too right - a paper that is no way soaraway enough.
Leavers also have to remember that they actually voted to rip something up and cause a huge change (which they were repeatedly told was for the worse for 99% of people). I can't see there being the same level of disbelieving anger if the result was the opposite.
That is the thing that has always made me utterly dumbfounded about Brexit. The information was there that it would be a *ing disaster for most people. And yet 'we' chose to do this.
Utterly *ing incredible. It still is, after nearly five years.
I find replying to this thread is affecting my work and my life in general.
Hence the reason I haven't posted much on here of late.
I've tried to see the justification for voting Leave. Be it petty vengeance of the "at least it will hurt others more than me" kind, the notion of 'sovereignty' or whatever. But whatever thought process I try to go down I end up either with a kind of nihilistic spite or just total misguided gullibility as the real root cause. And I can't justify either of those.
So I prefer simple bemused bafflement now. Combined with looking after me and mine.
Trying to fathom the logic behind the illogical is pointless.
I’ve tried to see the justification for voting Leave.
Now, that has been done to death.
If we take the gammons who voted to "send them all back where they came from" out of the equation, I think the reasoning behind your average joe voting leave is - was - largely ignorance. And before Daz gets his "calling leavers stupid" erection again, I'd say the same was true for many remain voters also. I heard shortly after the referendum, "I just didn't know so I voted leave because I thought more money to the NHS was a good idea." For a lot of people it was practically a coin-toss, or at least a one-issue decision. Has anyone ever asked a leaver why they voted as such and received a list? The referendum was too hasty, no-one (however they voted) had any time to think.
The narrative has changed though, and it's been retconned. The reasons we're hearing now, such as we're hearing any at all, are not the same reasons we were hearing four or five years ago.
And now we find ourselves in 2021, "ignorance" no longer washes as an excuse. They've had five bloody years to learn something.
The information was there that it would be a ****ing disaster for most people.
Ah, but that was "project fear," remember. And we'd had enough of experts, hadn't we. Heaven forfend that we might want to listen to someone who actually knows what they're talking about.
The concept of "project fear" really was an absolute masterstroke by Leave. It's what won them the referendum IMHO. You can just dismiss anything you don't like the sound of without requiring any further argument. And here we are today, having had enough of experts, the Idiocracy prevailed. It'd almost be funny if it wasn't so predictably depressing.
Still. Iconic blue passports.
That we can't $%^&ing go anywhere with.
But even actually actively voting to change anything is most likely a bad idea if you haven't got the first idea about it.
The world exists as it does for a reason - largely arrived-at solutions that drive consensus that drive policies that drive laws. So opting for 'any change' versus stability, in the absence of any information or brain cells, does not make sense.
Even if the bloke who nearly killed himself cementing his head into a microwave had to go to the bother of actually doing it. In the absence of any prior knowledge that cementing your head into a microwave might be a bad idea, the most logical answer is to not go out of your way to try.
And, to be clear, this is a kind of 'thought' experiment on my part. There is ample evidence that cementing your head into a microwave is a bad idea. Just like there was plenty of evidence (detailed pamphlet through the door anyone?) that voting Leave was a really stupid thing to do.
Unfathomable, and I've stopped trying. It is enough to drive a sane person around the twist.
And if your attitude to voting on important issues is based on the toss of a coin then you have no business voting on those issues. Stick to Britain's Got Talent.
The concept of “project fear” really was an absolute masterstroke by Leave. It’s what won them the referendum IMHO. You can just dismiss anything you don’t like the sound of without requiring any further argument.
I give you, in different clothes, the medieval argument against anything different/disliked/scary - "WITCHCRAFT!"
It wasn't a masterstroke. Quite the opposite. The remain camp was damn foolish for assuming that people would use their head.
The remain camp was damn foolish for assuming that people would use their head.
Yes, but the con artists yelled 'PATRONISING METROPOLITAN ELITE' every time a remain voice asked people to 'think'.
I got into a spat with cinnamon girl a long time ago about all this. The argument itself was sparked by a pretty out of order comment I made, so was mostly my fault.
But my argument back to her was to look at the people you find yourself agreeing with. Who looks at Nigel Farage and thinks "I trust him"? Who looks at Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson and sees him as a man of the people and someone you would trust? Who thinks about the Britain First nazis and doesn't think "it might not be a good thing to be on the same side as these people"?
If nothing else, look at the company you are in.
That's it from me again. I'm not going back down the spiral of this thread!
Has anyone ever asked a leaver why they voted as such and received a list?
Yes, my favourite was "too many cars on the Stratford road" which on further questioning as to how the EU was responible for that led to "foreigners". The argument that the extra traffic might be down to people such as themselves visiting the huge retail park that has developed fell on deaf ears.
