Don't even try and look for anything positive on this thread. You'll only get shot down.
There's rules about "selling data" I think....
Yes, businesses are going to have to think of new ways of working or new directions.
Which will take time, and money, and cost jobs and reduce GDP and tax income in the short to medium term, especially having lost frictionless trade and easy access to talent and markets.
None of which was ****ing necessary.
Don’t be doing the same things as everyone else
Yes exactly
It takes quite a while to create successful businesses out of ideas and new startups. It requires large amounts of capital, much of which gets wasted. The reason the US does well at it is that there is enough money swilling around to chuck it all over the place and some of it sticks - plus they have a huge home market. We don't have the investor set up to throw the money around and we don't have a huge home market. Well, we did have a huge home market until we walked away. Imagine California leaving the US, and introducing barriers between Facebook, Netflix etc and the rest of the USA.
We were also depending on EU immigration for skills in high tech areas. That's going to take a fair while to turn around, IF we have the political will and capability to do so. I mean, we need to go from a laissez-faire economy to one that's managed and planned - that's something we just don't have skill or experience in at govt level. How well do you think it's gonna go at first? How long before we get good at it? Do you think there's even the appetite for sustained government investment in the UK? It's not really a Tory strong suit is it?
Don’t even try and look for anything positive on this thread. You’ll only get shot down.
Then why not shoot us down first? If you make a good argument we'll have no choice but to concede.
There’s rules about “selling data” I think….
I see that there's rules on personal data (GDPR), but research data generated in the UK would be a "homegrown" export?
How well do you think it’s gonna go at first? How long before we get good at it? Do you think there’s even the appetite for sustained government investment in the UK? It’s not really a Tory strong suit is it?
1. Probably very slowly
2. Reasonably quickly, we have a good history of entrepreneurship
3. For me yes, can only speak for myself on this one
4. No
For me yes, can only speak for myself on this one
You're not the one with the money though, or the one doing it - that's the issue. I'd love us to have a decent industrial strategy but that needs talent, money, and political will. Not sure we have enough of all three.
we have a good history of entrepreneurship
In what areas? In the last 20 years? We need training and skills to make this work, we have a major skills deficit. That can't be rectified quickly. And if it takes a decade to turn around, we're going to lose so much money in the meantime it'll be difficult to get back.
Just tell me something that's being done or planned that can give me hope.
Just tell me something that’s being done or planned that can give me hope.
And remember to tell us how this is enabled (rather than hindered) by no longer being in, or having a close relationship with, Europe's Single Market and Customs Union.
3. For me yes, can only speak for myself on this one
Erm.
Sort of not really an option though, when it is government investment we're talking about?
"#4 No" doesn't bode very well for #3.
There’s rules about “selling data” I think….
Data can be very profitable. Selling patient data to US drug companies (for instance) could net billions for...someone. The NHS? Someone’s mate who is contracted by Bozzer’s mate’s mate? Maybe a combo?
Now we’re free from Big BrothEUr then assumedly the EU Patient Protection rules have had some Tippexing? Less friction = more dollar?
But if the EU are still keen to protect patient data then it could be that sharing/flow of data between the UK and the EU will be problematic if we don’t satisfy their lust for needless bEUreaucracy? After a week of the UK being now third country (and needing a resolution on EU-UK data flow) I’ve not read anything on the status - but then again haven’t been looking. Too busy watching the Trumpshow and burying my head in the shandy re Rules Britannia. To my own eternal shame. Maybe Dougie you have some knowledge on the new rules?
Missed this:
You forgot one: Don’t be doing the same things as everyone else.
So, for the hard of understanding, why could someone not do those different things cheaper by being based in the EU?
Maybe Dougie you have some knowledge on the new rules?
No. I was just thinking of things we can do differently outside of the EU and put this idea out as an idea/suggestion. I wont profess to have answers, even at peoples insistance that I should.
I'm sure we will still be bound on GDPR, I'm not sure though if healthcare data (eg. treatments/response to treatments/response to drug trials by patient X/Y) recovered by the NHS is personal information?
What I'm saying is, can the UK stand to benefit from the ongoing drug/treatment trial that is the NHS, in the post brexit world?
