Having power closer to home is not a bad thing (even in the hands of the tories).
But then you went on to say this:
The EU is another high level abstraction of power which forces compromises and restraints on its member states
This for me was one of the benefits. It put the brakes on what Tories could do to **** us over.
But also, some things NEED to be supra national, such as the environment. Environmental protection increases costs, so countries could always increase competitiveness by having low protections. By cementing trade between EU countries and then making everyone follow the same protwction standards, this keeps the protections whilst negating the possibility of competitive advantage through that route. The level playing field. It ends the compromise between standards and competition.
Tories are saying now that they'll keep.protections, because it's politically convenient to do so. But they'll drop them.in an instant when we start to slide. Because they are Tories and the definition of Tory is believing in small govt and therefore low regulation. This whole thing was sold.on reducing red tape after all. It'll come.
Name one
Having power closer to home is not a bad thing (even in the hands of the tories). I’d prefer it to much more devolved than it is now after brexit, but it’s plainly to the UK’s advantage for its government to be able to make policy without having some of it restrained by treaties with other supra-national organisations. The EU is another high level abstraction of power which forces compromises and restraints on its member states despite what might be in their own best interests (Greece being an extreme but very relevant example). What is in the interests of Hungary might not be in the interests of the UK or any other country.
From a purely selfish view I’d prefer to give up a bit of power in exchange for the benefits I posessed as a citizen of the EU, and I’d vote to go back in if there was another referendum tomorrow, but that’s not going to happen. The job of our political leaders now that we are out is to find ways to make it work and to figure out how we can take advantage of our new situation. For the labour party and wider liberal left that’s a huge opportunity. Or you know, we can just carry on whining and let the tories turn us into neo-liberal fantasy island.
???
I guess you couldn't, then. That's one heck of a lot of typing when "shit, you know what, I can't actually come up with one" would have done.
100%
It’s a new rulebook for the same game,learn the rules and make them work for you. Move on, the world keeps on spinning.
More trite, substance-less bollocks from another Brexie who hasn't got the first clue about what they voted for. Or does know, but doesn't really want to say.
Tedious, tedious, tedious.
Four and a half ****ing years and what?
Blue passports?
Why don't you just come out and admit it. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT ANY POSITIVES ARE OR EVEN MIGHT BE.
Save everyone the time and bother of having to read through a word salad to be left with the inevitable conclusion - "well, that didn't actually say anything, really".
Bluster and bullshit and ultimately bugger all. De Pfeffel would be proud. Might even make you two ministers, the bar ain't set too high these days (Williamson, Hancock, Raab, Patel)...
Im incredulous that this isn’t being celebrated today
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/tampon-tax-abolished-from-today
This is a direct benefit of leaving the EU.
Misogyny rules this forum.
What’s the rate of tax on tampons in Ireland? I’ll save anyone the googling and tell you it’s zero.
Like most of the EU bogeymen it was imaginary and/or overblown that we were being forced to do anything.
Except that Britain was the leading campaigner for the abolition of the tampon tax within the EU. If we were still in the EU and had carried on pushing for abolition rather than having to negotiate Brexit then the whole of Europe rather than just UK may have been abolishing the tampon tax.
Blue passports and tampons, then?
Ok.
What's 5% of GDP?
Blue passports and tampons, then?
Ok.
What’s 5% of GDP?
I’m not sure why you are bothered? Working in the public sector you won’t be affected?
Working in the public sector you won’t be affected?
What does that mean?
Gross Domestic Product- produced in the Private Sector.
No concern of you.... 🤣
I'll say that challenges in importing from the EU will mean some supply chains will re-focus to businesses in the UK. I'll predict that some UK businesses will do well out of this.
Do I believe this will balance against the business lost for the inverse scenario? No I do not.
Did I vote for Brexit? **** no.
But I don't believe it'll be an unmitigated disaster for everyone - and I don't believe the only beneficiaries will be the elite rich as predicted. Plenty of normal people will do well out of it. Many more will of course be ****ed by it.
But the message that it will be a disaster for everyone is inherently wrong and should not be propagated - it's too easily debunked and distracts from the real truth. Which is that in general we are now in a worse position than we were before. And crucially, that gap will increase over time.
