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If you want to get mad, get mad with Reese-Mogg and his mates. You won’t of course because it is too easy to believe the BS they feed you.
Ahh here we go , Everybody that voted leave is stupid and didn’t know what they were voting for. And you wonder why there is division..
andy - so what did you vote for and why?
andy – so what did you vote for and why?
I voted remain in 2016, was very pro EU for many years and still am, as an economic block it works. What changed my mind is the conduct of many MP’s over the past few years which is nothing short of disgusting. Love him of probably hate him Boris is only trying to honour the referendum result but it up against a wall and trying to fight in any way he can. I truly believe that the leave vote has firmed up and increased so a second referendum would only work if they opened up voting rights to groups that were previously not eligible.
I truly believe that the leave vote has firmed up and increased so a second referendum would only work if they opened up voting rights to groups that were previously not eligible.
Does anyone know what the polls/research show on this?
The polls show clearly a significant majority for remain and Johnson is not trying to honour the referendum result - he is trying to get power for himself.
the referendum result was not for a no deal brexit but very marginally to leave and all the leavers said things like "we will remain in the SM" etc.
Andypaul over 500 MPs (~80%) have voted FOR one kind of brexit or another since the ref
But not that same version, not defining what type of brexit we'd get helped vote leave win
But it made this situation inevitable
Tories manifesto promised to leave with a deal (Mays), Labour said brexit had to meet 6 tests (basically norway/swiss)
These to parties were elected by the voters
Blaming MPs for doing exactly what we voted them to do is childish
'It’s almost all about immigration with them…' I hope they realise that Brexit has already caused a decline in European immigration and an increase in non-European immigration: the system likes to keep a surplus pool of labour to keep wages down etc. Plus we're seeing an increase in migration from Calais, the French don't want them there.
Joe Johnson: a rare example of an MP resigning to spend less time with his family. After Boris's comments about Jo Cox, who could blame him?
The hairdresser round the corner was banging on about Corbyn yesterday. I asked which policies he didn't like?'None of them!' (ie he didn't know of any). He seemed to be able to say more about his dress sense and accompanied by a sort of impotent eye-popping rage, very strange. I did ask whether he got his information from Beaverbrook personally or in print? 'Beaverbrook?'
Boris is only trying to honour the referendum result
Honouring the referendum result is way down the list of Boris' priorities
The polls show clearly a significant majority for remain
The problem is now they have to find a party to vote for...you would be a very brave man to vote Lib Dem, and Labours policies are all over the shop, as is the party. I guess that leaves the Green party?
I truly believe that the leave vote has firmed up and increased so a second referendum would only work if they opened up voting rights to groups that were previously not eligible.
Actually quite a lot of leave voters have died since 2016. And the younger voters coming of age every year are overwhelmingly likely to be remainers. The headline numbers are that 'mean number of Remain supporters grows by 235,000 each year, while number of Leave backers falls by 260,000'
On that basis, even if no-one has changed their mind since 2016, Remain would have a small majority. That's demographics for you regardless of whether you 'truly believe' something else.
If leavers are confident there's a majority for the deal or no deal they want, put it to a public vote. If Leave is as confident as it says, why not do that? Why not take a mandate from today's electorate, rather than one that's three years old and vote on reality rather than a loose collection of half-truths?
Other obvious points: 52% v 48% was never the overwhelming, winner takes all victory that the likes of Farage and Johnson paint it. If around 600,000 people from a population of 70,000,000 odd had voted the other way, there would have been no majority either way. Arguably the closeness of the result suggests that a Norway-style relationship with the EU would be more appropriate to the result.
Guess what, the reason May's deal didn't pass through Parliament wasn't down to remoaners, it was because hard right Brexiteers in the ERG refused to support it. Nothing will ever satisfy the ERG, nothing.
Finally, Brexit was never a national issue until the Tories made it one. It was an internal Conservative Party conflict that Cameron hoped to end with a referendum he never thought he'd have to hold because he didn't believe he'd win an outright majority in 2015. Opinion polls from back then show that for the majority of people, it was way down the list of important issues behind stuff like the NHS, education and low and order.
