Mods, will there be a new thread if the deal gets the double thumbs up👍👍
exsee
Free Member
Oh blimey, bozzer’s gone done a mega deal💩
Fingers crossed for a vimto, somebody save us…
Remember kids. Just say 'no' to drugs.
Protectionist eu tariffs are gone, unless I’ve missed something, the plan is to drop virtually all tariffs to zero. So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that.
That is all good and fine if it happens however the bigger worry from me is what will the employment situation be in the UK in 5 years, I mean the tories haven't exactly held the workers rights dear to their hearts ( I do believe there will be jobs but I honestly think the bottom 90% or thereabouts will be worse off)
I've avoided this thread for my own well being.
To get my head around this shit I've come up with the fact that WE DON'T DESERVE TO BE IN THE EU.
For decades the mainlanders have been working together to stop war and generally make life better for everyone. Then there's us, sniping from the sides trying to **** it up at every turn.Like a grumpy sod at a party trying to bring every one down.
Let them prosper and maybe we will get some crumbs.
Then I want my gammon in-laws not to be able to go to spain in their caravan for the winter. Then I want them to moan about it , then I will let rip with 4 years of anger.
I want them right royally ****ed over. ****s.
Anyway , do the gammons like this deal ,or have they been "sold out by traitors"?
Oh yes let’s do a weekend city break to Auckland.
Kilo, not a great example as that's not the trade off, living and working in the EU is the issue, travelling short term is still fine.
Danny, how's the break from your addiction going? How far into the 6 days did you get😱 must post, must post, must post🦃
I’d love to be able to believe in my government and what my country does, like I used to, even a bit.
This is an odd comment. I can't really think of anything this country or its government has done in decades which personally gives me a sense of pride or satisfaction. The institutions of state and the government which oversees them are in their present form constructed primarily to enshrine the power and wealth of those at the very top. Normal working people are only really considered at the level of keeping them dosile so they don't rise up and overthrow the existing establishment.
There really is a lot of rose-tinted nonsense about the pre-brexit UK/EU. The only thing we've achieved of note is finding a way to not kill each other on a regular basis, and that's mostly because we were focused on how to kill a larger, even more threatening group of people. I'll start supporting governments when they take seriously things like climate change, poverty, equality, and provide real fairness and justice for those at the bottom. Until then I'll carry on regarding all of them as the corrupt and self-serving entities that they are.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
Oh **** off. What's stupid thing to say. Typical Anglophone parochial narrow minded shite.
Does anyone know where we are with this deal on temporary exports to the EU in regards to ATA carnets from the 1st. So far the .gov website doesn't seem to have a definitive answer.
It could be the difference between us surviving as we are or changing to a different model where the vast majority of money ends up being spent with local suppliers.
We’re currently in the middle of a socialist utopia.
You what? We are a very long way from that. Perhaps that's why right wingers hate democratic socialism - they don't actually know what it is.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
I would. You just listed three Anglophone ex-British colonies. They're great if you all you want in life is a big house and a big car. But not great for actually experiencing other cultures and enriching your life. Also, they are all prohibitively far away. Too far for me to go from my family. And even then, trading FoM in 27 countries for three (IF it happens) is a shit deal.
Protectionist eu tariffs are gone, unless I’ve missed something, the plan is to drop virtually all tariffs to zero. So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that.
What do you think trade tariffs are for? If we slash all our tariffs to zero from poor countries then that means British businesses will struggle to compete and could be threatened. That's why import tariffs exist. Export tariffs on the other hand are there to prevent all our stuff from being flogged somewhere else thereby upsetting the trade balance in a negative way. If you commit to these things just to get cheap consumer goods you're opening a huge can of worms. I'm not an economist but I do try to pay attention to how things work. Your position strikes me as rather naive.
