It wasn’t long ago that working people had secure jobs, weren’t being ripped off by utility companies, had pensions to look forward to, could get a doctor’s appointment, and could send their kids off to university or college without worrying about how much debt they’ll be in
have you fallen over and hit your head? This may have been the reality in some ****ing alternative Britain that may only be accessible through the back of a wardrobe, but it’s fake nostalgia at best.
Starmer is making a huge mistake today. There are no good options left, but the Labour Party should not be touching this with a barge pole
It's really odd watching people on here who normally preach pragmatism and political expediency call for ideological purity. Such is the nature of brexit I guess. There are no good choices for labour on brexit, there never has been, but it seems some still haven't realised that.
Boris and his ERG chums should be left in complete ownership of this shambles
You think the british billionaire-owned media will allow that to happen? However it pans out they will get away with it, because they always do. I've long been of the opinion that the UK, more than any other country, is in the unchallenged grip of the billionaires, with Murdoch at the top of the oligarchy. Brexit is the proof of that.
With Johnson being openly and explicitly sponsored by the Telegraph, and Gove by The Times... whatever could you mean Dazh?
I agree with all that post by the way.
but it’s fake nostalgia at best.
It's really not. I could take you back to my hometown and introduce you to any number of working class people who lived their lives in exactly this environment and are now enjoying their retirement with the security of a decent pension behind them. My dad is one of them. He's not stupid, he can see that working class kids are not going to grow up with the same security and opportunities that he and his kids enjoyed, and he's pretty pissed off about that.
Labour voting for the deal is cold hard logic but logic has long since left the brexit building. Starmer is hoping that people will take a nuanced view when they consider labours involvement in this but he seems to be wildly overestimating the voting public
He's just allowing the government and their media friends to spin today's vote for their own ends, for years and over election cycles
They'll drag you down into Chinatown starmer
I can see why he's doing it but abstaining is least worst option, certainly now that ERG are on board with the deal.
And announcing they would most probably be voting for the deal before they'd seen it was perhaps his biggest mistake
I'd love to see a switcheroo with a a 3 line whip to abstain but that's obviously pie in the sky
The only uncertainty is the abstentions and whether or not it'll just be greater London backbenchers, surely some shadow cabinet resignations by the end of the day? Which is just grandstanding if there's a reshuffle on the way
At the end of the day, with an 80 seat majority and even the ERG onside the Labour Party is utterly irrelevant. This crappy deal is going through today, whatever
It doesn’t matter what they do. It’ll make * all difference, but by abstaining you can at least you can say ‘this is * all to do with us. Blame that lot for what’s about to happen, not us’
**** that, as a revolutionary yourself Dazh given half a chance the public would string you up. Most of the public are petty vindictive self centred conservative reactionaries who can’t be trusted to run a bath, let alone a system of collective local govt. there’d be poor houses, public flogging, and curfews before the end of the first week of “people power”
I couldn't agree more. Brexit is the classic expression of this petty nastiness and insularity.
Idiots stripped the shelves of pasta and bog roll a few months back because they wanted to be 'alright Jack'. They also stripped out pretty much all the fresh veg - most of which probably got chucked after a week.
Daz'll still be banging on about 'salt of the earth working class heroes who just want a voice' as the last two are beating each other to death over a bag of orzo pasta - that neither of them has the faintest idea what to do with.
Solidarity? Bullshit.
Those Britannia Unchained 'authors' knew full well what they are working with here - a nation with a large enough % of people that don't give a shit about anyone but themselves - perfect raw material for a race to the bottom.
All the Lexiteers who actually think the shock of the next few years is going to rekindle socialism are utterly deluded.
The vote is irrelevant. This Government already has the power to put put through without parliamentary approval. Starmers best bet would be to have not taken part in the debate at all.
but by abstaining you can at least you can say ‘this is **** all to do with us. Blame that lot for what’s about to happen, not us’
It'll also allow the tories to say 'labour refused to accept the result of the referendum and tried to overturn it'. That's what lost them the last election, and it overides every other consideration. It's interesting though, because Starmer's position proves the point that brexit was the key issue in the 2019 election defeat. If it wasn't he wouldn't be doing what he's doing now.
And I cannot for the life of me understand why Starmer is going to vote for this shitty deal. It will go through anyway (clue - the ERG are happy with it which either means it is going to be dreadful for 99.99% because of its contents, but more likely its omissions). Labour should either vote against or abstain with the sentiment that this is a Tory mess caused by nasty parochial Tory politics. He should end by saying that Labour will continue to provide effective opposition and will welcome 'back' their Red Wall voters when they've grown up a bit.
That’s what lost them the last election, and it overides every other consideration.
No. It. Doesn't.
Labour should make Johnson own the shit show.
By voting No or abstaining Labour will be essentially saying “we’d like no deal please”
Not at all. they would be saying " this is a shit tory deal - own it. its nothig n to do with us"
It’s really odd watching people on here who normally preach pragmatism and political expediency call for ideological purity.