Boris Johnson? A narcissist cynically riding a fabricated unicorn as hard as he can in the hope that he'll end up with a statue.
52% v 48% was never the overwhelming, winner takes all victory that the likes of Farage and Johnson paint it.
Funnily enough, Farage suggested in the run-up to the Ref that a narrow Remain win should trigger another vote. This changed when Leave sneaked in.
On that basis, even if no-one has changed their mind since 2016, Remain would have a small majority. That’s demographics for you regardless of whether you ‘truly believe’ something else.
January 19 this year was estimated by some to be the date on which a combination of enfranchisement of younger voters and natural wastage of old gammons would deliver a majority for Remain.
I guess one of the moves next week in parliament is to move so that EU nationals and maybe even 16/17 yr olds get a vote in the next referendum
EU nationals get a vote in everything bar westminster elections and 16/17 yr olds get a vote in scotland where Holyrood has the power to let them
combination of enfranchisement of younger voters and natural wastage of old gammons would deliver a majority for Remain.
What lovely non-divisive language you use!
So you are saying the remain vote has to rely on people dying to win? nice!
Pretty much right
Brexit is politically an outlier as people in general are not changing their opinions
Because the Brexit vote split along age demographics, it probably no longer is the 'will of the people'
Brian curtice has some good info on his blog about it
This should really be in the EU thread
I thought this one was all about the number of time Johnson has been caught out lying
Love him of probably hate him Boris is only trying to honour the referendum result
You can't be that naive. You do know he initially voted against May's Brexit deal (twice)? It's difficult to conclude at this point that he really wants anything but a no deal Brexit (which would weaken the Pound and the UK economy and maximise the financial gains for some of his 'supporters' who have likely staked fortunes on shorting).
His red line on the Withdrawal Agreement of having no backstop but without having a workable alternative means a deal simply isn't possible. If he had actually proposed a reasonable alternative I might be prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that his primary goal isn't a no deal Brexit, but he hasn't.
I guess one of the moves next week in parliament is to move so that EU nationals and maybe even 16/17 yr olds get a vote in the next referendum
Sadly, too obvious a 'gerrymander', although I agree with it wholeheartedly, well the younger voting one, anyway.
I think enfranchising EU nationals is a step too far, much as I would like a decisive vote for Remain.
What lovely non-divisive language you use!
So you are saying the remain vote has to rely on people dying to win? nice!
No, just that public opinion naturally shifts over time via demographic change, and the ability of the old to **** up the future of the young may thankfully be curtailed by this. It can work in reverse too - the 'maturing' of the baby boomer generation and their attitudes led to an electoral advantage for the Conservatives in the 1980s and early 1990s.
People die, other people reach voting age. Sometimes it works to your advantage, sometimes it doesn't. We can all join hands now and sing 'Circle of Life', if that makes it seem less divisive.
Anyhow, demographic change is just one factor which may help Remain, the other, hopefully more significant one, is the dawning among those who didn't bother to vote last time that they could have prevented this entire cluster ****.
Just seen clip on news some mp confronting Cummings on station platform about the language used recently by the ‘boss’ felt properly chilled by it.
WTaF is he ? Just wanted to punch his stupid grin off his sneering face it gets worse by the minute ...
He's running the prime minister.
Free of consequence.
some mp confronting Cummings
Karl Turner. I'm amazed he didn't lamp "Short" Cummings during that exchange.
Serious question, these death threads, are both sides making them to both sides or are the threats rather one sided?
one sided despite what Johnson and Cummings try to claim.
Isn't that in itself, rather telling?
you would think so
So you are saying the remain vote has to rely on people dying to win?
Unfortunately so.
Comfortable Baby Boomers are more likely to vote conservatively and act in their own self-interest. Hence why many of that generation, who picked up property for peanuts and as a consequence have been able to squirrel away a decent nest egg, are so scared of the bogeyman of 'foreigners coming to get their money', as presented by the gutter press, voted leave.
A generation of selfish and inwards looking people, who benefited from the post-war boom, the introduction of the NHS and a host of other things that have benefited their bank accounts, now wanting to pull up the drawbridge, lest someone else wish for even just a small slice of the advantages they were given.
