Apart from a time when the BNP appropriated the Union flag I don't ever remember feeling ashamed of its use as I do these days.
It's very sad, for me, a heart breaking symbolic moment.
Just like to say thanks to the brexit voters...
I have lost -
Freedom of movement
Free healthcare
A *ing huge lump of my pension fund
My retirement to the South of France
My self respect
Three very good clients for my business
My temper
I hope to * Scotland vote out as i will be relocating me, my family and my business
my passport definitely says Éire Ireland on the cover.
Others definitely say Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Konungariket Sverige and New Zealand Aotearoa. Mine says United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Point being?
I hope to **** Scotland vote out as i will be relocating me, my family and my business
It’s pretty well 6 months since we moved, our house build is underway (delayed thanks to COVID/Brexit) and we hope to be in by the summer.
Surprising number of English accents - working hard to get my Scottish one back.
Feeling very sad here too, mainly for the loss of opportunities for my boy when he's a bit older, and just the sheer dumb insular idiocy of the whole thing.
Feels like we have just rewound time by 50years. Tragedy unfolds in front of our eyes.
And here's how it ends/begins, not with a bang, but with a whimper. No disaster porn of trucks in queues, just the slow erosion of business opportunities. Trade barriers now exist everywhere, and our single market is reduced to England, Scotland and Wales.
So disappointing.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1344724827215683587
Have we done this yet?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/the-left-brexit-economic-uk
I've never agreed with Elliot's position on brexit, but it does raise some good points about the failure of neoliberalism and how the left need to be bolder and stop mourning their defeat. The trouble though is that labour will still be split on the issue for probably the next two elections as remainers are not going to be able to let it go and look forwards. We can already see here and elsewhere everyone digging deeper trenches, determined to pursue this stupid culture war to its inevitable and destructive conclusion.
If anyone still can't see that the only "opportunities" of brexit are yet more disaster capitalism and right-wing populism then there is little hope for them.
If anyone still can’t see that the only “opportunities” of brexit are yet more disaster capitalism and right-wing populism then there is little hope for them.
So what's the alternative? Seems to me the best way to ensure more disaster capitalism and populism is to be fatalistic and give in to it. That's the entire point of Elliot's piece. So are the remainer left just going to give up and allow it to happen, or grow some balls and figure out how to turn it to their advantage? I know what I would prefer.
Have we done this yet?
Yeah, Dazh... but unfortunately in the other parallel thread. The man is an utter tool.
or grow some balls and figure out how to turn it to their advantage?
Go on... I mean, that's mighty emotive language, but it means absolutely nothing.
Go on… I mean, that’s mighty emotive language, but it means absolutely nothing.
It means not giving up on ambitions of the UK being closer to the EU. This deal is a stepping stone on which to build, not a final destination. Even if the Tory want to sell it like a "final destination" it doesn't have to be, after all the relationship between the UK and the EU is foreign policy of whatever government is in power.
I agree with every word of that baboonz. To build on, and improve on, the deal, you need to identify where it is weak, and persuade the public to support you in what you are proposing. All the parties will be doing this at the next election, if only because renegotiation is written into the agreement that's just kicked in.
So what’s the alternative?
Naive and old-fashioned I may be, but I think honesty is usually a good starting point.
Without honesty, I don't think there is much chance of a good outcome. Fantasists and populists will just get more entrenched and find another scapegoat for their failures.
The problem with disaster socialism is that you only get the disaster bit, and not the socialism bit.
To build on, and improve on, the deal, you need to identify where it is weak, and persuade the public to support you in what you are proposing
I vaguely remember when people weren’t happy with the poll tax but once it was implemented and people felt it the real anger kicked off.
A few miles in post Brexit shoes is probably needed then I think the persuading may be less and if you get the Facebook adverts right and a catchy 3 word slogan.
I vaguely remember when people weren’t happy with the poll tax but once it was implemented and people felt it the real anger kicked off.
Coincided with me doing Erasmus. I told the poll tax people I was emigrating to Italy and forgot to tell them when I got back. Allegedly.
I did know someone who worked in the section trying to catch up with non-payers. As a non-payer himself he moved his name down the list of those they were chasing every time it got near the top.
Yep, thinking about it they built a whole new office to collect it in my old stomping ground of St George,Bristol, probably only investment in the area at the time.
