I’m not advocating anything more than power being closer to the people, and politicians being more accountable. That’s the primary method by which people can protect themselves from nefarious governments, not looking to other countries or supra-national bodies to do it for us.
I’m not convinced by that assertion. Parish councils aren’t known for representing their parish very well.
Managing a stable currency, and protecting countries from living Argentinian or Venezuelan type situations (or Germany in the early 20s)
Ed much of that list you spent a long time writing unnecessarily is not exclusive to being part of a supranational union. You're taking things that happen in the EU and crediting their existence to the EU, when that's evidently not the case.
I'll take issue with the one about currencies though, because it's clearly wrong. Or did you miss what happened in Greece and is bubbling under the surface in Italy and Spain? The euro has been a disaster for almost everyone apart from Germany. The single currency doesn't protect countries from devaluations or inflation, it leaves them exposed because individual countries can no longer use monetary policy to combat them.
Parish councils aren’t known for representing their parish very well.
I'm pretty sure if we went to the effort of reforming democracy Parish councils would be abolished without a second's thought. Although I suppose creating a pointless talking shop to keep the local busybodies away from everyone else is as good a tactic as any other.
My local Parish Council is significantly more useful than my local council...
Your parish council can't ensure you can sell to anywhere beyond the village hall...
https://www.ft.com/content/0dd14877-93a3-43aa-83b5-822abadeff33
"It's been absolute murder," said Alan Powell of the British Distillers Alliance, which represents independent & craft distillers. "We are not in a good place at the moment."
Oh... big surprise...
Powell blamed a shortage of customs agents for the delays.
The only thing you can do is hold them to account, make their actions visible to voters, and enable voters to give them a mandate.
You seem to have this idea that voters always know what's best. Where'd you get that idea?
That’s the primary method by which people can protect themselves from nefarious governments
The nefarious government we have is here precisely because people voted for it. So we've removed a layer of government - how is that going to make our remaining layer better? It's not.
I didn't miss what happened in Greece, a number of EU countries blocked the issuing of European bonds so the ECB was unable to fulfil its role as a lender of last resort at sensible interest rates. That is not a failure of the EU it is the consequence of member states giving the EU/ECB sufficient powers and resources.
Things have improved since then, the Covid debt being underwritten by the ECB with the support of member states. One of the benefits of Brexit for Europeans is that the absence of the UK has moved the balance of power away from austerity favouring countries towards solidarity favouring countries.
I’m pretty sure if we went to the effort of reforming democracy Parish councils would be abolished without a second’s thought. Although I suppose creating a pointless talking shop to keep the local busybodies away from everyone else is as good a tactic as any other.
Ok I admit I took the illogical extreme.
But since January 2020, Westminster does seem to be getting itself a reputation for cronyism and corruption like never before. It’s certainly not an advert for moving away from the supranational to a more local democracy in order to promote accountability.
Just yesterday there was yet another story about contracts being quietly awarded to Friends of the Tory Party. And I don’t doubt if Labour, or LibDems, or Monster Raving Loonies were in power all that would change is whose friends got the dodgy deals.
I admire your aspirations. But it don’t think it works.
And that’s before we consider the problems Europe going for a big old war once a generation or the specific problems of the 1930-40s that the EU as a supranational organisation has, if not eliminated, then detuned a spectacular amount.
But since January 2020, Westminster does seem to be getting itself a reputation for cronyism and corruption like never before
Whilst shutting down any scrutiny of its actions 🙂
Well one mans Brexit wins going to be another’s loss I suppose.
The problem is that in the West we hold democracy up as an ideal, a goal, an end, which it isn't - the end is good government, democracy is just a deeply flawed means to try and achieve that. Deeply flawed, but every other system is worse.
But by considering democracy itself as the goal, it implies that the people are bound to make good decisions in everyone's best interests; and if we could just tweak the democratic process we'd automatically have good government. This isn't true. People are for the most part decent, or can be encouraged to act as such, but for the last 40 years the emphasis has been on the opposite. And here we are.