"I give you, in different clothes, the medieval argument against anything different/disliked/scary – “WITCHCRAFT!”"
This is quite appropriate. What we are seeing both here and over the pond is the end of the age of reason. We have regressed to a state of medieval superstition, a world of pitchforks and ducking stools.
A few months back I had a look at the first few pages of the original Brexit thread and it was interesting to see how it started as a reasoned and measured debate. That didn't last long, though I don't put that down to forum members behaviour. What rapidly became apparent was that the Leave contingent rallied around a pack of lies draped in naked racism and xenophobia. It very quickly became nothing to do with Europe and all about how the UK could be divided and destroyed in order to pay a dividend for the tiny few.
Any reasoned discussion became impossible. Many of us realised the nation was facing some sort of coup and that evil forces were looking to profit from disorder. I myself had many reservations about how the EU was run and was not a supporter of the European Parliament elections, (minority effect, look it up of you don't get it). However the greater threat posed by leave and the exponentially negative effect it would have on the (soon to be ex) United kingdom far outweighed any of my reservations. It quickly became apparent that the true patriots were on the remain side.
Oh, and I'm glad Dougie is still posting.
Dannyh makes a good point, if you're agreeing with Farage and Mogg then you've generally taken a very wrong turn somewhere.
A few months back I had a look at the first few pages of the original Brexit thread and it was interesting to see how it started as a reasoned and measured debate. That didn’t last long, though I don’t put that down to forum members behaviour. What rapidly became apparent was that the Leave contingent rallied around a pack of lies draped in naked racism and xenophobia.
As one of the few posters who posted on the old thread in its early days and is still occasionally posting, this is complete bollocks.
I’ve asked for my account to be deleted anyway, (not sure how that works) as I find replying to this thread is affecting my work and my life in general.
Good for you, I am sure it will be beneficial, but I wouldn't worry about what it written on this thread, obviously there is a lot of obnoxious and unpleasant stuff, but most of the rest is ill informed drivel,
That Hyde piece, as ever, is on the money. And a reminder that the “project fear”, “stop talking your country down”, “think positively”, “cake tomorrow” approach wasn’t just a ruse to win in 2016, but how we are now governed.
“There is no border in the Irish Sea.”
“There and no non-tariff barriers.”
————— ————— —————
“Reject the evidence of your eyes and ears.”
Going to lay out for us how you’d solve the postBrexit NI issue Mefty? You’ve had five years.
lot the obnoxious and unpleasant stuff, but most of the rest is ill informed drivel
Ho ho, that's "obnoxious", "unpleasant" and "uniformed drivel". 🙂 And entirely in character from one of the Oxford "elite" who gave us Brexit.
Genius, Mefty!
Here's frurther evidence that your claims that Brexit won't unduly hurt the city are "bollocks":
As one of the few posters who posted on the old thread in its early days and is still occasionally posting, this is complete bollocks.
when I looked back it was seemed to be a lot of Jambalaya regurgitating Vote Leave stuff & THM calling him out for lying
wonder what they both think now?
Shame THM's 'grown-ups' never showed up, isn't it?
Going to lay out for us how you’d solve the postBrexit NI issue Mefty? You’ve had five years.
Plenty of solutions, just they require a degree of pragmatism, and that requires a counterparty who actually values the GFA.
EFTA, EEA and single market. There we go, the only sensible solution.
Plenty of solutions, just they require a degree of pragmatism, and that requires a counterparty who actually values the GFA.
You're talking in riddles again, Mefty. Which "counterparty" to which party? And "pragmatism with regards to which issues? Posting just one or two solutions would be helpful.
You won’t get any Ed.
“of course I have a solution … it goes to another school”
There are lots of measures we are, and can, put in place to fudge the issue, but they will always full far short of what is really needed… all of UK and all of Ireland being in the/a Single Market and Customs Union.
all of UK and all of Ireland being in the Single Market and Customs Union.
The first step is a credible political party with that in its manifesto. It goes a step further than Norway which is in the single market but not the customs union. As a European I'd find that entirely acceptable, with the UK making financial contributions to the EU equivalent to Norway in terms of GDP.
Article 16
all of UK and all of Ireland being in the/a Single Market and Customs Union.
and we are off with the fairies
"If nothing else, look at the company you are in"
Once upon a time about half a million people used to vote for the NF or the BNP. Margaret Thatcher wasn't racist enough for them. Neither was Ian Duncan Smith or Michael Howard.
Im listening Mefty, what are your specific solutions? Not broad strokes stuff, specifics.
But even actually actively voting to change anything is most likely a bad idea if you haven’t got the first idea about it.
Of course it is.
But if you don't have the first idea about something then "this is shit, let's try something different" is a compelling argument, and indeed was another driving factor. All you need for that tactic to work is to silence, dismiss or denigrate anyone who is trying to tell people otherwise.
