Still, even in the Torygraph...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/16/britain-going-rejoin-eu-farsooner-anyone-now-imagines/
I sympathise with what you are saying but to be devil’s advocate, Wales voted to leave the EU too.
That's a very broad brush. The reality was that the vote was moderately close everywhere, just closer in some places than others, with a few extreme pockets all over the country. If you want a geographical split the rural v urban is more distinct. You'll find a far more significant division if you look a votes by education or age.
The reality was that the vote was moderately close everywhere
Not in Scotland.
Although it depends on how you define moderately close, I guess.
Not in Scotland.
Although it depends on how you define moderately close, I guess.
Of course close is subjective. Although if you want to play that game, if the leave voters in Scotland had voted remain then remain would've won. Its more to highlight to pointlessness (and divisiveness) of trying to say "the English" did this, "the Welsh" did that, etc. There were divisions all across the country and the national borders were one of the least significant. As I said, age and education were far more significant
As I said, age and education were far more significant
That's true everywhere except Scotland and NI. I think saying that Scotland doesn't have significantly different attitudes towards Europe compared to rUK is simply not true. As usual NI has it's own political dynamics and can't easily be compared to rUK.
England and Wales have broadly similar attitudes and a broadly similar political make up. Lumping them together is perfectly legitimate, imo.
Brexit just keeps on giving. Get power of attorney before you need it. And keep your passport up to date
Brexit just keeps on giving. Get power of attorney before you need it. And keep your passport up to date
Of course, the root cause of this issue is Brexit. However, the aggravating factor is the Swedish authorities being complete and utter ****s.
Not really surprising though. They've got their own racists and bigots to appease.
England and Wales have broadly similar attitudes and a broadly similar political make up. Lumping them together is perfectly legitimate, imo.
That's not really true at all. What leads you to that conclusion?
Even lumping England as a single entity is daft from all sorts of angles.
EDIT probably Scotland as well, from what I understand although I'm no expert there. In fact treating countries as single entities is absurd in many ways.
That’s not really true at all. What leads you to that conclusion?
Every election in the last 15 to 20 years.
If you look at the political make up of NI and Scotland (which are completely distinct from each other) and then look at England and Wales then England and Wales can be seen as being so similar as makes little difference. Wales might be a bit more Labour inclined but Labour are far closer to the Tories than the SNP are to Labour.
Up until around 2005 you could probably lump Scotland in with England and Wales. Over the last 15 to 20 years the divergence has been rapid and severe.
In fact treating countries as single entities is absurd in many ways.
Yes, yes, we are all beautiful and unique snowflakes. However, you simply cannot discuss politics or pretty much anything without grouping people together somehow.
In some cases that can be done by education attainment or some other metric that is independent of geography.
However, when there is a clear and distinct geographic difference that is independent of education level or other metrics then pretending that the geographic difference doesn't exist or shouldn't be brought up because people might be offended (because they don't feel that way) then it makes discussion pointless.
Of course, the root cause of this issue is Brexit. However, the aggravating factor is the Swedish authorities being complete and utter ****.
Not really surprising though. They’ve got their own racists and bigots to appease.
Tes, Sverige Demokratarna have forced a move to the right in Riksdagen here in Sweden, but the problem here is one of paperwork and, arguably, impartiality. If there is no power of attorney, then no one else _can_ fill out your paperwork for you. Migrationsverket are likely trying to be as fair to everyone as possible, but if she has her residency permit, then it will have an expiry date and _she_, or her legal representative, will have to apply for either citizenship or permanent right of residency.
This feels like bureaucracy rather than cruelty.
I should add (sneaky edit) that Brexit made the UK a third nation. There is _no_ legal difference between the UK and anywhere else in the world that Sweden accepts residents and migrants from. Up until 2019, that was not the case and is the direct result of Brexit.
However, you simply cannot discuss politics or pretty much anything without grouping people together somehow.