Democracy is essential. But if you think that a successful well functioning democracy is just about having the right to vote for whoever governs you, and not about the checks and balances on them, and protection from them for the citizen, especially those in minority groups, or about jointly integrating with neighbouring countries to foster cooperation and understanding between the people that live in them, read more history.
+1
fundamental flaw of democracy, what is of interest to the people isn't necessarily in the interest of the people. If you have an engaged electorate you have a chance, if you have an electorate who only cares about love island you're screwed.
Isn't the problem with the "take back control" argument that power or control at any level of government is an illusion. The Parish council can talk, request and talk some more. Local government controls a large amount spending, but within tight guidelines and controls form government. The same could be said of devolved government. Within government, individual ministers have are lobbied by industry and are constrained by domestic and international law, spending and trading agreements.
fundamental flaw of democracy, what is of interest to the people isn’t necessarily in the interest of the people. If you have an engaged electorate you have a chance, if you have an electorate who only cares about love island you’re screwed.
Indeed it's a flawed system, amd still wide open to industry influence (bribery and corruption) but it's the most fair system we have, as long as there are checks and balances.
Social/liberal democracy seems to be the best thing the human mind can conjore for a better overall society. But I'm all ears, if anyone has a revelation.
Benign dictatorship.
There’s no such thing. This is why a steadily developing rule based system agreed with partner countries is part of the answer. Even if it upsets both the anarchists and those that yearn for a strong national leader with no constraints on their actions.
The big problem in the UK is 'jobs for the boys'.
If you donate a few hundred grand to an MP, you'll get a multi million pound contract for ferrys or PPE or whatever, it matters not what the goods are, or if you can deliver.
It's bribary and corruption.
This is the the largest problem with the UK's increasingly more nationalist attitude.
It’s the easiest thing in the world to dismiss those you disagree with as stupid or ignorant.
And this perfectly highlights why I wrote what I wrote, because I knew that if I didn't then you'd jump on it. You've been banging this drum for years and it's a straw man, I literally said the opposite of what you're rallying against in the second half of the sentence that you've conveniently failed to quote. It's seemingly a useful stick to beat people you don't agree with though.
Some people are stupid. That's an inescapable fact. I agree 100% with you that calling them stupid doesn't help matters, isn't going to win them round, and isn't a very nice thing to do generally. But that doesn't make them cleverer.
Ditto ignorant, but that shouldn't be an insult, there's plenty of things I'm ignorant of. I'm astonishingly poor at Geography. Chemistry passed me by aside from knowing most of the chemical symbols on the lower end of the periodic table. I'm wildly ignorant on great swathes of History.
The status quo is always harder to defend against some illusory unicorn-land in these circumstances
voting for any type of change was preferable to keeping it the same
This is kinda strawmanny too. The status quo has been paraded about in the same manner (and by the same people) as the concept of project fear. But this isn't the only option and should never have been presented as such. The alternative to Leave should not have been (only?) Remain, but rather Reform.
You can’t rely on any government to do the right thing. The only thing you can do is hold them to account, make their actions visible to voters, and enable voters to give them a mandate.
That worked out well for us last time we tried giving the populace the power of mandate, didn't it.
This is another Page 2 argument. "The people" cannot be trusted any more than politicians. Cf. brexit. What they think they want and what is in their - and everyone else's - best interests are not aligned.
How do you think a referendum to abolish tax would pan out? Would doing so be a good idea?
"The people" want to deport immigrants because the NHS is understaffed. But they're not stupid, or ignorant, oh dearie me no. Well what the **** are they, then?
It may prove more worthwhile to discuss the practicalities of living and working in the grim reality of post brexit land.
We (the majority on this here forum) have to cope with a country that to be frank has demonstrated its true colours.
I am checking out (not literally) and plan to contribute as little as possible, i dont give a * if the great unwashed have to sit in their own shit and beg for means tested benefits so be it.