Everybody that voted leave is stupid and didn’t know what they were voting for.
No-one who voted leave could possibly have known what they were voting for beyond the hand-wavy notion of"leaving" as it hadn't been defined back then. They might have known what they thought they were voting for, but that's an entirely different thing.
What changed my mind is the conduct of many MP’s over the past few years which is nothing short of disgusting.
Hang on, that doesn't make sense. Because you don't like the conduct of our own MPs, you want to remove any EU27 influence and hand absolute power to them? Is that not instead actually a compelling reason to want to remain?
A generation of selfish and inwards looking people, who benefited from the post-war boom
My Grandfather had an outside toilet until the mid 60’s..so much for the post war boom.
Are you saying those people didnt work for their money, if you are correct on what you are saying the older generation would have no reason to vote leave. Immigration has contributed to the house price they enjoy but is also a factor for their kids still being at home at 36 years of age. And remember we have been and are still in the EU, so by your own rules there shouldnt be a problem, so why did so many vote leave? The feeing was already there, all Farage and the like did was light the spark.
I work just as hard as those people and earn the same. However, due to joining the company at different times due to different ages, I paid a great proportion of my salary to buy an equivalent house and my pension is worth a fraction of theirs due to being dc rather than db.
It's nothing to do with working hard and everything to do with timing.
I also believe the rise in house prices has more to do with those pension funds than it does with a hand full of immigrants wants a roof over their heads.
Nothing I've seen from Boris (back on topic) and our parliament makes me think giving them "control" is a better idea than being in the EU. To say so is totally counter-intuitive.
And I agree about some of the older generation thinking they are protecting their own interests ahead of their children and, more disgustingly, their grandchildren. Supposed to be having a meal with my rabid Brexit voting mother this weekend, hoping we can avoid the issue. My dad at least appears to be now regretting his original choice.
And I agree about some of the older generation thinking they are protecting their own interests ahead of their children and, more disgustingly, their grandchildren.
Ok, can somebody explain to me why if the older generation has done so very well under EU membership, enjoying high house prices , good pensions and an altogether higher standard of living, why a majority of them voted to leave the EU?
Ok, can somebody explain to me why if the older generation has done so very well under EU membership, enjoying high house prices , good pensions and an altogether higher standard of living, why a majority of them voted to leave the EU?
This explains some:
Everybody that voted leave is stupid and didn’t know what they were voting for.
Although obviously not everyone and I'd say ignorant is a far better word than stupid. Lots of things the EU have been blamed for are domestic issues and there are lots of things that have been claimed we can't do unless we leave the EU but actually we could do if we wanted
Wrong thread … but older Leave voters I know tell me that they expect to worse off because of Brexit, but want it to happen for the benefit of their kids and grandkids. When challenged that they aren’t exactly being thanked by their family for that decision, it all gets a bit messy and a change of conversational topic becomes a wise move…
Ok, can somebody explain to me why if the older generation has done so very well under EU membership, enjoying high house prices , good pensions and an altogether higher standard of living, why a majority of them voted to leave the EU?
I think it is because of immigration. These people aren't stupid in most cases, but they see the increasingly out of control overpopulation of the world pushing migrants to the UK, which from their own personal position puts their wealth and comfort at risk.
So it's a type of racism I suppose. This generation grew up in a period of open racism too, so to revert is easier. Stoking these sentiments was an easy win for the Leave campaign.
This isn't how I feel. But to me it seems the best way of explaining why my parents and inlaws, who have otherwise been decent people, are now hardcore brexiteers willing to throw their grandchildren's future into such uncertainty. And I despair at that.
Ok, can somebody explain to me why if the older generation has done so very well under EU membership, enjoying high house prices , good pensions and an altogether higher standard of living, why a majority of them voted to leave the EU?
Forget that: can anyone explain to me how a chap at work can be certain we should leave with no deal ASAP (“just get on with it”) and then in the next breath and with a straight face say he hopes it won’t affect his plan to retire to Portugal ASAP. And expect me to respect his opinion.
can anyone explain to me how a chap at work can be certain we should leave with no deal ASAP (“just get on with it”)
Simple, he's an ignoramus.