For decades the mainlanders have been working together to stop war and generally make life better for everyone. Then there’s us, sniping from the sides trying to **** it up at every <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">turn.</span>
Oh give over. It's true that here in the UK we have a uniquely craven and venal elite ruling over us, possibly the standout in the western world for naked corruption and self-interest, but please don't fool yourself that The EU or European governments are much different. All these governments have the same problems. The french are as stratified as we are and have a class system which is every bit, if not more enshrined as ours, with all the corruption that entails. The germans are held back by a government interested only in holding down wages so they can sell stuff to others as cheap as possible to keep the industrial magnates in their exalted positions. Spain is still suffering from the shadow of fascism and has huge internal schisms, and where to start with Italy? A country still infected with all the corruption and violence of one ruled by gangsters. It wasn't long ago that their PM was going to bunga-bunga parties and embezzling millions from the public purse. And then there's the EU itself, which recently chose to impoverish an entire nation at the altar of free market neo-liberalism for no other reason than to prevent German banks from losing billions of ill-considered loans which never should have been lent to those who were never going to be able to repay them. Need I go on?
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
That is one of the stupidest things I've seen written in a long time.
Good illustration of why the remainers are despairing however.. Basically you are asked to cite benefits of brexit, and one of only 2 examples you can come up with is clearly total and utter bullshit..
The germans are held back by a government interested only in holding down wages so they can sell stuff to others as cheap as possible to keep the industrial magnates in their exalted positions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage
The germans are held back by a government interested only in holding down wages so they can sell stuff to others as cheap as possible
Eh?
After the nordics, by all measures Germany has the best wages in the EU, certainly better than UK & have much stronger union & industry relationship than most others too
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage
exsee
Free Member
Mods, will there be a new thread if the deal gets the double thumbs up👍👍
Theres no doubt that itll get through EP, after all EU just secured a deal that continues tarifs free trade in goods where they have a £90bn surplus, but not for services where we have a £23bn surplus
I'm not sure that the brexiteers MPs are smart enough to realise this yet, so they'll vote it thru anyway
And all macron had to do was shut the ports for 2 days to get Johnson to fold!
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
A) a possibility
B) have you a citation for how many prefer three very distant countries that are a flight away for travel and work, over 27 countries on our doorstep and a train, bus, drive, cycle, ferry or flight away?
After the nordics, by all measures Germany has the best wages in the EU
It's all relative. Germany is a better place to be a worker than the UK no doubt (where isn't?), but the german government have followed an unnecessarily prudent fiscal policy for decades which effectively held down wages. If I was a german worker instead of celebrating being a bit richer than my UK counterparts, I might be asking why given the huge economic output I wasn't a lot more better off. Just like here in the UK, those who benefited most from economic growth were not the people at large.
EDIT : not getting dragged into a debate about Germany… by any economic or social measure… if you’re not in the top 10%, you are much better off being in post Brexit Germany than post Brexit Britain. Keep throwing the Lexit stones if you want… we all know who’s windows are more likely to end up smashed over the coming years. I’ll leave you to it Dazh.
Wasn't there someone on here who emigrated to Canada (or planned to)? From memory they were in a favoured profession that the Canadians had a shortage of.
As with our wonderful* points system, pretty well all countries have some sort of requirements for residential and citizen status. You can't just turn up. If you are well educated and in a profession that's in demand then there's not going to be much problem. For your average brickie, council worker, supermarket shelf stacker, etc. then it's unlikely. That fact is unlikely to change post Brexit - Canada and Australia both have higher unemployment rates than the UK, NZ,s is slightly lower, why would they let in more unqualified workers?
*Other sarcastic adjectives are available.
And, of course, we could have signed an agreement with any/all of those countries to have a reciprocal opening up of migration opportunities… while members of the EU. If we and they had wanted that.
Germany is a better place to be a worker than the UK no doubt (where isn’t?),
You should get out of the UK a bit more just to realise how good you have it here.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
FFS what is with the CANZAK fantasies.
You should get out of the UK a bit more just to realise how good you have it here.
This is very true. And a reminder that "wages" are not the only measure of how well workers are treated... you'd have to pay me A LOT more to opt into USA type employer/employee/state style arrangements. That goes for most other countries in the world as it happens. Not Germany though.