Indeed, but in the case of Brexit you've got fairly small variations in the remain/leave split across the UK, so saying 'Wales is X' or 'England is Y' based on that small variation is pretty terrible.
then look at England and Wales then England and Wales can be seen as being so similar as makes little difference
In 2019, Labour got 28 seats in Wales versus 8 seats for the Tories. In England it was 296 vs 227. I don't see that as being similar?
Also, comparing the electoral landscape in Scotland to that in England and Wales is pretty foolish, because the SNP aren't fielding candidates in England and Wales. The reason the SNP get so many votes in Scotland is related to more things than the political compass of the electorate, I feel.
I think you are using the electoral results to justify your nationalistic feelings, which is.. fairly weak, intellectually, if I'm honest.
But back to Brexit - again, the results may not be as simple as you imagine. Wales is somewhat stratified. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research
If you want a geographical split the rural v urban is more distinct. You’ll find a far more significant division if you look a votes by education or age.
And this. Other factors were much more significant than which UK nation voters were in. The nationalistic argument regarding Brexit is not doing anyone any favours. The whole UK has this issue. 38% of Scots voted to leave, despite being almost entirely represented at Westminster by a remainer party. Why did so many Scots vote to leave?
Indeed, but in the case of Brexit you’ve got fairly small variations in the remain/leave split across the UK,
Not so. Scotland 2 to 1 remain. Enland 55+% leave. Thats sugnificant
Indeed, but in the case of Brexit you’ve got fairly small variations in the remain/leave split across the UK, so saying ‘Wales is X’ or ‘England is Y’ based on that small variation is pretty terrible.
Saying that Scotland has a different attitude to Europe compared to England and Wales is not 'terrible'. You do love your hyperbole when it comes to this subject.
I don't think it would be particularly 'terrible' to say that NI has a different attitude towards Europe compared to both Scotland as well and England and Wales. NI politics is different to rUK for obvious reasons. Scotland also has different politics to rUK. It's not a controversial statement.
In 2019, Labour got 28 seats in Wales versus 8 seats for the Tories. In England it was 296 vs 227. I don’t see that as being similar?
That's because you are in Wales. The difference between Labour and the Conservatives is that Labour are less evil. Otherwise the political narrative is quite similar. Maybe when Plaid Cymru (or another non-UK party) vote starts getting above the 40% mark we can start talking about Wales being significantly different from England.
Also, comparing the electoral landscape in Scotland to that in England and Wales is pretty foolish, because the SNP aren’t fielding candidates in England and Wales. The reason the SNP get so many votes in Scotland is related to more things than the political compass of the electorate, I feel.
I feel like you can see the issue but just can't seem to understand anything beyond your England/Wales mindset. NI doesn't have any parties that sit anywhere else in the UK. If the Unionist parties in Scotland had any sense they would divorce themselves from the rUK parties and focus on representing Scotland's interests within the Union without simply being a branch office of the UK party.
And this. Other factors were much more significant than which UK nation voters were in.
You keep saying that and yet the vote percentage wasn't significantly higher for any non-geographic differentiator compared to Scotland vs Not-Scotland.
You have all the non-geographic differentiators and then you have the geographic differentiator (ie, Scotland). Both are equally significant (although obviously not if you live in England or Wales).
mrmonkfinger
Free Member
Still, even in the Torygraph…
> https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/16/britain-going-rejoin-eu-farsooner-anyone-now-imagines/
Same old, same old isn't it? Basically saying that Brexit and those that voted for it were "betrayed" by the political elite.
Nothing about Brexit itself being a malignancy that could never be one of the many things the Leave voters thought it could be.
Not so. Scotland 2 to 1 remain. Enland 55+% leave. Thats sugnificant
England was 53.4% leave, Scotland was 38% leave. So yeah, there's a significant swing but I don't think it's as emphatic as you seem to think. You seem happy to ignore 38% of your compatriots who wanted to leave.
