On another note, is the UK also out of the research collaboration programme (horizon 2020 and so on?)
Re erasmus, we've had students come & go (cancer research lab) and they've always been outstanding
A real loss to UK science to be excluded
The anti-expert nature of brexit was always going to see UK science & engineering be a secondary consideration
Likewise Horizon 2020 replacement
The door is open for us to take part but we will have to pay in as associate members and can see that being a casualty of our jingoistic MPs & press, they'll need a new target to attack.
Interestingly we are staying in Euratom, which is overseen by dreaded ECJ
Likewise Horizon 2020 replacement
The door is open for us to take part but we will have to pay in as associate members and can see that being a casualty of our jingoistic MPs & press, they’ll need a new target to attack.
Interestingly we are staying in Euratom, which is overseen by dreaded ECJ
Thanks. I suspect they will continue to participate once this is sorted, it’s not just universities who participate in those projects (as you probably know), its big companies and smes. Whilst the Erasmus touches on the immigration topic, I can’t think of any barrier (other than money) that would prevent uk from rejoining this programme.
An insightful talk from Prof Dorling (Uni of Oxford)
Brexit and the End of the British Empire
Well, we can "celebrate" the deal just not being as bad as no deal and that's about it. The only trade deal in history to make trading more difficult. There is no victory in this. The loss of rights and opportunities is utterly depressing and will only be felt more as the years go on.
This is just the start anyway, the government will constantly need to be at war with someone or something. That focus will be partly diverted to our own people now.
Those on benefits (even if working), the disabled, unions, the Scottish (I'm definitely not joking here)..... Anything to unify and coalesce a hatred... Someone to blame for the economic and social turmoil to come.
We are diminished and will live to see the end of the United Kingdom.
...more importantly, how will this Brexit deal affect the prices for an EU citizens wanting to satisfy his Nitto fetish via Planet X? 🤭 I've had some trouble understanding this. All they speak of is fish.
can’t think of any barrier (other than money) that would prevent uk from rejoining this programme
Brexit & the brexiteers has proved that there's not really any logical proposition that can't be rejected on the basis of jingoism & exceptionalism
, how will this Brexit deal affect the prices for an EU citizens wanting to satisfy his Nitto fetish via Planet X?
Roughly 5% more for parts, 15% probably if you're buying a whole bike, and you'll likely have to do the work of paying vat/duty yourself.
All they speak of is fish.
Fish will be the UK currency. Currently 1 fish buys a euro.
I actually grew up in a Spanish town that was the target of a lot of Erasmus students
I find the use of the word 'target' interesting.
Is there an unconscious bias against 'outsiders' in the thinking here?
Whatever, Johnson's deal is a damaging crock of shit that just about stops this country imploding by the end of January.
Basically, what is going to happen next is a slow, piece by piece rejoining of the EU with two certainties.
Firstly, the end point is nowhere near as good a 'deal' as we had before.
Secondly, it will be as slow as possible to keep the gammony loons from actually starting a civil war.
Context is everything, though. So how long we continue to unnecessarily **** ourselves over is very much open for debate.
What a total ****ing stupid waste of time and energy.
Bollocks to Brexit.
The anti-expert nature of brexit
Leavers don't like intellect.
Roughly 5% more for parts, 15% probably if you’re buying a whole bike, and you’ll likely have to do the work of paying vat/duty yourself.
I might be able to live with this. Still better than paying thrice the price + shipping and taxes from Rivendell.
Fish will be the UK currency. Currently 1 fish buys a euro.
I will pay in Swedish fish and we can have our own trade deal.
I actually grew up in a Spanish town that was the target of a lot of Erasmus students
I did Erasmus. 3 months in Bilbao as part of my Fine Art degree. Best days of my life and indirectly transformed my life.
Fine Art degree
Three words guaranteed to inflame a rabid Brexiteer!
The BBC is currently doing a summary of key points in the agreement as they go through it.
Interesting reading but don't expect much good news. Services seems to have just been "forgotten" about for instance.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55252388
Am happy (ish) being in UK export manufacturing - no deal would have killed us dead. Still worse than we were.
Without Erasmus I would have never met mrs asbrooks.