FFS what is with the CANZAK fantasies.
Commonwealth/Empire, but just the majority white countries.
But they key thing is, the barriers that both they and we put up for our workers (and, knowing people who have both failed and succeeded to have moved to/from all those countries, I've seen just how substantial those barriers are), as regards moving between countries, are the choices of our governments, not the governments of any of the other European countries.
Aside from figuring out how not to kill each the major visible and tangible achievement of European countries is a functioning and affordable public transport system. Which counter-intuitively helps the brexit argument as people here wonder why we don’t have that too, and then conclude that European nations must be unfairly benefitting from EU membership.
Keep throwing the Lexit stones
So suggesting that the EU has the same problems we do makes me a lexiteer? This is how ridiculous this whole debate has become.
No… this does…
an unnecessarily prudent fiscal policy for decades which effectively held down wages
Where is your evidence that wages have been “held down” by (successive) German governments? Or that their fiscal policies have created this situation? Just Lexitier English pub bore talk. Still, come the ever approaching English revolution, we’ll show them Germans how it’s done.
Kelvin do a google search for Germany and Austerity. Germany is not the social democratic utopia that many pretend it is. As an example..
This increased competitiveness lies partly in structural competitive advantages such as a large share of manufacturing, advanced technologies, and a skilled labour force. But it also has its roots in a set of neo-liberal reforms undertaken since 2002, the so-called Agenda 2010. This was a neo-liberal reaction to the poor performance of the German economy after re-unification. At its core were labour reforms (‘Hartz IV laws’) introduced by the coalition government of the Social Democrats and the Green Party under Chancellor Gerhard Schröder.
These reforms consisted of sharp cuts in unemployment benefits, making labour more flexible by weakening the trade unions, applying heavy bureaucratic pressure on the jobless, reducing social security, such as pensions, and raising the age of retirement from 65 to 67. Real wages fell on average by 1.6 per cent a year from 2002 to 2012, falling fastest once the reforms were introduced, with the years between 2002 and 2007 seeing a drop of 3.9 per cent.8 Only since 2010 has there been an increase in real wages of 2.85 per cent which continued until 2012. The gender gap in wages remained more or less the same throughout the decade at 19.4 per cent in 2010.
Stop providing facts - they make Brexiteers deaf.
Those reforms still leave Germany with much better worker protections and much higher benefits than we have
Those reforms still leave Germany with much better worker protections and much higher benefits than we have
True, but my general point was that European countries are affected to a greater or lesser extent by the same issues we have here, and this fawning view of the EU as some perfect utopia is a bit silly as it's not much different to what we have (public transport aside). It's neither a pro or anti-EU argument I'm making, but an appeal for less hysteria of the likes we saw earlier which claim EU goverments are wonderfully charitable, benevolent institutions trying to make life better for everyone. We are not the only country with a shit government, self-interested politicians and corrupt civil servants.
Just seen this on the Washington Post
Opinion by Dominic Raab
Dec. 26, 2020 at 11:00 a.m. GMTDominic Raab is Britain’s foreign secretary.
The United Kingdom and the European Union have reached a historic new deal, establishing a relationship based on free trade and friendly cooperation between sovereign equals. This is good news for Britain, our E.U. partners and the United States, including for U.S. businesses in the U.K. such as 3M, GE and Hewlett-Packard. The deal provides stability and continuity, and it reaffirms that the U.K. is one of the best places in the world to do business.
This zero-tariff, zero-quota deal is not just good for international business. Above all, it respects the democratic mandate from the 2016 referendum by ensuring the U.K. takes back control of our laws, money, immigration policy, fisheries and right to forge trade deals around the world, as any independent, self-respecting democracy would expect to.
It is good for the whole United Kingdom too. With the E.U.-U.K. Joint Committee agreement reached this month, the deal makes sure that Northern Ireland’s place within the E.U. and its economic future are protected in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement. We have been clear from Day 1 that there would be no hard border in any circumstances, and the deal we have negotiated gives the people of Northern Ireland a greater say. We know how important that is to our U.S. friends.