As I said before, the vote was split across the UK on all sorts of lines that were never seen before. There are loads of aspects to it. You're just picking the one that backs up your nationalist feelings.
But let's not go there again - there's a thread for it. I just wanted to call out the idea that England and Wales are politically similar as bobbins.
nickjb
Free Member
""I sympathise with what you are saying but to be devil’s advocate, Wales voted to leave the EU too.""That’s a very broad brush.
Yeah, I agree mate but what I said was factually correct.
However, I live in a staunch Tory/ leave voting area even though I and many others voted for neither. Hence my sympathies for those that live in an area/ UK country that voted Leave even though they didn't.
No i am.not just backing my nationalistic feeling because i am no ideological nationalist
You keep on making false statements about Scotland based on a lack of understanding
Scotland is very different politically. You just dont understand this
You’re just picking the one that backs up your nationalist feelings.
While you pick the ones that back up your nationalist feelings.
Then you say, 'But I'm not a Nationalist!'
To which I say, 'Yes you are. You're a British Nationalist!'
To which you say, 'No I'm not. I don't believe in borders!'
To which I say, 'But you want to keep Scotland within the borders of the UK.'
To which you say, 'Borders are just a construct that have no basis in reality.'
To which I say, 'Then what does it matter if we're within your borders or not.'
To which you say, 'But that's different...'
We've had this same discussion far too many times. I and others have tried to point out that you are just as much of a nationalist as any woaded up, kilted, saltire waving Scottish Nationalist.
You believe in the superiority of the UK over an independent Scotland. That makes you a UK nationalist. Stop trying to pretend you're not and put others down because they don't want anything to do with the UK anymore.
You believe in the superiority of the UK over an independent Scotland.
Nope.
Nope.
Yep.
Now come on ya' bloody devil's, let's not get into one word replies!😁
If you want a geographical split the rural v urban is more distinct. You’ll find a far more significant division if you look a votes by education or age.
The most accurate split I believe.... isn't so much 'eduction', as in how clever someone is, but more people who undertook 'residential eduction'. Its not the case that 'educated' people are cleverer as lots people got to college and get pretty rubbish results - just as plenty of smart people pursue careers that dont require a college education as a launch pad. The most accurate Brexit divide is between people who left home to go to college and people who didnt leave home.
That tracks with the age divide because the quantity of residential education available in the 50s/60s/70/s was much lower than in recent decades and the access to careers was often through apprentiship rather than academia. It also holds to the city / rural split. The Brexit heartlands tend to be the places that people who want to pursue academic study leave From, and often don't come back. Cities tend to be where they go to receive that residential eduction and also where the careers that attract people with those educations are focused.
Its not at its heart more than a divide in how people feel about incomers. When we refer to 'educated' and refer to rural and urban it largely just people who themselves have spent a lot of their life feeling like an incomer and don't feel suspicious or other incomers.
People will give much more 'reasoned' arguments for whichever side of the Brexit fence they sit on but for the most part they're just rationalising what is basically a gut feeling.
The most accurate Brexit divide is between people who left home
to go to collegeand people who didnt leave home.
Just a guess. I don't have the data.
it largely just people who themselves have spent a lot of their life feeling like an incomer and don’t feel suspicious or other incomers
I suspect you are right. And people settle on these feelings/views quite young... so people moving when they are young tend to be more welcome of other people moving... where as those moving later in life are less open to them. And those that never move... they gain so much from staying put (long standing local networking and traditions etc) that they fear they will lose when there are (obvious) incomers.
Yeah there's a thread for this. I'm considering going over there and explaining my position yet again but BruceWee didn't listen the last 5 times so I'm not sure it's worth it.
If however he wants to have a proper non confrontational discussion of nationalism and the Scottish version of it, that won't end up in a row (e.g. claiming you know more about what people think than the people themselves) then that could be quite engaging and rewarding.
Suffice to say, Brexit has happened to all of us, we are literally all in this together wether or not we voted for it, so let's bear than in mind.