I've said this several times before. Three years ago I'd have considered this a reasonable question, few people really understood the complexities of our symbiotic relationship with the EU back then. But anyone saying "I don't understand why we can't just leave" today is either dishonest or daft.
Ask him " no deal ever"?
What if it's a really amazing deal that will make Britain great again?
For anyone to travel to the mainland an agreement will have to be made. For anyone to sell something to the mainland we will need an agreement.
Is he suggesting no contact whatsoever with the mainland?
Boris's handler sharing his views on the news...
Clearly meaning any news he wasn't responsible for of course 🙂
Is he suggesting no contact whatsoever with the mainland?
Probably. But then he is most likely a cretin.
Yougov have
Tories 27
Lab 22
Lib Dems 22
BXP Ltd 17
Looks like Johnson tactic of stiring up hate is working
Tories due to climb more soon.
If they manage to crash us out before November, Johnson snaps up the Brexit/UKIP/burnitall vote.
If the opposition parties successfully stop the crash out, Johnson snaps up the Brexit/UKIP/stopthesurrender vote.
It’s an uphill challenge to stop Johnson now… ironically the best chance to defeat him is if he sorts a deal, which is his professed policy.
It’s an uphill challenge to stop Johnson now… ironically the best chance to defeat him is if he sorts a deal, which is his professed policy.
I think we’re far enough down the road now to know that what Poundshop Trump professes and the truth are very different things.
It’s an uphill challenge to stop Johnson now… ironically the best chance to defeat him is if he sorts a deal, which is his professed policy.
Or for Labour to swallow their pride and move a bit further towards to the center and convince remainers they are worth voting for. Labour can steal just as many votes from the lib dems as the Tories can from the Brexit party if they were so inclined.
How much evidence do the Corbyn supporters on here need, for them to understand Labours tactics are not working? Are they so embittered about the neo-liberal order that they would rather see Boris in power than something that might vaguely resemble the shadow of New Labour?
Joris Bohnson referred to police watchdog
Smear campaign. Blah,blah....
Though.... If the investigation has real teeth, who knows?
I suspect he has just about stayed in a grey area just about enough to keep it "legal" but still wrong obvs. Basically just like Trump manages to do.
Cummings has started with Boris Vs parliament narrative and it's working
Sadly I think it'll win him the next election, Brexit or not
The hedge funds backing him will make a killing, the country will be poisoned for a generation but yeah Boris !
Cummings has started with Boris Vs parliament/judges/police/civil-servants narrative and it’s working
He managed to make everyone who works in schools, or education more generally, the enemy, back in the day (the blob). To get this one over the line, everyone will be under attack. And yet, the claim will be that it’s all to unify and heal the country. And people will go along with it. Oh, but don’t say anything disparaging about those that do.
I'm rather pessimistic about it all
Can't see how the country moves on from this
Especially with another decade of this to look forward to as we repeat the last 3 years trying to get the future relationship sorted.
Still johnson gets what he craves
The Boris sleaze allegations also catch Johnny Mercer for £85k/year for 20hrs/week work.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-47884273
If you look on Companies House there is a flurry of director changes associated with this.
20hrs/mth not week. 4hrs/wk. 🙂
The article is from April.
He was on HaveIGotNewsForYou earlier this year & they were hassling him for something, probably that.
I agree with kimbers, however this ends, I have no idea how you heal the tremendous damage it's done
Still johnson gets what he craves
Because there's no Opposition.
Momentum are just as culpable as Bojo, by hogtying the Labour party to that old fool, who hasn't the wit to see he is a puppet.
There needs to be a big shakeup in the political system, but it's hard to see how it can be done.
Can there not be a 'Reasonable Party'? One of sense and considered action?
More Johnson sleeze ...
How rich do these ****ers need to be?
How rich do these **** need to be?
£££££££££££££££££££ +1 ?
So did Boris shag this woman?... who's involved in the cash scandal where public finance was used to bring her along.. that's what's being alluded to right?!
this was while he was with his new girlfriend Carrie Simmons? or his wife? either way he's been caught cheating on his partner again, he's a genuine scumbag, morally bankrupt and devoid of the proper attitudes and actions as to how to conduct oneself, in public and in private.