My natural socialist tendencies have been shelved, i never thought this would happen.
Its hard to explain how much i despise parts of our society which i would have defended to the hilt a few years back.
And these people are part of my family, they are sadly thick as shit and more importantly dont give a * about any of the economic ruin that brexit has brought upon many people.
I am going to buy myself a nice little spot in the south of france and spend six months of the year sat in the sun. I will send my family members a few selfies... this will underin their view i have had advantages they didnt. Funny as ****.
Many who campaigned for Brexit, and then manipulated post referendum politics to get a hard Brexit, would call that a win oldmanmtb2. Don’t fall for their game.
Don’t fall for their game.
Oldmanmtb2’s gone full on ultra Tory 🙂
It’s an interesting point thou.
We (the majority on this here forum) have to cope with a country that to be frank has demonstrated its true colours.
I disagree. Very nearly half of voters voted against Brexit, but also a fair few either didn't care or were aware of their own ignorance. And since the vote a lot of people have realised that they've been duped. So I don't think the 'true colours' argument is fair, especially when directed against an entire country. I don't want you talking as if I'm culpable for this.
Social/liberal democracy seems to be the best thing the human mind can conjore for a better overall society. But I’m all ears, if anyone has a revelation.
How far into this do you want to get? I'll keep it short(ish). The problem with democracy is that the voters are not sufficiently engaged or empowered. Instead of facilitating good democratic decision making, our system of 'democracy' (I use quotes because it's not really democratic) does the opposite by removing power from voters and giving it to a tiny few representatives who promise to do stuff that they interpret as being the voters wishes. That's not democratic, it's just abdicating power to people who are barely qualified to exercise it.
There have been loads of examples and experiments in participatory, consensus based decision making and non-representative democratic structures throughout history, and there's loads of evidence that they work and provide better decisions. The people who hold power don't want our current system to work in the way most people understand it (as in politicians doing what the people tell them) because it would dilute their power. What's more instead of using the failings of this system as a reason to improve it, we're told it proves that we shouldn't have more democratic systems because the people can't be trusted. The people make stupid decisions because the system ensures it. If we changed that system to make it truly democratic, we'd get better decisions and better policy from government.
The big problem in the UK is ‘jobs for the boys’.
No, that's well down the list IMO. The biggest problem we have is anti-education anti-intellectualist populism, that means that no-one really wants to think about the issues, learn, and evolve. And that is due largely to the education system. If we could teach people how to spot media manipulation the tabloids would lose most of their influence.
I agree with both oldmanmtb2 and Kelvin.
The fact of the matter is, it's a really sad state of affiars for society. Maybe poor education can be blamed, or poor parents, but we are where we are.
We are all a product of circumstance on some level.
Thank you for your contributions, Oldmanmtb2. Your tales from work have made me smile whilst wincing at the level of understanding displayed by those around you.
I wish you well with your business and retirement when it comes. When you can afford it do it. I closed my business when my gouvernement voted laws to make my business insufficiently profitable to be worth pursuing. Hindsight tells me it was a good decision.
Don't kill youself fo a slightly bigger pension pot. Two of my ski racing contemporaries have died recently of heart attacks witin two years of retirement.
It is what it is. I am fortunate that i dont have to engage with it or support it.
Cheers Edukator..
Politically i am now slightly left of Stalin... rather than right of Mogg.
I am pleased to be closer to 60 than 30.
Its hard to explain how much i despise parts of our society which i would have defended to the hilt a few years back.
In the nicest way possible, I would maybe suggest that's where you've gone wrong. Not much has really changed between 2015 and now. The main thing that did is that people across a wide spectrum of society voted to change something they didn't understand beyond the view that it didn't work for them. For my part I don't despise them (racists aside of course), I despise the people and the system which led them to vote against their own interests. I said to many people after the 2010 election that the only thing that had changed was that I could feel good about hating the government instead of feeling deeply disappointed by it. Brexit is much the same.