Suffice to say, Brexit has happened to all of us, we are literally all in this together wether or not we voted for it, so let’s bear than in mind.
Yep, couldnt agree more.
Good point maccruisekeen. I do wonder if the migration of university students from Scotland is different to other parts of the UK.
Molgrips
The problem with discussing Scotland with you is you don't understand the basics and will not accept that or listen leading to you being offensive
As in the above post where you accused me of cherry picking to suit my nationistic sentiment.
If you understand you wouldn't make the basic errors you do
Also you constantly tell folk what they are thinking and get this wrong in my case
Watching you accusing people of not listening and claiming to know what others are thinking is hilarious, molgrips.
Over the years many different people have tried to point out your ignorance and your complete lack of understanding of the parts of the UK that aren't England or Wales and you keep coming back, making the same insulting claims and refusing to listen.
You do not know what you are talking about.
I wouldn't try to lecture anyone from Northern Ireland because it's incredibly complicated and it's very far from my own frames of reference when it comes to politics. I would hope you would have the sense not to either.
However, you feel entirely comfortable lecturing Scots about our politics despite it being completely alien to you.
Now, I could be completely wrong about Wales being pretty much the same as England, just a bit more Labour-y. However, you haven't even bothered trying to explain how it is different. All you've said is it's more Labour-y which, when compared to Scotland, is not all that different at all really.
Instead of trying to explain how Wales is so different from England you've gone to your default with is to lecture the Scots.
Suffice to say, Brexit has happened to all of us, we are literally all in this together wether or not we voted for it, so let’s bear than in mind.
Yep, couldnt agree more.
TBH I think the worst part is that it’s affected people who aren’t in the U.K. anymore and that for all the withdrawal agreement B.S. they lost a lot of rights to work in other countries overnight.
We’ve just got rights in our host country when I think that we should have been granted an eu based citizenship but it’s not like the U.K. gov were actually going put any work in any part of Brexit.
@maccruiskeen there's a book about that - The Road to Somewhere by David Goodhart. The main point is that there are people who are not defined by place, but by experience (the Anywheres) and people who feel defined by place (the Somewheres). On the whole, Anywheres are better educated and wealthier, Somewheres are poorer, and more likely to hold bigoted views. Probably maps pretty well onto Remain/Leave.
I've always maintained that instead of campaigning, the leave side should have just signed everyone up to an Erasmus+ visit to another European family for a few days.
Leaving home and family, even temporarily, gives wider experiences, a life that doesn't centre around you, and a perspective on what we all have in common.
Now, I could be completely wrong about Wales being pretty much the same as England, just a bit more Labour-y. However, you haven’t even bothered trying to explain how it is different. All you’ve said is it’s more Labour-y which, when compared to Scotland, is not all that different at all really.
I get the impression that the reasons Welsh folk voted Brexit are/were similar to those for English folk in similar situations (agricultural areas, post-industrial places, cities and so on) - leaving aside perhaps areas with specific local issues. In other respects though, Welsh politics is more different.
I've lived in England, West Wales, SW France, Cataluna and Germany for long enough to have got a feeling for the collective think. People are individuals but groups of them have collective educational and cultural experiences which model their thinking an behaviour. Including their political beliefs and allegencies.
I'm inclined to agree with TJ and Bruce Wee. Attitudes in Scotland are different to England and that is reflected in the legal differences made possible by devolution. When friends used to ask where would be a place to do Erasmus en Angleterre I used to reply "en Ecosse".
Edukator - you need to include " on average across the population" in that with regard to attitudes really for clarity
Yes we have numpties here as well and bams - but the right wing gets half the votes, anti immigrant sentiment does not gain any traction in political discourse and the racists are marginalised not a significant part of the political life
The most accurate Brexit divide is between people who left home to go to college and people who didnt leave home.
I think the key here is "left and didn't go back".