Project fear, we've had enough of experts, easiest deal in history, cake and unicorns.
There is ample evidence that cementing your head into a microwave is a bad idea.
Devil's advocate: Is there though? It's readily apparent to anyone with a modicum of sense but demonstrably not everyone is so equipped. Do you have the peer-reviewed double-blind cement-head-microwave experimental trial results to hand? Maybe that roaster* thought he was a pioneer** in his field of research?
(* - no oven pun intended)
(** - Panasonic, Kenwood...)
And if your attitude to voting on important issues is based on the toss of a coin then you have no business voting on those issues.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeell as much as I'd love to agree with this, means-testing voters leads to the "why do you hate democracy?" argument. No-one outside of the people who we democratically voted in as our representatives had any business voting on these issues.
It wasn’t a masterstroke. Quite the opposite. The remain camp was damn foolish for assuming that people would use their head.
Sure it was. You misunderstand me perhaps.
"Project Fear" was never a Remain campaign, it was an artificial Leave construct to dismiss the opposition. And it was monumentally effective.
Dannyh makes a good point, if you’re agreeing with Farage and Mogg then you’ve generally taken a very wrong turn somewhere.
As one of the few posters who posted on the old thread in its early days and is still occasionally posting, this is complete bollocks.
I think you might be the only one of the original guard still remaining. Ironically.
Plenty of solutions,
Describe one.
The leave campaign never considered NI, like so many other things they were able to dismiss it as 'project fear' and ignore it
Its why neither they (nor Mefty) can come up with any idea how to make it work post brexit , CU & SM were fundamental facilitators of the GFA
Good interview with Vote Leave staffer here explaining how little they new /cared about it
Surely if you just fill in the forms in all CAPS ENGLISH, that would work, yes?
We got this
Surely if you just fill in the forms in all CAPS ENGLISH, that would work, yes?
It may help to type more S-L-O-W-L-Y as well.
The leave campaign never considered NI, like so many other things they were able to dismiss it as ‘project fear’ and ignore it
Tbh they figured out early on there was more was no point in engaging discussion at a reality level and selling unicorns was a better proposition.
Cue the new Britannic trading empire but no road maps to how it’s achieved.
(One of the leave groups did actually have a document with more meat on the bone on how to Brexit but it was subsequently dropped)
IMHO It’s still an ongoing unicorn selling operation, five years behind it and and plenty more ahead of it.
It’s a political McGuffin.
The NI issue was well known. I assume the remain campaign decided not to make an issue of it because they thought it wouldn't help. They may have been right, the level of knowledge of and care about Irish issues in the rouk is not great.
But the problem with that came later after Vote Leave won. The issue was not taken seriously enough early enough, and there was the disastrous decision to send the s. 50 letter early which closed the window of opportunity, when UK held some cards and could attempt to deal with it bilaterally.
I assume the remain campaign decided not to make an issue of it because they thought it wouldn’t help.
This isn’t what happened. Just one example… a former Conservative PM and a former Labour PM appeared together in Derry in order to grab headlines specifically about the damage a Leave vote would do to the Good Friday agreement.
IMHO you couldn’t/shouldn’t really have offered Brexit as an option because of the NI issue.
Zero F’s are given once the bombing of high St shops stopped and it all ‘mysteriously’ went away and the ‘problems’ isn’t a word you hear nowadays.
Boris wasn’t holidaying at Brighton or at home when they redecorated no 10’s garden and he forgets politics is not always harsh prose.
It’s in the past thou and the past isn’t the now so we’ll have to see how well this plays out 🙁
@Kelvin yes, it was known and many people made the point, but the Remain campaign did not make a major issue of it in their publicity etc.
https://digital.library.lse.ac.uk/collections/brexit/2016
It may be mentioned in that lot but it was not prominent.
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1360901302771994625?s=21
https://twitter.com/simon4ndorset/status/1360876933685407747?s=21
It may be mentioned in that lot but it was not prominent.
Please don’t do that. The Irish question was raised again and again during the campaign. It never went away. It just never cut through with the public as it was dismissed as “project fear” and “a lack of imagination”… it was SEP for the Leave campaigners, and the voters, especially English voters, were happy to see it that way.
I don't understand the "please don't do that" kelvin.
The Remain campaign, in its actual campaigning stuff, did not make a big issue of it and I am sure they thought hard about whether to to so or not. Individuals on the remain side obviously said what they thought, there were many voices just like there were many leave voices, and quite a few of the remain voices banged on about the Ireland issue. But the campaign didn't, it was barely on the bus let alone emblazoned across the side of it.
ETA I was always talking about the official campaign, not "people who campaigned for remain during the campaigning period", you may have interpreted my original post more broadly than I intended.