Well dazh i admire your faith in these folks.
They are pretty much going to dictate our society for the foreseeable future.
Enjoy
They are pretty much going to dictate our society for the foreseeable future.
Don't be daft, they have almost no influence or say in anything so blaming them is pretty ridiculous. It's the easiest thing in the world to blame those below for whatever we think is wrong. Brexit is just the latest event in a long history of divide and rule politics, and we fall for it every single time.
they have almost no influence or say in anything
This is true. But who will their vote be enabling? A lot of damage can be done in their name, claiming it is their will, while people accept that a sizeable minority of the population is a mandate for whatever those in charge say must happen, come what may. Our leaders keep doing whatever they want, simply by saying, “it’s in the spirit of Brexit”, even if it is the exact opposite of what they themselves promised would be the result of a Leave vote, or was in their election manifesto. Just magic the words “not real Brexit” and anything can be written off. Utter “delivering on the will of the people” and you can justify doing anything, no matter what proportion of the public think it is pointless and self harming.
It’s the easiest thing in the world to blame those below for whatever we think is wrong.
Wait, what? Is that not what you've been championing all along?
You want power to the people, who are "those below"?
Don’t be daft, they have almost no influence or say in anything so blaming them is pretty ridiculous.
Utter bollocks.
Every time someone has rightly pointed out an issue with Brexit a smugly grinning Brexiteer is trotted out and says 'will of the people'.
Dodgy contract granted to mates for Brexit-driven issue? Will of the people.
Parliament bypassed or illegally prorogued? Will of the people.
The nasty, racist, xenophobic, short sighted, insular, entitled, stupid views of 'the people' have constantly been used as justification for driving this country over a self-created cliff edge. And all so a few well-placed cynical exploiters can profit. And kick back a tasty amount to the politicians who enabled it.
I am checking out (not literally) and plan to contribute as little as possible, i dont give a **** if the great unwashed have to sit in their own shit and beg for means tested benefits so be it.
My natural socialist tendencies have been shelved, i never thought this would happen.
On the Friday after the 2019 GE I turned to my wife and said:
"**** 'em",
"if the poor vote not only for themselves to be poorer, but us also, then **** 'em"
I also made the same decision.
On the Friday after the 2019 GE I turned to my wife and said:
“* ’em”,
“if the poor vote not only for themselves to be poorer, but us also, then * ’em”I also made the same decision.
Yep. I don't actively wish harm to come to people who voted Leave and then for Johnson, but at the same time I couldn't give a flying **** if it does. They voted for it. I didn't.
If I could arrange my tax affairs in such a way as to minimise my contribution to this ridiculous folly, I would.
We now fall foul of import - a fire in our kitchen needed replacements from Sweden for 4 cupboards, all ordered in December.
They are due for delivery on Thursday and we have £166.24 of odd import tax and duties to pay.
FFS.
Will of the people, innit.
They are due for delivery on Thursday and we have £166.24 of odd import tax and duties to pay.
At least you can console yourself that your £166.24 will be used effectively and directly for the common good of the population....
🤣😅🤣😅🤣
Don’t be daft, they have almost no influence or say in anything so blaming them is pretty ridiculous.
Although you are right in one, limited way. By accident.
They have no say now same as us grownups. The problem is that it was a one-shot deal. They had one chance. And they ****ed it up. If they suffer as a result, tough titty.
Good to see Liz Truss refusing to answer questions now... this should be much bigger news.
https://twitter.com/EmilyThornberry/status/1361340770033270785
Thornberry is wrong. The government have shown that they can indeed stick their heads in the sand... and more than that... claim that there is no issue to address... without outright lies... and they'll be given a free pass to do so...
"There is no border in the Irish sea"
"There are no non-tariff barriers"
No one wants to admit to the Big Lie.
Quelle surprise.
Truss is an utter cretin.