Long before that I spent a year in Florence with a previous girlfriend who was studying modern languages and art history. I learnt enough Italian to find myself a job. It opened my eyes to the all sorts of possibilities. It's a sad that our kids will not be able to do the same.
From another BBC article.
On electric cars, an annexe reveals a late compromise.
The EU had sought to offer tariff-free access only to those British cars that are made mostly with European parts. That will now be phased in over six years, but is less generous than the UK ask.
This should be just about enough for Japanese owners of massive UK plants Nissan and Toyota's current production, but raises questions about future rounds of investment.
Looks like you are ok if you work in a car plant... for a few years at least. Nissan etc must be weighing up where they invest in the future. I wouldn't place any money on them still being here in another decade?
Interesting reading but don’t expect much good news. Services seems to have just been “forgotten” about for instance.
German media been raising this point, from the EUs end looks like a big win
Tariff free deal on goods where EU have £93bn surplus, but nothing for services where we have a £23bn surplus
Serious dejavu with the withdrawal agreement
The telegraph & Brexit press stuffed with articles selling Johnson's win
6months from now they'll be wailing that the EU didnt negotiate in good faith, and we'd very much like to renege on the deal we've just signed.....
One of the key problems with the USA is that most* of the people there don't travel and they don't have any understanding of the outside world, even if they follow the news. It's just something they don't really 'get'. The way to fix this is to get people travelling. But of course two weeks on holiday isn't enough, you need to spent time somewhere to understand it, and for most of us we can't afford to immerse ourselves in a culture without working. So we studied and worked in other countries. It's am amazing thing to do. But we've been basically stopped from doing it by people who never did it and never understood why we need to. So yeah Erasmus is useless to people like this.
* not all, obviously
Secondly, it will be as slow as possible to keep the gammony loons from actually starting a civil war.
It’ll be slow, partly because there is a mountain to climb…
I am now remarkably glad that Migrationsverket has sent me a piece of paper that tells people I can’t be deported until a decision has been made about my status. I hope that I get residency and that, come April, I can apply for and get citizenship here.
Frankly, the shitshow I keep seeing in the U.K. keeps reminding me I made the right choice coming here.
Well, we can “celebrate” the deal just not being as bad as no deal and that’s about it. The only trade deal in history to make trading more difficult. There is no victory in this. The loss of rights and opportunities is utterly depressing and will only be felt more as the years go on.
Oh I dunno. Brexit gives me hope.
Hope that other countries (mainly small/medium ones) will learn from our mistake. If even just one other country changes it’s course from delusional arrogant hubristic exceptionalism and learns to treat neighbours as friends and not foes. I’ll take that as a positive.
Hope that other countries (mainly small/medium ones) will learn from our mistake. If even just one other country changes it’s course from delusional arrogant hubristic exceptionalism and learns to treat neighbours as friends and not foes. I’ll take that as a positive.
+1
From another BBC article.
On electric cars, an annexe reveals a late compromise.
The EU had sought to offer tariff-free access only to those British cars that are made mostly with European parts. That will now be phased in over six years, but is less generous than the UK ask.
This should be just about enough for Japanese owners of massive UK plants Nissan and Toyota’s current production, but raises questions about future rounds of investment.
Looks like you are ok if you work in a car plant… for a few years at least. Nissan etc must be weighing up where they invest in the future. I wouldn’t place any money on them still being here in another decade?
But according to several of the most prolific doom-mongers on here UK car plants are already dead in the water with or without a deal? Does this news mean all those 'idiots' who voted leave in Sunderland actually called it right and have got exactly what they wanted?
Leavers don’t like intellect.
Is it any wonder with attitudes like your yours? I'm sure it gives you great comfort to think of yourself as intellectually superior to how you picture the typical leave voter. Perhaps your new year's resolution should be to get over yourself.
But according to several of the most prolific doom-mongers on here UK car plants are already dead in the water with or without a deal? Does this news mean all those ‘idiots’ who voted leave in Sunderland actually called it right and have got exactly what they wanted?
Based solely on what you quoted, I'd say no.
Does this news mean all those ‘idiots’ who voted leave in Sunderland actually called it right and have got exactly what they wanted?