I would liken this to the debate around getting trade deals done. I distinctly remember (and believed) the claims that it would be impossible to line up reasonable trade deals due to the timeframes and our lack of experience, thus we would be bounced onto WTO terms with most countries. But what has appeared to happen is that loads have rolled over from the existing EU agreements. Am I wrong? For me, the disadvantages will crystallise when we are renegotiating existing deals or looking for new partnerships. Perhaps would have been better to focus on that rather than the extreme position of "trade deals will be impossible".
Gross Domestic Product- produced in the Private Sector.
No concern of you…. 🤣
GDP quite obviously funds the public sector though.
But also, some things NEED to be supra national, such as the environment.
I don't disagree. Where interests align it obviously makes sense to have agreements with other countries, and as much as I distrust the tories I haven't seen any evidence we won't be doing that on things like climate change. Doesn't mean we have to be in an economic and political union to do it though. There might even be benefits on the environmental front, like the end of CAP and unjustifiable subsidies to farmers.
Not one of you has ever come up with anything tangible
I'm a remainer. Voted to stay in, voted for the party offering a second referendum, would vote to go back in tomorrow if it was realistically possible. I can at least see the other point of view though (outside of the racist nonsense), and I can see that despite my own opinion there are some things which might be an advantage if the right people do the right things at the right time. That's not going to happen though if we don't break out of this self-destructive cycle of abuse and idiocy on both sides.
something that will get us back the £200bn
Did you pay for that? Will you pay for it in future? You didn't and you won't because the money came from the same place as all the money currently paying for covid. If the cost of brexit ever had to paid by the taxpayer it would never have happened.
Anyway I'm done with this for now, there's nothing new to say other than responding to reactionary ranting and abuse. I'll come back when something new happens and see if anyone's managed to rise above hoping people in Sunderland lose their jobs.
it’s plainly to the UK’s advantage for its government to be able to make policy without having some of it restrained by treaties with other supra-national organisations
That kind of attitude has really worked out well for North Korea, Iran and Cuba. Their make stupidity great again experiments have worked out really well and hasn’t at all led to a superpower ruining them. I mean at least they’re saving 350M a week though right?
Where interests align it obviously makes sense to have agreements with other countries,
And where your actions piss off much bigger neighbours you shut the **** up and toe the line.
Which Britain will have to do, now it’s the EU’s little bitch.
Anyway I’m done with this for now, there’s nothing new to say other than responding to reactionary ranting and abuse.
So, you won’t be identifying some of the benefits of leaving (there are many)… and crucially, who will see the benefits and why? Because, this is crucial. If Labour are to be the “cheerleaders for the benefits of Brexit” that you suggest, they need to tell people how they will benefit. And your opposition to Labour seeking to build on, and improve, ties with the other countries of Europe, completely ignores the point that all the parties will be proposing improvements come the next election, including the Tories. If Labour go into that election as the only party not proposing ways of improving on the deal signed last year, just as we come up the four year renegotiation of the arrangements that is set in stone in that deal, they will be seen as irrelevant.
Doesn’t mean we have to be in an economic and political union to do it though.
I disagree. A basic treaty can be ignored or left without consequence (see USA/Paris) and that's why they are usually conservative in scope. The EU can do more because all its members must comply and the only way out is too damaging for most to contemplate.
Blue passports and tampons, then?
An the possibility of cash back without having to buy anything 🙂
Hmmm other than a whole lot of the marketing terms used to purchase Brexit ‘sovereignty’ and ‘control’ we never seem to get an answer, but the things lost are staggering.
Magic beans anyone.
Magic beans anyone.
Being delivered by unicorn later today.
I’m looking forward to see what anti tax avoidance scheme gets launched first thou and what type of industry the fabled Freeports we previously got rid of are going to be.
More trite, substance-less bollocks from another Brexie who hasn’t got the first clue about what they voted for. Or does know, but doesn’t really want to say.
Tedious, tedious, tedious.
Four and a half ****ing years and what?
Blue passports?
Why don’t you just come out and admit it. YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT ANY POSITIVES ARE OR EVEN MIGHT BE.