So, for the hard of understanding, why could someone not do those different things cheaper by being based in the EU?
(devil’s advocate) unless you’re thinking of rejoining the EU, then is there any point to such questions in 2021?
Breakin' it down no more wasting time
Ease your mind, your heart you'll find
No more confusion
Find whats real
Love is all you have to feel
Here and now
Here and now yeah
Here and now is all we've got
why could someone not do those different things cheaper by being based in the EU?
is there any point to such questions in 2021?
There is if you can either move to, or duplicate some of your operations in, the EU.
And, if you are an international business looking to set up a manufacturing or distribution or support hub in Europe… these questions are very valid. Face additional cost and hassle UK>EEA or EEA>UK… in many product and service areas, it’ll be a no brainer.
No. I was just thinking of things we can do differently outside of the EU
And did you come up with anything we can do differently outside of the EU ?
In what areas? In the last 20 years? We need training and skills to make this work, we have a major skills deficit. That can’t be rectified quickly. And if it takes a decade to turn around, we’re going to lose so much money in the meantime it’ll be difficult to get back.
As something I've said before on this thread, based on my previous experience of working with Government we have a chronic skills issue in the UK, particularly across many technical areas. Many UK businesses are significantly dependent on specialists who are going to retire in the next 10 years - the structural deficit is in excess of 50,000 people a year and there isn't the capacity in higher education to address it. A large number are in small, family owned businesses who will simply shut-up shop. The Government tried to address it by effectively taxing businesses through the Apprenticeship Levy to fund it - the result? Apprenticeship numbers declined. Without immigration we're stuffed.
On the other side of the coin, if you are an investor, you're going to be looking at markets with growth and prospects. The UK is predominantly a mature/static/declining market that has deliberated constructed barriers to trade with its most accessible - you don't need an MBA to know you'd probably get a better return elsewhere. The one thing many savvy investors aren't is sentimental.
And did you come up with anything we can do differently outside of the EU ?
Did you read my question, previous posts? or just that line?
Without immigration we’re stuffed.
We do still offer the oppertunity of immigration though? Don't we? I'm not saying its as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to. I'm not rying to refute the bulk of waht you say BTW.
I’m sure we will still be bound on GDPR, I’m not sure though if healthcare data (eg. treatments/response to treatments/response to drug trials by patient X/Y) recovered by the NHS is personal information?
FFS proper Brexiter stuff this, propose something while not having the foggiest idea about it.
Data is only valuable if it is 'deep-data'. Without details it's worth nothing, and personal data is more than someone's name...
And this is already a fully developed industry - I was involved in it in the early 2000's.
Selling patient data to
US drug companiesUS private health insurers (for instance) could net billions for…someone
FTFM
The NHS response back in 2014 was hardly reassuring:
https://www.england.nhs.uk/2014/01/guardian-story/
That was before the new EU rules though. And before Brexit.
So maybe British citizens should be more concerned if they couldn’t have their patient data sold? To assist the economy/someone?
Dougiedogg
"In the form of data, the NHS is unique in that it is a single entity (as far as I know) "
shows how little you know. The NHS is split between the 4 countries. split in england into fake market units that compete not co operate. split between primary and secondary care and in Scotland at least the data is not for sale. so no one monolithic slab of data to sell and no right to sell it.
Data is only valuable if it is ‘deep-data’. Without details it’s worth nothing, and personal data is more than someone’s name…
And this is already a fully developed industry – I was involved in it in the early 2000’s.
Thanks for explaining, no need for the emotive part.
shows how little you know. The NHS is split between the 4 countries. split in england into fake market units that compete not co operate. split between primary and secondary care and in Scotland at least the data is not for sale. so no one monolithic slab of data to sell and no right to sell it.
Now I know more ,thanks.
Did you read my question, previous posts? or just that line?
Yes I have read your previous post or most of them and have seen zilch from you that has any foundation in reality about new opportunities
What I’m saying is, can the UK stand to benefit from the ongoing drug/treatment trial that is the NHS, in the post brexit world?