Its not ideological purity - its real politics. Voting for this shit deal will forever give the tories a way out. any critism and then " you voted for it" Make them own it in its entirity. labour do not have to vote against - merely abstain
but by abstaining you can at least you can say ‘this is **** all to do with it.
nope today’s vote is either “yes please I’d like a deal” or “no thanks I’d like no-deal”. There are no other options on offer, that’s your choice today.
In many ways, it’s a good day to be a remainer and a bad day for the Brexiteers, because as bad as this deal is, it’s an easier place to start broader negotiations for more favourable terms than the alternative.
Long term view; this is the start of the end of the Brexit experiment
Idiots stripped the shelves of pasta and bog roll a few months back because they wanted to be ‘alright Jack’.
You do talk some bollocks. Having an 'I'm alright jack' attitude is not unique to brexit voters or the working class. Must be lovely though for you up there on your moralistic pedestal, looking down on the uncouth hordes fighting for scraps. Get over yourself FFS.
Yeah I don't actually mind Brexit so much now, because it's mostly **** wit brexiteers who won't be able to afford it. I won't have to see as many thickies tanked up on cheap holidays in Europe.
Oh dear, how sad, nevermind.
nope today’s vote is either “yes please I’d like a deal” or “no thanks I’d like no-deal”. There are no other options on offer, that’s your choice today.
No - the third choice is - its a tory mess, we want no part of it. abstain,.
No – the third choice is – its a tory mess, we want no part of it. abstain,.
None of us, not even Starmer actually knows what the right approach is for labour, because its a problem without a solution. Starmer is clearly taking the view that labour should never again be allowed to be labelled as the party who wouldn't accept the 'will of the people' (a stupid phrase BTW but one that hits home). We'll just have to wait and see if he's right. Personally I think he's taking the right approach. The only hope for labour is to neutralise brexit as much as possible, and the best way to do that is to go with it.
Dazh has nailed it, I feel.
You do talk some bollocks. Having an ‘I’m alright jack’ attitude is not unique to brexit voters or the working class. Must be lovely though for you up there on your moralistic pedestal, looking down on the uncouth hordes fighting for scraps. Get over yourself FFS.
Truth hurts, eh?
And in any case, you are right that the attitudes I have disdain for are not restricted to a particular 'class' or whatever. But they are too prevalent across society for there to be any hope of some kind of 'Peaceful British Revolution' - of the type usually named after a flower.
It ain't going to happen.
If there is so much of a sniff the press and social media will be full of stories about how anyone other than the Tories want to take your three bed semi off of you and give it to a benefits cheat / single parent family / foreigner. Possibly with a "isn't Meghan Markle a devious foreign home wrecker?" 'feature' and a free cut out and keep cross of St. George if they are really feeling the heat.
And the masses will immediately revert to type and start kicking downwards, sideways, upwards, but mainly just kicking. They voted for a jazz-hatted bumbling old Etonian liar who hid in a fridge - because he told them lies they wanted to hear. And he has previously indulged in some wink-wink nudge-nudge racism, which means he is really on their side and a 'straight talker'.
In many ways, it’s a good day to be a remainer and a bad day for the Brexiteers, because as bad as this deal is, it’s an easier place to start broader negotiations for more favourable terms than the alternative.
Accept the deal, start pointing out, from day one, where and how it is flawed. Be ready at the next election to propose major improvements to how we work with the rest of continent, but in a way that makes it clear that is about improving on the deal "for us"... in the national interest... etc. That's not what I want... but it really does look like the least worst option for Labour at this point, if they want to ever be in a position to start making a difference.
It ain’t going to happen.
There is a (mostly) peaceful revolution under way right now. But you are right... it is one based on kicking out at others... even if doing so with an ever increasing blooded and bruised set of toes.
According to the grauniad most folk want labour to vote for the deal. I find that surprising. to me voting for it is a monumental blunder on a scale I have not seen from labour for generations. Its worse than standing with the tories on the independence ref, its worse than Ian Murry and his vote tory to get rid of snp idiocy
IMO its the end of labour as an political force for good if they vote for it. I consider it that fundamantal. voting for the deal means the tories can deflcrt blame onto labour. Labour must make the tories own this mess lock stock and barrel
According to the grauniad most folk want labour to vote for the deal. I find that surprising.
Margaret Beckett has just stated that not voting for the Deal is voting for No Deal. If even she doesn't understand the true position then what chance has the average Guardian reader?
What other deal will be available this week?
None of us, not even Starmer actually knows what the right approach is for labour, because its a problem without a solution. Starmer is clearly taking the view that labour should never again be allowed to be labelled as the party who wouldn’t accept the ‘will of the people’ (a stupid phrase BTW but one that hits home). We’ll just have to wait and see if he’s right. Personally I think he’s taking the right approach. The only hope for labour is to neutralise brexit as much as possible, and the best way to do that is to go with it.
Yep, damned if you do, damned if you don’t, every options a lose lose position.