Beyond the small print of the negotiated text, the deal heralds a new era for a reinvigorated Global Britain as a confident, independent nation and an energetic force for good in the world. We will champion free and fair trade by striking bilateral deals, developing our regional ties (especially among the growth markets of the future in the Indo-Pacific region, with the Trans-Pacific Partnership) and at the global level by pursuing meaningful reform in the World Trade Organization.
We also believe this truly Global Britain will play an even stronger force in tackling crises like covid-19, helping the international economic recovery stemming from the pandemic, stopping catastrophic climate change, addressing emerging security threats, standing up for our values, and holding China to its international commitments and promises. As for the United States, you will find us an even more dependable ally and friend in these joint endeavors.
Our energized ambition will be on display as we assume the presidency of the Group of Seven in 2021. But we have already started offering global solutions to a global pandemic. We are already administering the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, and the Oxford University/AstraZeneca vaccine is progressing well. We have committed over £500 million (about $668 million) to rolling out vaccines across the poorest countries in the world, and we were proud to host the Global Vaccine Summit in June, raising $8.8 billion to support the routine vaccination of hundreds of millions of children in lower-income countries.
Next we will host the U.N. global climate change conference in November 2021. The U.K. was the first major economy to introduce legislation to bring all greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050. Now we are pressing governments around the world to match that level of ambition. We hugely welcome President-elect Joe Biden’s pledge to recommit to the Paris Agreement and achieve a “carbon pollution-free power sector by 2035.” This is a game changer, and we are thoroughly looking forward to working with the United States to build momentum in the months ahead.
On security, Prime Minister Boris Johnson has announced the biggest program of investment in British defense since the end of the Cold War — an increase of more than £24 billion (approximately $32 billion) over the next four years, exceeding our NATO pledge, investing to restore Britain’s position as the foremost naval power in Europe and creating new capabilities, including a center dedicated to artificial intelligence. The threats from our adversaries are evolving. We have to be fully equipped, alongside our NATO allies, with the cutting-edge tools to respond.On human rights, we have already followed U.S. legislation by enacting Magnitsky-style sanctions — the bipartisan brainchild of Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Benjamin L. Cardin (D-Md.) — that allow us to sanction the perpetrators of the worst human rights abuses around the world. This month, we announced a new round of targeted asset freezes and visa bans on political leaders and special forces in Russia, and on military and police commanders in Venezuela. We will always look to coordinate our approach with like-minded allies to maximize our impact.
These are the values and interests that underpin Global Britain as we look forward to the next chapter in our history. We will be resolute in defending open societies, promoting global trade and standing up for those values we have always championed side-by-side with our friends in the United States.
The £24Bn increase in defence spending will barely cover the over-spend on existing commitments, never mind the promises of new kit and capabilities. The Army are struggling to recruit and in other branches they've stopped some training - there will need to be cuts. Hardly signs of getting ready for our brave, new post-Brexit world. Never mind the handful of gunboats we have to defend our territorial waters just about sums up the UK's new place in the world-order - champions of tinpot gunboat diplomacy.
So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that
I'm sure. I suppose if you overlook the additional costs of customs clearance and the 20% hit the currency has taken after we took off after this fool's errand you can make those sums add up. Throw in some antibiotic laden foodstuffs and even more cheap shit from China and you may have just saved enough money to pay for your health insurance. F me you couldn't make this up.
As for the Germans, well, I guess if you ignore the higher pay, the effective health system, the protected workers rights, the de-centralised wealth, healthy economy, the brilliant public transport, fantastic beer, and the generally law abiding citizens, you'd be right again daz - shitter of a place.
Merry Xmas everyone.
Merry Xmas everyone.
C'mon fella, at least wrap it and stick a bow on it. Happiest time of the year remember?
Protectionist eu tariffs are gone, unless I’ve missed something, the plan is to drop virtually all tariffs to zero. So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that.