We can - this has been discussed a lot already - and I think arguably we could still have done within the EU. GDPR covers data that could be used to personally identify someone e.g. name, address, phone number etc. If you use the NHS data to say something like '80% of people with blond hair were COVID-free after a year, whereas only 60% of people with brown hair were' then that's always been fine, in our out of the EU I think. I don't think data needs to include personally identifiable data in order to be clinically useful, does it?
shows how little you know
Can we please discuss this nicely? Just because we are remainers doesn't mean we have to berate brexiters or even middle-grounders. I don't want to live in an echo chamber, and being shitty to those brave enough to discuss the issues until they leave helps no-one.
I don’t think data needs to include personally identifiable data in order to be clinically useful, does it?
This is what set me on my line of thinking but I was told deep data was the only useful form. I know this has been discussed but it always came across with very negative connotations on here, that we were in effect selling off the NHS.
What if we were to use NHS data only in the UK for UK pharma companies?
I wonder how people would feel then?
What if we were to use NHS data only in the UK for UK pharma companies?
I wonder how people would feel then?
I assume this falls into state aid/anti-competion regs then.
Thanks for explaining, no need for the emotive part.
I'm "emotive" because for +4 years I've had to listen to folk spouting stuff, sh*t and/or lies about stuff they haven't a clue about and/or don't fully understand - and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like.
What if we were to use NHS data only in the UK for UK pharma companies?
Define "UK pharma companies", 100% ownership by UK tax paying individuals or just with a nameplate here (and a mass of variations in-between)?
I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.
Like who?
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/who-migrates-to-the-uk-and-why/
Another foreseeable brexit bonus. Scottish seafood industry is collapsing due to brexit delays. what a win for the langustines and scallops that are now free to run around on the seabed.
A billion pound a year industry is going to be wiped out. thanks. 80+ % of the seafood used to go to the EU as fresh not frozen produce. Very high quality stuff it was too and highly prized. Now its more expensive and delayed so the EU consumers would have to pay more for a poorer quality product. Obviously they are not doing so
Thanks a bunch brexiteers
I don’t think data needs to include personally identifiable data in order to be clinically useful, does it?
Unfortunatly it does. It needs to be very finely detailed ( granular in modern speak) that granular data means that in some areas / categoies there are so few people in one data set that they are identifiable.
Right handed dark haired men with viking genes of english origin in leith soon identifies me
and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like
I don't have an equal platform to experts and have not tried to state any facts. I'm asking questions on a forum, this place isn't the news or a widespread platform, its to ask questions, rightly or wrongly.
I wouldn't consider anyone on this thread an expert on Brexit either, no-one is. We have experts on other threads, the coronavirus one for example, nobody on this thread has exhibited as much expertise as individuals on that one.
Dougiedogg - massive investment from government - apart from the tories will not do this it falls foul of not only the EU deal but also the japanese and chinese ones IIRC.
Maybe they can catch the langoustines using drones and then put them on the Blockchain. You know, do things differently.
Glib comments aside it is again so disappointing to see how this is playing out. Played for politics with the unfortunate feature that unlike other failed or delayed projects the failure doesn't mean life goes on, but that these barriers to trade are now baked in by the "total victory" approach. And we watch businesses die a slow death while ****ers like Hannan say we should scrap regulations. Not as a fix, but just because.
Christ alive these people.
I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.
Like who?
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/who-migrates-to-the-uk-and-why/
/blockquote>Non-EU migrants, the 62%, key point 1 and EU migrants of course who fit visa requirements. My point is that migration will continue it has not been stopped as a previous poster stated.
Don't tell the brexit voters that or we'll have to leave the rest of the world as well.
I’m “emotive” because for +4 years I’ve had to listen to folk spouting stuff, sh*t and/or lies about stuff they haven’t a clue about and/or don’t fully understand – and them getting an equal platform to experts and the like.
I'm just as angry as you but there's a time and a place - this isn't it.
I’m not saying its (immigration) as easy as before but it is still possible, we have just changed the market we appeal to.
It's also less attractive. You could previously decide to move here from the EU, and you were on the same terms as everyone else. You also had security, because you had the right to be here, which. meant you had confidence to move your family and settle down. If you lost your job, or didn't like it, you could find another.