The trouble though is that labour will still be split on the issue for probably the next two elections as remainers are not going to be able to let it go and look forwards
Seems to me the best way to ensure more disaster capitalism and populism is to be fatalistic and give in to it.
I think you just put my own argument forward for me.
Looking forwards require an analysis of what needs to be improved beyond what we have now. This is where the political battles of he next decade lie. “Getting behind” the new arrangements that Johnson has negotiated for us will put him on the front foot ready for the next election. This new relationship we have with the EU is flawed in every area from the UK side… there is no putting that behind us, there is pointing at the issues and calling for our politicians to “have the balls” to propose fixing them.
I will say of Larry Elliott something I once saw written of the 'eccentric' Warwickshire all-rounder Paul Smith.
I only hate him for three reasons:
1. He's crap at what he does.
2. He's a pillock.
3. He's got a crap pillock's haircut.
He talks utter shite and is more deluded than the far right nutters - they actually stand half a chance of getting what they want out of Brexit.
A moment of 'national realisation' and the sweeping to power of a left wing government?
**** off! Go on Larry, tell me another one....
I read this
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/01/residents-furious-brexit-lorry-park-kent-village
then googled how many in Kent voted brexit
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36616172
then I laughed.
It means not giving up on ambitions of the UK being closer to the EU. This deal is a stepping stone on which to build, not a final destination.
On the contrary, any inkling of 'closer ties' will allow accusations that labour want to take us back in through the back door, through undemocratic means. They need to be enthusiastic cheerleaders of the potential advantages of being out, attack the tories on their failure to make brexit the success they said it would be, and persuade people how labour can do it better. That's going to be very hard for remainers to accept, but it's the only hope labour have of turning the issue to their advantage, and probably the only hope of winning an election any time soon.
then I laughed
Stop laughing at people. Back them. When they say…
…they feel “betrayed” and “trapped” by the “lies” of the government over Brexit.
…remind them that they now know who not to trust.
then I laughed
Gave me a laugh 😂
Was just checking if there is any impact on postage from some EU bike shops, looking at Bike Discount and I can't find UK in list of countries at all.
They need to be enthusiastic cheerleaders of the potential advantages of being out
Have you identified some, and who exactly they benefit and how? You’ve been asked several times.
attack the tories on their failure to make brexit the success they said it would be, and persuade people how labour can do it better
Come on then… how will Labour do what the Tories promised, but better… without improving the agreements we have with all the countries that surround us… we are all ears…
They need to be enthusiastic cheerleaders of the potential advantages of being out
That’s going to be very hard for remainers to accept
Once again you're doing the arguing for me.
The reason it's going to be hard for "us" to accept is because THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO ****ING ADVANTAGES TO BEING OUT. NONE. NIL. NADA.
You are just talking utter horseshit because, as you yourself said in your previous completely contradictory post:
the best way to ensure more disaster capitalism and populism is to be fatalistic and give in to it.
But my SkyGo
https://twitter.com/MissRegardless/status/1344969206635393025?s=20
The fact they're trying to watch fools and horses tells its own tale
On the contrary, any inkling of ‘closer ties’ will allow accusations that labour want to take us back in through the back door, through undemocratic means. They need to be enthusiastic cheerleaders of the potential advantages of being out, attack the tories on their failure to make brexit the success they said it would be, and persuade people how labour can do it better. That’s going to be very hard for remainers to accept, but it’s the only hope labour have of turning the issue to their advantage, and probably the only hope of winning an election any time soon.
There are many ways of moving closer to the EU, give it enough time, and both industry and general population will be asking for SOME aspects of UK's foreign policy to bring them closer to the EU.
The gift that keeps giving
'Betrayed': residents furious over Brexit lorry park to be built next to Kent villages
@mehr - I work with someone whose parents voted Brexit but spend 6 months of the year in Spain and have now applied for Spanish citizenship!!
THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO **** ADVANTAGES TO BEING OUT. NONE. NIL. NADA.
Jesus, it's like talking to brainwashed cultists. If you can't think of the potential advantages of any country or government having greater freedom to set policy as they see fit then you need to think harder.
Kent. 59% Leave.
The most polite thing I can manage is...
🤷♂️
Was just checking if there is any impact on postage from some EU bike shops, looking at Bike Discount and I can’t find UK in list of countries at all.