I'm pretty sure that plan has been dropped as it was an unworkable idea. If you check the post Jan 1 tariffs they pretty much mirror the current as far as i have seen. They'll need to carry that on for many years in order to provide market stability. Consumer goods might even see a rise in order to plug some gaping holes in the finances.
this fawning view of the EU as some perfect utopia
A strawman, from Dazh… I’m so shocked!
a large share of manufacturing, advanced technologies, and a skilled labour force
The horror!
As a left winger, I’ve heard far too many people I politically agree with be disparaging of Germany. For some it is because they want to keep the “all capitalism is wrong” pretence up, and so can’t accept that German do socially responsible capitalism better than us, in no small part because their trade unions work long term with industry. For others, the Lexiters especially, it’s just the same English>German xenophobia they share with their right wing anti-European friends.
Just seen this on the Washington Post
Opinion by Dominic Raab
Dec. 26, 2020 at 11:00 a.m. GMTDominic Raab is Britain’s foreign secretary.
The United Kingdom and the European Union have reached a historic new deal.... blah blah blah....
a beautifuly written pile of horseshit.
the actions of the goverment are what speak, not words.
I have complete faith that they will continue true to past form, probably even more so.
Looks like this PoS agreement will be the final push I need to get round to sorting out Spanish citizenship. I'd have done it before, but the paperwork is an (expensive) PITA. But thanks to Brexit I could be unemployed, and all just so some ****s get to rub one out thinking about the White Cliffs and "Great" Britain.
So yeah, happy xmas to our Brexit voting friends, you ****s.
Dazh you're talking utter pish. We've recently been "consulted" by the company with regards them ending their existing underwritten direct benefit and direct contribution schemes. The reason they need to do this is because the bigger group is in a massive financial black hole and our part isn't much better off. Someone asked whether this policy would be the same across the wider group and the answer was basically that other countries have protections against that sort of thing. **** knows what the unions are thinking because they've communicated precisely nothing in the last few months. This race to the bottom has been going on for years but don't try to tell us that other countries aren't better off.
As for the Germans, well, I guess if you ignore the higher pay, the effective health system, the protected workers rights, the de-centralised wealth, healthy economy, the brilliant public transport, fantastic beer, and the generally law abiding citizens, you’d be right again daz – shitter of a place.
Very much this.
mogrim
Full MemberLooks like this PoS agreement will be the final push I need to get round to sorting out Spanish citizenship
Won't you have to renounce Citizenship and then apply for settled status though?
As a left winger, I’ve heard far too many people I politically agree with be disparaging of Germany.
Jeez, I dare to question the german government's policy of austerity and fiscal prudence and suddenly I'm anti-germany! This is exactly what I'm talking about. I'm actually a fairly classical lefty internationalist. The workers of the UK have far more in common with the workers of Germany and other EU countries than they do their own governments.
so can’t accept that German do socially responsible capitalism better than us
I think the greek might disagree with the concept of socially responsible German capitalism.
Won’t you have to renounce Citizenship and then apply for settled status though?
Currently would have to renounce my British citizenship, but TBH that's not exactly a huge loss. I've been a resident for over 10 years (not to mention I have a Spanish wife) so there's no problem regarding eligibility.
I have a major project starting at the end of January in an EU country. It’s taken just over a year to land this project and a significant investment in time and therefore money to do so. I still don’t know if they’ll recognise me (professionally).
Got your Schengen Visa ordered?
I think the greek…
Is this lexiter Bingo? Big bad capitalist Germany using the EU to impoverish other European countries. Especially Greece. God I’m bored with the English blaming Germans and the EU for the problems of Greece.
the English blaming Germans and the EU for the problems of Greece.
It does play to the Brexit audience, sadly, because it's a simple message, but it's way more complicated than that.
Gordon Brown's master stroke, keeping us out the Euro.
Last decent PM we had was Gordon Brown.
I think the greek might disagree with the concept of socially responsible German capitalism.
Well, quite. It's pretty clear from this thread that many remainers are just as fundamentalist as brexiters. Any criticism of the EU is tantamount to treason.