I come from what was, in the 80's, a grim Northern town - with boundary changes in the 90's it became Tory and then voted heavily for Brexit. The folk I know that left are on the whole 'educated' and Remainers, the folk that stayed seem to blame everyone but themselves for their not so ideal lives. My in-laws came from South Wales, just that didn't leave seem to be just like folk from my home town.
I now live in Scotland, after a long stint in the Home Counties plus time abroad. Scotland really is different to England & Wales, IME.
It seems the arch opportunist has seen Brexit, once again, as his golden ticket
It looks like he’s going to publicly denounce any compromise Sunak has made with the EU as surrender and treachery then lead the bowler-hatred DUP useful idiots (do they never tire of being played by him?) and the ERG headbangers into an uprising, no doubt with the aim of restoring himself to number 10
It’ll cause more economic chaos, poison EU relations even further and threaten the GF agreement but then when did he ever care about that?
FFS!!
It makes me sad, Labour voters will vote labour instead of tories because they are not tory, and tory voters will vote tory because they are not labour.
The brexiteer swing voters will vote for what ever party is the most racist and anti-immigration, whilst hating the lib dems as insignificant and propping up the status quo.
And so the predictable binary party swing between useless and tired old ideologies will continue, like a particularly kind of stupid yin-yang doomed to failure.
She really is a turgid fat blimp,
> delete's rude comment aimed at Binners... in case it's not taken in the jokey spirit it was intended <
> delete’s rude comment aimed at Binners… in case it’s not taken in the jokey spirit it was intended <
Yes, best be on the safe side. binners has always struck me as a quiet sensitive delicate soul.
TBH I just don’t get the having Farage picture on the wall, I like a lot of people but don’t tend to have their picture on my wall.
TBH are Athena missing out on a new market.
In that picture, I reckon the bloke on the right is thinking that he needs to find somewhere else to have a drink...
Seems like the ERG is just mad dog Baker these days...
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1629618090148257793?t=E8JLeDUKSjyo7wsqfYbaxw&s=19
Absolutely no shortages here in southern Spain.
Are Brexiters twigging on yet?
I think this is just a taste of what's to come, tbh. Just come visit Norway if you want to get an idea of what food costs if you're operating outside the Common Agricultural and Fisheries policy.
It's good from the point of view that your country is more self-reliant (assuming you're set up to mostly produce food at home, which the UK isn't).
It's bad from the point of view that food costs 3 to 4 times as much and there is nothing like the variety available that you are used to.
It also helps if your country is the richest in the world, and has a heavily unionised workforce and strong social security safety net.
Neither of which applies to the UK, I believe?
Seems like the ERG is just mad dog Baker these days
if only…
It looks like the country is once again about to be held to ransom by Mark Francious and his motley collection of hardcore Brexiteer loons, propped up by the ‘no surrender’ bowler-hatted headbangers of the DUP
The lunatics are once again calling the shots 🙄
Sunak warned of Tory chaos over Northern Ireland protocol deal
Some wishful thinking from Andrew Rawnsley
https://twitter.com/andrewrawnsley/status/1629787142393065472?s=46&t=LJfq8dkl5eTAqUHBSZgbLA
And let's not forget the beloved DUP who are doing most of the heavy lifting towards a united Ireland. The Wolfe Tones would be proud of them.
@Caher the brothers still in NI have commented that the moderates in the Unionist population can see that they are going to re-unification. They both have purple passports from "The Free State" as my late FIL used to refer to the Irish State.I'm trying to persuade herself to get an Irish passport to facilitate our retirement.
How many times have we got Brexit done now?
Its deja vu all over again
Its a good job theres nothing else important going on so that once again the various deranged factions of the Tory party can indulge in another civil war over how pure their personal visions of the cult of Brexit are
Absolutely no shortages here in southern Spain.
Are Brexiters twigging on yet?
Or Ukraine apparently, which might be even more of a clue to the hard of thinking.