Earlier in this thread I tried to put forward positives and I'll admit I couldn't, we don't know them yet. I agreed that Brexit was a mistake. What I can't agree with is the sheer amount of negative, conspiratorial tripe spouted on here by negative people who lack the imagination to move on. There will be winners and losers like everything in life.
And.....err.....I don't work in public sector. Not quite sure where that idea came from, but this is Brexitworld.
Brexitworld - a post-truth, part comedy, part tragedy world where a few people deliberately spread untruths and a large number of people unwittingly spread untruths. A looking glass world where allegiance (either by genuine stupidity or cynical opportunism) to a fundamentally stupid project is the sole requirement for high office.
A world where a semi-coherent piss artist, who hides in a fridge to avoid scrutiny during an election campaign holds an 80 seat majority.
A world where someone as useless as Matt Hancock can look around the table at cabinet and be sure he isn't the most inept person there.
A world in which removal of rights is celebrated as some kind of progress and a trade 'deal' that actually erects barriers to trade is hailed in many quarters as a 'victory'.
**** Brexit.
What I can’t agree with is the sheer amount of negative, conspiratorial tripe spouted on here by negative people who lack the imagination to move on.
Hmm so we’ve got to be positive whilst you figure out the benefits 🙂
I agreed that Brexit was a mistake.
Technically speaking not a mistake. 52% of those who voted in the referendum did so for Leave.
That this was largely achieved by appealing to the worst inner prejudices of a seemingly 'developed' country and electorate means, for me, the whole thing stinks. Top to bottom. Beginning to end (wherever that may be).
Kelvin, embracing brexit and championing the positives does not mean you cannot adjust/improve the deal at every opportunity.
Keith and bozzer have both said the future looks bright but we hope there are clear differences to those visions.
We can still build a fair society with a lower GDP, immigration control, trade barriers etc. These are the cards we now have. The positives of leaving are very similar to the positives of remaining a member👍👌 I'm not convinced it's a winning tactic to keep blubbing about the shitty cards, embrace what you've got and play those cards in a progressive manner. I think Keith gets it👍 the problem is that bozzer also gets it and is way ahead of the pack.
Of course there are different opinions on a winning formula and if a party can win the next election by complaining about the deal and pushing for reversal then fairymuff.
We can still build a fair society with a lower GDP, immigration control, trade barriers etc.
See “We can’t buy soap but at least we’re all equally poor” Cuba for further detail.
Opportunity found! Let's play cards!
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Anyway it’s all going to be fine, remember that Mussolini performed a Brexit from the League of Nations in 1937. Six years later, his corpse was hanging upside-down, suspended on meat hooks from the roof of a petrol station.
As I said, everything’s going to be awesome. Get with the team guys.
Even on sovereignty, Brexit is a loser.
Sovereignty is not an absolute. It is the degree to which one can do whatever one wants at any given time. But as adults we come to realise you can’t do whatever you want any old time. Want a house? Give up some personal sovereignty to the mortgage company. Want a good income? Give up some personal sovereignty to customers or an employer (yes the self employed can tell customers to get lost, but they don’t get that income - compromises).
We are about to find out that by giving up our role as a rule setter in the EU (and getting a little sovereignty back) we put ourselves in a position where we have to accept other people’s rules in order to trade and keep the country supplied. BoJo’s surrender to the EU on the trade deal being a case in point.
How has he managed to get a deal that allows the EU to sell goods to us and has no provision for us selling services to them? Fool.
We start 2021 a diminished and less sovereign country. But we have accepted being poorer to facilitate that.
(Except for the monied elites - they’ll get richer).
How has he managed to get a deal that allows the EU to sell goods to us and has no provision for us selling services to them? Fool.
‘The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.’
1984
Your just lacking in imagination, stop picking over the details 🙂 and rejoice in what powers the imaginary deal gives us.
Brandon Lewis seems like he is trolling.
It's Hobson's choice. Yeah we can set whatever rules you like. But we have to align with the EU rules from a practical standpoint. And they can set whatever rules they want.
What I can’t agree with is the sheer amount of negative, conspiratorial tripe spouted on here by negative people who lack the imagination to move on.