Theres a thread on that somewhere, but given the lack of actual tariff agreements between the UK and EU don't expect it to be fixed any time soon.
The current state of play:
Jesus, it’s like talking to brainwashed cultists. If you can’t think of the potential advantages of any country or government having greater freedom to set policy as they see fit then you need to think harder.
If each country was isolated maybe, but the world is no longer like that, if you want to make or sell anything It has to meet standards. Standards we no longer have any say in.
If you can’t think of the potential advantages of any country or government having greater freedom to set policy as they see fit then you need to think harder.
Name one that will make a tangible difference that won't trigger immediate sanction from the EU because it doesn't breach the agreement.
If you can’t think of the potential advantages of any country or government having greater freedom to set policy as they see fit then you need to think harder.
Waiting for your examples… including who they benefit, and how. If we (people wanting a Labour government) are to be cheerleaders for the benefits of Brexit… we need examples of what they are, and who they benefit, and how. I mean, we will be challenged, and don’t want to have nothing to back our claims up with.
potential advantages
a) i) Name one.
a) ii) Name one that will realistically happen (looking at you nationalisation/ state aid [oh damn I did the first one for you!]).
b) Explain how these advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
Jesus, it’s like talking to brainwashed cultists.
It is, just not in the way you think.
Waiting for your examples… including who they benefit, and how. If we (people wanting a Labour government) are to be cheerleaders for the benefits of Brexit… we need examples of what they are, and who they benefit, and how. I mean, we will be challenged, and don’t want to have nothing to back our claims up with.
Isn't that the bit where we make some nebulous comment about 'addressing genuine concerns about immigration' whilst winking at the racists one minute and reassuring the moderates the next? Stick a union jack on it and Robert's yer father's brother...
Jesus, it’s like talking to brainwashed cultists. If you can’t think of the potential advantages of any country or government having greater freedom to set policy as they see fit then you need to think harder.
Possibly, in our own little xenophobic post-Brexit world, because 'forrinners'
It also shows an abject failure to understand how policy was set in the EU - IME the Brits were the most fervent advocates and the UK Civil Service the most devoted followers - if there was one country that loved Brussels' bureaucracy, it was the UK. Instead of getting rid of the 30,000 Eurocrats supporting 28 countries, our ire should have been focused on the 500,000 civil servants (and growing cos' Brexit) who just love their paperwork. Sadly, we're still lumbered with them
a) i) Name one.
Having power closer to home is not a bad thing (even in the hands of the tories). I'd prefer it to much more devolved than it is now after brexit, but it's plainly to the UK's advantage for its government to be able to make policy without having some of it restrained by treaties with other supra-national organisations. The EU is another high level abstraction of power which forces compromises and restraints on its member states despite what might be in their own best interests (Greece being an extreme but very relevant example). What is in the interests of Hungary might not be in the interests of the UK or any other country.
From a purely selfish view I'd prefer to give up a bit of power in exchange for the benefits I posessed as a citizen of the EU, and I'd vote to go back in if there was another referendum tomorrow, but that's not going to happen. The job of our political leaders now that we are out is to find ways to make it work and to figure out how we can take advantage of our new situation. For the labour party and wider liberal left that's a huge opportunity. Or you know, we can just carry on whining and let the tories turn us into neo-liberal fantasy island.
it’s plainly to the UK’s advantage for its government to be able to make policy without having some of it restrained by treaties with other supra-national organisations
Umm, that horse bolted decades ago. Whether you like it or not you have to set policies based on international agreements, the alternative being a state nobody does business with.
That aside, you haven't said what policies we can expect to enjoy or explained why they make us better off than we were before. That's what you are asking us to do without actually telling us what we are supposed to be advocating.
Jesus, it’s like talking to brainwashed cultists. If you can’t think of the potential advantages of any country or government having greater freedom to set policy as they see fit then you need to think harder.
100%
It's a new rulebook for the same game,learn the rules and make them work for you. Move on, the world keeps on spinning.
It’s a new rulebook for the same game,learn the rules and make them work for you. Move on, the world keeps on spinning.
Yet more bollox.
Not one of you has ever come up with anything tangible, something that creates wealth for the UK as a whole - something that will get us back the £200bn you've spunked on 'sovereignty' or the +£120bn of long term GDP we'll be losing per year.
Boils my pi55.