However, if you were here on a visa, that's tied to a job so that meant if you lose your job you have to go home - or if you really don't like it you also have to go home. This is ok for young people who are mobile but not great if you have to uproot your children from their schools and the environment they've been born into and know. In practice, the people who can move and have confidence of support from their employers are the middle class high earners. That means that the opportunities to move abroad, experience cultures and even earn better money are much more limited if you aren't well off, which is a terrible shame.
The less attractive nature of migration under the new visa scheme means that employers will have to pay more for those roles so that people accept the downsides. That'll cost our businesses more, and companies that can't afford it won't be able to take advantage of skills. This will disadvantage small businesses, particularly specialist ones. And these are the kind of businesses we want to encourage. Something will need to be done to address this.
The sh*t hit the fan now.
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/08/percy-pigs-in-ireland-hit-by-brexit-red-tape-as-m-and-s-warns-of-tariffs
The less attractive nature of migration under the new visa scheme means that employers will have to pay more for those roles so that people accept the downsides.
They don’t need to accept the downsides.
I know a few bonafide geniuses in the IT world, from nonEU countries… they were working here, but have since moved to Germany, Netherlands and Sweden. If you’re in demand, you want to bring your kids up somewhere their lives are secure. We are less inviting than elsewhere. The RoW can see what is happening here. Messaging and new laws aimed at the anti-immigrant domestic sentiment that delivered Brexit and this Vote Leave government is heard worldwide.
My point is that migration will continue it has not been stopped as a previous poster stated.
Lets take nurses as an example. the NHS used to recruit a lot of nurses from the EU mainly from spain where due to their internal politics they train far more than they need. Now we no longer can. Nurses do not meet the visa requirements for coming to the UK IIRC. EU nurses no longer want to work in the UK. We still do not train enough nurses and there are massive shortages. No one is going to come from the antipodes or the US to nurse in the UK so its indian sub continent, philipines etc where us taking their nurses damages their healthcare.
Of course this is also expensive and bureaucratic instead of just jumping on a plane. so immigration in nurses has not been stopped but by heck its reduced dramatically with a lot of barriers that never used to be there. Who suffers from this? the spanish nurses who can no longer get jobs and the UK patients who do not have nurses and the fqr away countries that get their staff stripped.
A few years ago one NHS trust ran a recruitment campaign for ITU nurses from the carribean. So many nurses from one island moved that the islands only ITU had to be closed
akira
Full Member
Don’t tell the brexit voters that or we’ll have to leave the rest of the world as well.Posted 13 minutes ago
Ah, this is why Johnson was talking about more investment into space then. The U.K. is leaving the world and heading into the Solar System, free to deal with all the other open markets outside Earth. Britannia will soon rule the [gravity] waves, unchained from the gravity well.
Nurses do not meet the visa requirements for coming to the UK IIRC
But in theory that could be changed - the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand. I'm not supporting the government on this by the way just to be clear - just pointing out the intended operating model.
We are less inviting than elsewhere.
Yes, and this will lead to a long term slide, IMO. I mean yeah, we could start investing in education, training and industrial expertise but we won't, will we? Britain never has done anything like this in the past, so why would we start now? We'll just adjust the immigration requirements and attempt to keep bringing people in, cos it's the easiest way. Sod the long term consequences. Each government will just change the numbers a bit.
the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand
No, the point is that it doesn’t respond to demand. I think what you mean is that it can be changed when/if there is the political will… which may be influenced by changes in demand.
^^ Changes in demand or simply to appease a percentage of the populous unfortunately.😕
But in theory that could be changed – the point about the new immigration system is that it can respond to demand.
... And changed back again. And made different in the devolved countries. And changed again.
So last week you are A-OK but then take a new job and move hospital; but wait! You cant! 'Cos the point system you entered with is not the same as it is now so it's 'sling yer bloody hook' time.
"We're moving to the UK as daddy's got a new job!"
"Hurrah! How long for?"
"**** knows."
In true Brexiteer fashion, the line that frictionless trade would be maintained has now become 'we always said there would increased paperwork and checks at the ports'
No, you didn't. You said the polar opposite of that, you lying ****s