It seems like he might have.
Interestingly, no one is really bothered by that.
2 reasons, he shags everything so no-one is surprised. Secondly, the real dirt is in all the financial going on rather than the habitual infidelity...
How much evidence do the Corbyn supporters on here need, for them to understand Labours tactics are not working?
We know they aren't working. The issue for everyone is what would work. Everyone wants Corbyn to do what the want, but it's not always the same.
Boris isn't even taking any of this seriously, he's just a more eloquent Trump telling the largest group what they want to hear regardless. Not much you can do against that is there?
or anyone to travel to the mainland an agreement will have to be made. For anyone to sell something to the mainland we will need an agreement.
This. For our company this removes an expanding, lucrative market, or at best makes it more difficult.
But the pedant in me wants to point out Europe is not the mainland...
So I’ve just seen reports that No10 has announced that it is investigating intelligence claims of remainers colluding with foreign powers.
Lol.
This is going to get mental.
Yeah , the mail and express are really going for blood aren't they?
Also announcing that Boris would win an election even if he were in jail. Now I'm guessing the law would prevent that BUT if it were allowed... He would be a martyr and I think he would win. Just how did we get here guys?
Another paper saying that Arcuri told friends that she and him were having an affair.
That will just get drowned out in the noise though.
The next few weeks/ months leading to Brexit/ GE are going to get really nasty. I can see this going beyond words.😟
Oh yeah and he's building 40 hospitals.... Like that will happen and even if it did... Where are the staff and supporting services?
It's a ******* nightmare happening in front of us.
“Beyond words” puts it perfectly.
And, importantly, this isn’t just “an event” after which things will calm down… it is just the start.
Can we just take a moment to savour Angela Rayner summing up a lot of people’s feelings towards Mr Johnson with one look of utter and complete contempt
https://twitter.com/angelarayner/status/1178421365864615936?s=21
remainers colluding with foreign powers.
No way, I mean I'm shocked.
A list of 27 other countries springs immediately to mind.
Do we need a new thread for Tory Sleaze the topic that keeps on giving?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/30/revealed-owen-paterson-lobbied-for-firms-he-was-paid-to-advise
look of utter and complete contempt
that photo looks like a cheeky giggle to me
Not just the look of contempt but the posture says far more to me, arms crossed across chest and feet pointing inward signifies an unconscious response to a threat
Yeah, probably, but point is a photo of a facial expression means sod all. All a bit too tabloid (Ooh, look at the Queen asleep! er no she blinked.)
Anyway, he's definitely scum, so not really worth discussing. Sorry.
Check out the video.
I can't find the clip they showed on the news last night. It was pure comedy gold. Johnson is on Marr with her. As he walks past her he tries to engage her in conversation.
The stance says it all. She just completely blanks him.
You'd think with all his money he'd have clothes that fit. I unintentionally observed one of the conference attendees (blue suit and tie, big belly, pointy shoes, phone at the ready, St Peter's Sq is full of them) hoover up two cooked breakfasts this morning. My oath, the horror of it! I worry it might become a permanent visceral affliction, more Pavlovian than pavlova.
BillMC
Member
You’d think with all his money he’d have clothes that fit
Part of the image, isn't it.
He looks to me to have been abandoned to the boarding school system before he'd learned to dress himself. His philandering and groping and overindulging and desire to be king of the world just reflect his narcissistic neediness.
The hair is also part of the image.
Is it just me or does it look like he’s thinning?
They might previously had Oyster cards and poor service.
You could use Oyster cards before he was mayor, but you couldn’t pay by contactless bank card. I used to have an Oyster card just for hassle free bus use when I visited London. Don’t expect Johnson to be across the details on this (or anything else). He’s just a bluffer and a playboy.
Do you remember the boom in sales of wallets that stopped contactless payments? That was because Londoners were used to flashing their wallets, with Oyster Cards in them, when jumping on buses (after doing it for years) … but then the change to allow card payments as well meant people getting charged by mistake on their bank cards. When was that? Was while he was major IIRC. Just before the Olympics? In fact, wasn’t the deadline to introduce it set so that all the visitors expected in 2012 could easily use the buses?