Any criticism of the EU is tantamount to treason.
Far from it. Lazy cliched blaming of modern Germany can be challenged though. The Right don’t have a monopoly of anti-german sentiment, I hear it just as often from the Left, sadly. A very English problem.
Last decent PM we had was Gordon Brown.
He arguably got us to where we are now though, by becoming PM. He was pretty much the opposite of Johnson… very capable in the post, but without the charm needed to win an election.
Waking up to all this now - wow can't believe we've had such an abundance of rights ripped from us. Feeling extremely bitter.
Mogrim - does Spanish residency allow freedom of movement across the EU or do you need citizenship for that?
I think I've managed to bag Spanish residency but writing this from Italy where a lot of my friends live, now think I chose the wrong country.
The loss of freedom for zero gain is unacceptable. Where do we go from here?
Where do we go from here?
Get rich quick. Your worries won’t be shared by the very well off. The loss of rights only reduced the life opportunities of “us” not “them”.
I think I’ve managed to bag Spanish residency but writing this from Italy where a lot of my friends live, now think I chose the wrong country.
Did you hedge your bets and get the driving licence swap process started !!
A very English problem
Doubtful.
The Right don’t have a monopoly of anti-german sentiment
FFS it’s not anti-German to point out the fact that the German govt is just as much a fan of destructive neo-liberal capitalism as ours is. It’s illustrative though that you get so offended by the suggestion.
it’s not anti-German to point out the fact that the German govt is just as much a fan of destructive neo-liberal capitalism as ours is.
Probably not. But I still think you are wrong in that assertion. I can't see any evidence that they are as big a fans of the destructive part as we are. They had to make tough economic choices after reunification, but I can't see it was driven by ideology.
quite. i'm not sure where the 'destructive' bit comes in. capitalism has many problems but it's lifted many people out of poverty around the world. i'm not in favour of unchecked capitalism BTW.
i think you'll also find very little support for the idea that greece's issues have been handled well from anyone posting here. greece, and to a marginally lesser extent italy, portugal, and spain all need to get their economies straight. nor for that matter will you find any support for the idea the EU is in some way perfect. there's plenty to criticise about both the EU and the Euro but the pursuit of purity will get you nowhere. perfect is the enemy of good. ask labour.
nor for that matter will you find any support for the idea the EU is in some way perfect.
I don't think I've seen much at all on the subject.
capitalism has many problems but it’s lifted many people out of poverty around the world
Absolutely, but three fundamental and massive thing are going to mean that the 'model' has to evolve....
In order of ascending importance (at least from an economic point of view....
1. Climate change.
2. Reliance on finite sources of energy.
But the one that will 'get us' way before the others - and the most simple...
3. Population growth.
The other two pale in significance.
When I was born (a mere 43 years ago) the world population was 4.2 billion. Nowadays = 7.8 billion. We are following pretty much the same curve as E.Coli in a petri dish. With pretty much the same high-level issues to contend with.
Listen to Hans.
He (Gordon Brown) arguably got us to where we are now though, by becoming PM. He was pretty much the opposite of Johnson… very capable in the post, but without the charm needed to win an election.
I have sympathy with that view.
I was thinking he’d have been far better, domestically and internationally, with the C-19 problems than the present second-raters
I was thinking he’d have been far better, domestically and internationally, with the C-19 problems than the present second-raters
I agree.
The evidence of how he acted in 2008 supports that view, I feel.
But, more on topic, his attempts to appeal to a “Britains First” sentiment at the subsequent election fed the idea that immigrants are a problem… which is how we got here. Brown, Cameron, Miliband, May… they may have all later campaigned to stay in the EU, but they all fed the idea that there were no “Controls on immigration”, and that workers born elsewhere were in some way lowering the life chances of those born here… and made the case for Leave for them. But it isn’t over. Having left the EU, the chance to make political gains off the back of blaming immigrants will return again, when the next election is closer. Don’t assume this is just a Conservative or Leave tendency.
Mogrim – does Spanish residency allow freedom of movement across the EU or do you need citizenship for that?
Pretty sure you need citizenship - residency apparently allows me to work here (as I was already working and legally resident) but long-term I'm not planning on risking it. It doesn't take much to imagine the current shower deciding to ban EU workers for whatever reason, and then Spain and the rest taking tit for tat measures.
But it isn’t over. Having left the EU, the chance to make political gains off the back of blaming immigrants will return again, when the next election is closer. Don’t assume this is just a Conservative or Leave tendency.
"they" are always to blame for the problems. Just a case of finding a group to other and rely on people buying the lies.
The current situation is unlikely to change for generations, the abilty of the right/Brexiteers to control the thoughts of poor people is absolute.
I am 58 this will not turn around in my lifetime. No one will take to the streets or man the barricades, Thatcher is a hardly remembered Grimms fairytale from another century along with the prosperity of the working classes of the early 1970s.
The political class of this country and i happily include Blair have bred out "the fight" and removed the structures that supported working people.
It is forgotten the venom that the upper middle class harboured for the working class during the 60s and 70s as Unions stood up and told them to * off.
Finally they absolutely have control..
I watched my old mans birthplace Blyth in Northumberland vote for these *s i watched their Labour MP tell them to do so, i watched their new Tory MP vote against feeding piss poor hungry kids. My great granfather worked at Blyth Colliery i hope to **** he is not watching what his community just did.
I sit and wait for Karma but i think i won't last long enough. I am in the minority with enough memory to put it into perspective but still a minority.
" have sympathy with that view.
I was thinking he’d have been far better, domestically and internationally, with the C-19 problems than the present second-raters"
Mate, Laurel & Hardy would have made a better job of it.
Can we get rid of the cookie consent pop-ups from Friday?
That must be worth a few percent off GDP.