There's a fair bit of embittered ranting, yes. But that's no different to the empty crowing from the other side. But the analysis and comment must continue.
See “We can’t buy soap but at least we’re all equally poor” Cuba for further detail.
With the major difference being that Cuba's isolation was forced upon them; we have forced it on ourselves 🙁
Only problem is you can't preserve old cars in the UK climate.
With the major difference being that Cuba’s isolation was forced upon them; we have forced it on ourselves
I mean going communist just off the coast of North America would be like us using Brexit to announce or insinuate a long term plan to destabilise the European uni....oh wait....shit
Haha, love a bit of weird stw logic.
The next party to lead the country will be off the back of a 'we reject the Cuba model' campaign. Good luck with that👍👍
Haha, love a bit of weird stw logic.
How is it weird?
The next party to lead the country will be off the back of a ‘we reject the Cuba model’ campaign. Good luck with
And I will wholeheartedly vote for that party, to make the lives of Northern brexiteers everywhere - worse.
As I’ve said, I’ll spend the resultant drop in taxes for me on European goods. Also voting Tory means the Scots will flee quicker and then I’ll put my best fake Scottish accent on and try to fit in with them. I might pay TJ for Scottishy lessons but I’m sure it would just end with me being knocked out.
There’s a fair bit of embittered ranting, yes. But that’s no different to the empty crowing from the other side. But the analysis and comment must continue.
Its toxic and completely unproductive at this point. The referendum happened, Brexit has happened, yet some seem unwilling to accept it, well tough shit, it is what it is. You can either be productive and see how this situation can be turned for the better (somehow) or keep moaning and bitching like neurotic teenagers. Unless remainers toughen up we'll have another 20 years of uninterrupted Tory governments.
Look at how much shit @dazh got for trying to be somewhat positive.
The UK has it very good, and will almost certainly have it very good compared to the majority of countries in Europe.
Anyway it’s all going to be fine, remember that Mussolini performed a Brexit from the League of Nations in 1937. Six years later, his corpse was hanging upside-down, suspended on meat hooks from the roof of a petrol station.
As I said, everything’s going to be awesome. Get with the team guys.
The intervening six years weren't all that great, though...
I might pay TJ for Scottishy lessons but I’m sure it would just end with me being knocked out.
I'm no good for that - I can't even do a decent scottish accent!
The UK has it very good, and will almost certainly have it very good compared to the majority of countries in Europe.
Actually certainly do worse than the rest of europe. We have already had a huge hit to the economy. Brexit is going to mean lost gdp of 5% ish every year from now on.
Brandon Lewis seems like he is trolling
Good point, and I am trying my best not to play the game that the current government/ruling party are in to i.e. tweet dumb shit and watch people tear each other to shreds over it.
But I think he might just be a bit dim given he was yesterday straight up lying that there is no border in the Irish Sea.
No border, but different trading arrangements that give them a unique opportunity. Magic.
Its toxic and completely unproductive at this point. The referendum happened, Brexit has happened, yet some seem unwilling to accept it, well tough shit, it is what it is. You can either be productive and see how this situation can be turned for the better (somehow) or keep moaning and bitching like neurotic teenagers
With that kind of lame-ass thinking, we'd have never have left.
Only problem is you can’t preserve old cars in the UK climate.
As a former Havana resident can I point out you can’t also preserve them with out a supply of essential parts from a supplier. You get under a classic built US beast and find a Lada engine with a bit of a scaffolding pole for a prop shaft.
Welcome to BrexitbritainCarRepairs.co
https://flic.kr/p/Q1x5bT
https://flic.kr/p/R1Xt6U
Unless remainers toughen up we’ll have another 20 years of uninterrupted Tory governments
Brexiteers or Eurosceptics as they were once known didn't stop pissing and moaning for 40 years. They've had Conservative governments for 30 of those 40, and have ended up getting everything they want.
Unless remainers toughen up we’ll have another 20 years of uninterrupted Tory governments
Oh no, a thousand year Tory reich like we warned the lexiteers about. Sounds great, I’ll vote for it.
Then certain English demographics will understand what it is ACTUALLY like to live in a country with high levels of inequality.
Actually, **** it. Stay salty. I'm done with this thread for a while.