but it's a two horse race where least worst option will have to do.
That's the idea of democracy - if you have red lines as a voter you have red lines.
I will not vote for anyone who perpetuates the lie that Brexit is anything other than a total **** up with no upsides. That is pandering to stupidity and prejudice and I will not condone it with my vote.
#usefulidiots
It's a handy term and IMO adequately describes a number of the posters' above...
I'd sooner be lied to by a politician trying to get in to start working on undoing the damage of Brexit than be lied to again by the bastards who are going to make things even worse.
lied to by a politician trying to get in to start working on undoing the damage of Brexit
which politician is that? surely not Starmer as he has ruled out anything to undo the damage 🙂
*runs away*
Starmer has painted himself into a corner, then.
If you're confident he's doing a full on lie, then vote for him. If I could be happy he was definitely going to treat idiots like idiots, I'd be with you.
But, word of warning, if you like the notion that Starmer is lying about undoing the will of the people* you will find some serious disagreement coming your way from our STW pet ultra-leftists.
*The will of the people being to fully implement and perpetuate the myths around the biggest polirical victory in living memory for the far right in the UK. 🤪
Liz Trusses economics advisor, making a brexit prediction back in 2015
Ah but it all would have happened like that if not for the anti growth coalition
anti growth coalition
Indeed. That well-known hotbed of lefty activism that is the international money markets.
Truss was too daft even for most of the 'new tory' voters to take seriously. She should have blamed brown people in dinghies - much more likely to 'cut through'.
😂😂😂😂
Those of you who keep claiming brexit will not be an issue at the next election. today I got a piece of propaganda ( leaflet) from the SNP
1st piece. labour tory coalition in Edinburgh council, second Brexit calling out labour for being brexiteers
Labour are going to have to answer for their brexiteer stance at the next election and here at least its a huge vote loser for them. 70% rejoin. 15% stay out 15% do not know in my constituency - and its was not the most remain in the UK IIRC
Labours brexiteer stance has cost them the chance of my constituency