The current situation is unlikely to change for generations, the abilty of the right/Brexiteers to control the thoughts of poor people is absolute
Sadly this is where we are
Can we get rid of the cookie consent pop-ups from Friday?
No, it’s UK law. If the UK does in future change the law to diverge … well, let’s just say there is more value in being able to move data over borders than the man in the street thinks… it’s going to be tricky enough to keep that without rowing back on anything GDPR related. File it under “maybe one day”.
Darn, there goes the single possible benefit that I could think of.
Yep an interesting point that er all these ‘eu’ laws don’t suddenly disappear 1 Jan 21.
Time to get down to details…
1) haulage agreement heavily favours nonUK companies and drivers
https://twitter.com/donnyc1975/status/1343576635598110727?s=21
2) fishing agreement heavily favours nonUK fishing fleets
https://twitter.com/europe1/status/1343456546718674945?s=21
3) rules-of-origin agreement heavily favours nonUK manufacturers
And that's a hat trick!
Can we get rid of the cookie consent pop-ups from Friday?
That's advertising companies not following the law (or at least being very lax in their interpretation of it) - pester enough people enough of the time and they'll hanker after the adverts they really want to pester you with.
I agree 100% with oldmanmtb. I'm a wee bit older (65) and I remember all that and more. I despair for this country, we appear to learn nothing. The only things that matter are our 'glorious' past and as long as we keep living in that past we will never progress as a nation. We need to abolish the monarchy, aristocracy and disestablish the church at the very least. Oh, and stop making war films ..... Rant over.
The only things that matter are our ‘glorious’ past and as long as we keep living in that past we will never progress as a nation.
Vote Leave was a repudiation of 'progress'.
I sit and wait for Karma but i think i won’t last long enough. I am in the minority with enough memory to put it into perspective but still a minority.
I'm 55, come originally from a small northern port who's main export was coal...
Spent my working life based in the South East and travelled the globe with numerous UK companies. It absolutely boils my pi55 when I hear folk saying how we can now trade with other countries, my response is always the same - "name these countries!".
Because I can guarantee I've probably worked in half of them.
Lazy cliched blaming of modern Germany
I'm a little surprised by this characterisation. I thought it was pretty well known that even the Germans admit to deliberately pursuing a policy of a 'low' wage, export driven economy. Low being a relative term. Their stance on a range of EU issues makes far more sense when you accept this view. Everything from allowing refugees residence to the Greek issue are easily explained.
I don't know if this has been mentioned before on here, but does anyone know of a benefit of the new rules/legislation? By which I mean a definitive plus that wasn't available to the UK whilst we were in the EU.
Everything from allowing refugees residence to the Greek issue are easily explained.
Explain away… or, you know, just perhaps, the behaviour of successive Greek governments, and Greek business owners, might more accuracy explain “the Greek issue”. And the refugees issue might be because many Germans, some in positions of power and influence, wanted to do what so obviously needed doing for humanitarian reasons (while we retreated into our normal anti-foreigner approach to the refugee crisis).
I have skimmed the trade deal and you have to wonder just what the **** they have been doing for the last year....
It's full of generalisation and endless "new working parties" no adequacy on data, qualifications, haulage or services. Fishing has no changee really.
Not sure what its achieved? Other than putting the UK in an even weaker position when it comes to negotiating the adequacy stuff.
Speaks volumes that the 27 signed it off one day after it was published.
I think Boris has been well and truly had.
By which I mean a definitive plus that wasn’t available to the UK whilst we were in the EU.
Blue passport
I think the only benefit is the ability to sign trade deals with the rest of the world.... but that opportunity is limited USA, China, Australia, NZ,?
The aim is to sell services, the problem you have is maintaining regulatory alignment with the EU V alignment with other markets and not letting cross contamination of products and services. This will be very difficult and will require multiple systems within businesses.
All the while keeping a level playing field.
Juggling cats.
The only things that matter are our ‘glorious’ past and as long as we keep living in that past we will never progress as a nation.
That will be the glorious past built on 300 years of piracy, invading other countries, killing, enslaving or exploiting the inhabitants and stealing their natural resources.
We're going to need some bigger boats....
Not sure what its achieved? Other than putting the UK in an even weaker position when it comes to negotiating the adequacy stuff.
Well Boris can say Brexits done 🙂
I think Boris has been well and truly had.
I think Covid and Trump losing forced their hand somewhat, but I also think that they think it buys time to diverge and eventually leave the EU's sphere of influence totally.
However, this deal is akin to the planet earth(EU) and the moon(UK) being in its orbit.
You also have to look at the five year 'review' within the agreement. It provides the basis for re-joining the single market, so 2026 at the earliest.
First we have to get rid of this shower of sh*t in 2024, a tough ask with all the obstacles in the way, and some hope that those who voted for this will suffer the most from it, but those 'great unwashed' so to speak never really do learn lessons do they, they just need to be influenced to think a particular way, a lesson to be learn't from the current set of influencers of these people.
Either way, I think the second review in 2031 at the earliest will be the way back in.
And then out of the blue my Dad who's been utterly absent (maybe spoken once a year) for my whole life rings me up to tell me how much we'll thank his lot in the future and that Boris is a true visionary. FFS he used to be the director of a bank and read the Times, now he reads the Mail. I just wanted to tell him to eff off. It's been the hardest moment of Brexit for me.
never really thought about the other uk territories
Don’t forget the crown dependencies… the people of Jersey had no say in Brexit, and now feel under attack from both the UK government and France, as their special status that kept things stable for them was a side product of the UK being in the EU with France.
Read yesterday (BBC) that Rosslare port has had increased interest in the last few hours as a possible way to avoid the UK land bridge. Even though it's an 18 hour journey to Cherbourg it might still be quicker than parking in Kent.