No, clearly not from what you quoted without apparently reading/understanding it properly.
It means that they have a temporary reprieve, that might be extended if we concede some more in a couple of years time, if Nissan can be bothered to keep investing in such an uncertain future. Which seems a crazy way to run a business/economy.
But according to several of the most prolific doom-mongers on here UK car plants are already dead in the water with or without a deal? Does this news mean all those ‘idiots’ who voted leave in Sunderland actually called it right and have got exactly what they wanted?
Tariffs had to be avoided, JLR reckoned that they would add £1bn a year to the cost of manufacturing here
But they reckoned non tariff barriers would add £1.5bn, Rules of Origin- which is what this is, is a type of NTB, so a reduction on tariffs for EVs is welcome & should encourage UK manufacturers to switch to EV production - which was no doubt the EUs intention.
Tho as pointed out its not as much as we wanted and decreases over 6 years to 0
But the Quasqu is hybrid, rather than EV, is that covered?
And regardless the UKs new customs requires more red tape & paperwork
Brexit has made car production, especially for sale to the EU (where most of Nissans cars go) more expensive, that's a direct result of how leavers in Sunderland voted
But it means that the car manufacturers will be demanding government subsidies to stay here, hence why there was so much fuss over state aid & level playing field
From the guardian:
Professional qualifications
There will be no more automatic recognition for doctors, nurses, architects, dentists, pharmacists, vets, engineers. They will now have to seek recognition in the member state they wish to practise in.
That doesn't appear to be correct, paras 50, 51 & 52 of the precis linked to earlier in the thread suggest that recognition of professional qualifications continues. But no details obviously, that would be too easy.
I have a major project starting at the end of January in an EU country. It's taken just over a year to land this project and a significant investment in time and therefore money to do so. I still don't know if they'll recognise me (professionally).
Leavers don’t like intellect.
I think to be honest that quote is a little unfair.
It was experts, and presumably therefore expertise, that they don’t like. And I suppose there is a good deal of evidence that the better educated you were the more likely you were to vote remain, particularly if you corrected for affluence (eg rich uneducated was very much more likely to be Brexy than poor well educated). Now age would be a factor too (old folk are generally better off than young folk) but I think that correction had little effect.
This is all from memory of course and my memory sometimes puts a spin on things.
So no leavers don’t necessarily dislike intellect, but are probably less educated than average for their affluence and dislike expertise - which isn’t a million miles away.
Moving on, there’s something strangely dystopian and “Sovereign Individual” about this deal when read in context of immigration policies that prevent social mobility and allow big business to buy in the high skill people they need preventing the common man from getting the best price for their talents and hard work, but still allows business to sell wherever to get the best price relative to cost for their goods.
Can’t quite put my finger on it, but it feels like you couldn’t design a better outcome than free trade but no free movement of labour if you were pro-elite (cash elite, not intellectual elite).
I’m sure it gives you great comfort to think of yourself as intellectually superior to how you picture the typical leave voter.
By a man's actions....
Anyway, now shit got real there won't be any need for long snarky posts. Just a link to the relevant news story of yet another Brexit-driven fail with the words 'told you so'.
But I doubt it will get very far down that road. Your man Johnson will break the agreement in spirit at least - the first time he is remotely pushed on it by one of the ERG nutjobs.
I'll bet Johnson's minders are currently being tasked with making sure that under no circumstances does De Pfeffel find himself in the same room as a ERG nutjob.
An honest man doesn't have to remember anything. Alexander Boris De Pfeffel Johnson (man of the people) has a lot to remember.
To paraphrase one of Johnson's heroes:
Never has so much been given up by so many for so little.
Leavers don’t like intellect.
In my experience it isn't so much this but that they give equal or greater weight to opinion as they do to knowledge. As others have said, and is well documented now, the average leave voter has or had less formal education so their access to knowledge is reduced, the learned ability to interpret and differentiate facts from fiction is lower and resulting willingness to change their mind based on external evidence vanishes. Hence people presenting facts can be dismissed if they don't agree with what you think, and people peddling lies that are pallatable gain traction.