TBH I just don’t get the having Farage picture on the wall
I guess you're joking, but that's clearly a photoshop
Apparently the Minister for Food* is hauling the supermarket bosses in to tell him why there is no fresh veg in the shops.
Hope they offer him some possible explanations.
*Who was surely only given the job because of his name.
In my naivety I always have trusted the BBC news but their coverage of the fallout of brexit is woeful. Not once have they mentioned that low stocks of tomatoes is unique to the UK. Think I'll stick to the Daily Mash.
How many times have we got Brexit done now?
As many times as I have had a BrexShit.
To just blame Brexit for the "foot shortages" is hilarious.
This is the thread that just keeps giving.
To just blame Brexit for the “foot shortages” is hilarious.
Brexiter in 'can't read' shocker.
No one is saying that the shortages are due to Brexit alone. But Brexit has made our supply chains more brittle, so when under pressure due to, for instance, weather conditions, they break. The UK is at the back of the queue for the currently scarce products, and that is 100% down to Brexit.
Is everyone ready for the usual unhinged Brexiteer suspects to soil their collective petticoats in hysterical horror this afternoon then?
I do find it amusing that the press are speculating about how the ERG/DUP axis of stupid will respond.
Why speculate? We already know exactly how they'll respond...
To just blame Brexit for the “foot shortages” is hilarious.
This is the thread that just keeps giving.
The weather is the reason there are fewer tomatoes.
Brexit is the reason everywhere else in Europe has them and we don't.
And energy prices. Homegrown salad is very energy intensive. Geography matters. One of the reasons that "sod Europe, we'll do it ourselves" isn't always a better way forward than "all of Europe is one big market, let's specialise in what we can do best".
Brexiter in ‘can’t read’ shocker
Oh the level of discourse. Good old circle jerk.
Fruit and Veg wholesalers in Ireland are facing similar issues.
https://businessplus.ie/news/fruit-and-veg-bad-weather/
Even that Ireland based reporter mentions the problems in UK supermarkets (which are worse than in Ireland, for whatever reasons).
"let’s specialise in what we can do best”.
Leave us to our the turnips. In my experience, I've never seen a turnip or parsnip on sale in a French, Spanish, Italian, German or Austrian supermarket
Yeah, the parsnip is not appreciated much outside the UK.
BTW, of the many big chain and independent shops selling greengrocery near greyspoke towers (North Cardiff), the only lack of tomatoes and salad veg I have noticed is at a pavement greengrocery stall. No doubt there are empty shelves in places, but I haven't seen any.
I do find it amusing that the press are speculating about how the ERG/DUP axis of stupid will respond.
Or is this the time someone has the balls to call the ERG and DUPs' bluff?
I'm going to have to try a bacon, lettuce and parsnip sandwich now.
DUP still won't return to Stormont due to the outstanding issue of grass being green.
Yeah, the parsnip is not appreciated much outside the UK.
Possibly quite true, but we get through a bunch (no pun intended) of them when they are in season here in Sweden and the local supermarket is good at having stocks of them.
The DUP only have two words in their vocabulary:
NO! and NEVER!
To just blame Brexit for the “foot shortages” is hilarious.
I thought we left the EU so we could use imperial measurements? This isn't the Brexit I voted for etc...
NO! and NEVER!
Thats unfair and inaccurate.
They can occasionally find YES and MORE for example when it comes to dodgy subsidies such as the cash for ash.
This is the actual announcement from number 10 😳
https://twitter.com/RishiSunak/status/1630229952405594112?s=20
In other news, this morning I tied my shoelaces #achievements
The crux of it seems to be that anything intended for NI doesn't get scrutinised, anything intended for ROI does.
Can someone explain how that works in practice? Is someone going to be labelling every box of sausages in the lorry and then checking where they end up? Are we going to have different labelling on the packets, so they will have to say 'NOT FOR SALE IN NI' on them or something?
Food available on supermarket shelves in Great Britain, will be available in Northern Ireland – including sausages.