Although I don’t think Starmer should have said he was voting for it before it was published.
Course it’s all for show, as my right honourable member scotroutes says, Boris doesn’t have to have to put it to a vote.
I suppose we should be putting bets on how long it is before Forage and co decide it’s not the deal they wanted.
According to the grauniad most folk want labour to vote for the deal. I find that surprising.
Brexit fatigue. Most people just want it over and done with, including many remainers. Starmer I suspect is one of them, the last thing he wants to be talking about come the next election is brexit.
Not sure, it could be all about Brexit the next election.
Once people get to unwrap the kinders surprise of Brexit who knows what they’ll think.
There is no third choice TJ that option let the table months and months ago. Labour voters voted for Brexit as well...
Starmer I suspect is one of them, the last thing he wants to be talking about come the next election is brexit.
He won't have any choice. This "deal" has been written so that most decisions* are kicked down the road... including the one "win" in the deal... tariff free access for most goods... to be renegotiated in four years time. It will dominate the next election, sadly.
[* the ones the UK government needs to make, but this one refuses to]
I can see why he’s doing it but abstaining is least worst option, certainly now that ERG are on board with the deal.
Agree that now the ERG are on board with the deal and there's no risk of it becoming no deal by default, there's no reason for Starmer and Labour to vote for it. There's nothing to be saved by voting for it now, and doing so just gives the Press and the Tories a big stick to beat him with.
I do find it strange that dazh is all over the Starmer thread decrying him for being too 'corporate' and 'centrist' and insufficiently left wing whilst a mere two clicks away he is here applauding him for enabling the biggest 'legitimate' nationalist political event ever to happen in Britain.
Dangerous stuff combining socialism with nationalism.
There’s nothing to be saved by voting for it now, and doing so just gives the Press and the Tories a big stick to beat him with.
Both options give them a big stick to beat Labour with though... you get that, yes? Abstaining (which is what I'd rather Labour did) would be used as a populist stick to beat Labour just as readily and successfully. The voters that would work best with are arguably the ones Labour most need to win over to voting for them.
Brexit fatigue. Most people just want it over and done with
Not Theresa. 😉
Despite Mr Johnson’s calls for Britain to move on from Brexit, she called on the government to resume negotiations “with alacrity and vigour” to improve the UK’s position on services.
The “Deal” is another carefully orchestrated deceit.
Like the the way the ‘withdrawal agreement’ was allowed to be misconstrued as the ‘oven ready’ deal.
A useful sound bite which didn’t require a bus this time.
Personal call is that Starmer should not ask Labour to abstain, nor should he ask them to vote in any particular direction.
Rather as a matter key to Britain’s future but where many people have deeply held views, it should be left to MPs’ conscience. He unlike BoJo will not bully his MPs (and deselect / de-whip those who don’t comply). He will vote personally in the manner which he believes in all the circumstances, and with the year end providing a gun to his head, is the right way at this time.
Dangerous stuff combining socialism with nationalism.
We're heading back in the direction of me being a nazi sympathiser again?
It will dominate the next election, sadly.
I fear you're right, but not in the way you think. It will be 'we got brexit done' and a load of jingoistic nonsense about Britannia unleashed etc. Brexit will not be the chain round the necks of the tories as everyone assumes, the tory press will make sure of that. Add in a bit of 'we beat covid too' and the tories are a shoe-in. In fact I'm pretty confident they'll increase their majority in '24 (or '23 once they've got rid of the fixed parliament act).
We’re heading back in the direction of me being a nazi sympathiser again?
I'd really like you to have a go at squaring your stance on Brexit with your stance on where the Labour Party should 'go next'. With the outcomes you would deem desirable.
Dangerous stuff combining socialism with ethnonationalism.
There fixed it for you.
I’d really like you to have a go at squaring your stance on Brexit with your stance on where the Labour Party should ‘go next’.
Do you even understand my stance on brexit or labour? I doubt you do, so you'll need to explain first where you think I can't square the two things.
Tricky decision for Labour, the pros and cons have already been hashed out above.
I generally belive that if you are an MP you should vote on things - that is your job.
I don't particulary agree with 3 line whips either, as I think thay can/are be anti-democratic and encorage cronyism. And let's face it, if your voting against your leader, you're in the wrong party.
I think Starmer should allow a free vote, and see where the chips fall.
whipping to vote for will force a rebellion which will be very damaging.
521 for 73 against
Well, if Starmer doesn't want to come out pro European - I won't be bothering to vote Labour next time. Same goes for my friends, they'll lose the younger vote (13-35) which just about saved them from total annihilation last time. Goodbye you useless donkeys, maybe you'll form a government in 2045.
Once the SNP have got a date for their next leave vote, I'll be moving to Scotland to try and pass myself off as a local and annoy TJ.
I've thought labour was 2 parties trapped in one body for quite a while, they should really just split, but I suspect it's too cushty as it is, for individual MPs, so that's how they will stay.