The entirety of the leave vote follows from recognising and capitalising on this. Gove's comment on experts is explicit recognition of this. There is a reason why the Conservatives aren't traditionally in favour of high levels of universal education.
The entirety of the leave vote follows from recognising and capitalising on this. Gove’s comment on experts is explicit recognition of this. There is a reason why the Conservatives aren’t traditionally in favour of high levels of universal education.
Add into the mix the ability to use social media to tell different lies to different groups through targeted messaging and you have a particularly toxic mix.
A dumbed down population plus cynical use of social media is a gift to populist crooks.
I’m sure it gives you great comfort to think of yourself as intellectually superior to how you picture the typical leave voter.
It's not that. I WISH there was a good specific argument in favour of Brexit. I'd love to be able to believe in my government and what my country does, like I used to, even a bit.
But almost all the Brexit arguments are emotional and sentimental, which is frankly bollocks; and those that aren't (e.g. the coming socialist utopia which I'd heartily welcome) are wildly unrealistic.
Convince me, please. Beyond empty assertions that 'it'll be okay' or 'we'll be able to trade more' because this educated middle class person needs more meat on that bone.
Convince me, please. Beyond empty assertions that ‘it’ll be okay’ or ‘we’ll be able to trade more’ because this educated middle class person needs more meat on that bone.
And there's the rub. Looked at objectively, it is impossible to explain Brexit without using words that are synonyms for or slightly dumbed down versions of 'stupid'. Charitable attempts would include 'naive', 'easily persuaded' or 'gullible' - but they are all said with a knowing look in the eye.
How on earth else can you encapsulate millions of people being duped into voting against their own interests?
In any case, Brexies supposedly love straight-speaking, so why it should have to be dressed up in 'nicer' words is beyond me.
e.g. the coming socialist utopia which I’d heartily welcome)
We’re currently in the middle of a socialist utopia. It’s shit. The aftermath is going to be brutal.
Convince me, please. Beyond empty assertions that ‘it’ll be okay’ or ‘we’ll be able to trade more’ because this educated middle class person needs more meat on that bone.
I doubt anything will convince you short term. Give it a few years.
Protectionist eu tariffs are gone, unless I’ve missed something, the plan is to drop virtually all tariffs to zero. So cheaper food, cheaper bikes, cheaper everything from around the world. I’m looking forward to that.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
Oh blimey, bozzer's gone done a mega deal💩
Fingers crossed for a vimto, somebody save us...
We’re currently in the middle of a socialist utopia. It’s shit
Errrmmm - where do you live? the nearest thing to a "socialist utopia" is probably the Netherlands.
cheaper stuff made with lower regs means no selling to the EU
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
You're joking, right? 🙂
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
????? You could until just now freely live and work in and between 27 other countries. Many of which are very cyclist-friendly and 5 of them are among the top 7 countries currently ranked by the World ‘happiness index’. A wide topography spanning from the wild of the Arctic Circle to warm seas, deserts beaches and islands of Southern Europe. The almost countless old and new cities and towns of Europe offer an embarrassment of riches if we are talking about history, architecture, centres of learning, science, culture, arts, emergent sustainable tech and planning.
You could also (until just now) freely live there and still easily visit family in the UK by catching a train, ferry or short flight. Guaranteed. Trade that with a ‘possibility’ of ‘free movement’ to just three countries on the other side of the world? No thanks.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
Hmm doubt the fares are as cheap as a Dover Calais foot passenger thou.
Might like NZ or Canada maybe - but Canada would have me anyway (I checked)
Australia? No chance. I know a few Aussies and you should hear them on why they left. Wouldn’t suit me.
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
Despite having visited Canada a number of times over the last few years there’s no way I’d regard the possibility of free move to Canada, Australia and New Zealand as better than free movement around Europe. Oh yes let’s do a weekend city break to Auckland.
Please feel free to show your working out for “There are not many people”.
The UK scores very well in that 2020 world happiness report, not quite the picture painted on these threads.
As you were👍
Medium term, free movement between Australia, New Zealand and Canada is a distinct possibility. There are not many people that wouldn’t prefer that over free movement with Europe.
I suspect all the keenness will be on the UK side.
