[Closed] Border Terrier owners, can you help me?

Well my two Staffies have both been fine with cats, they had them around since they were puppies and didnt see them as anything to chase. Squirrels were another thing entirely.

Cats will freak out for a few days, but should come round.

Should be absolutely fine if it's a puppy. Probably best not to go for an older dog. We took in a 5 yr old Border Terrier a few weeks ago knowing that he was a cat chaser but also that our cat stands no nonsense from any dog.
We were extra careful getting them used to each but whenever we thought that he was gonna be ok he went for the cat again. He wasn't remotely deterred by the fact the cat was bigger and he was getting scratched!
Glad to report he's now happy in a new home 🙂

We got Archie form a puppy, and although we don't have cats he doesn't bother with them at all. Very mild mannered and great with the kids even though they maul him to death.

Great dogs, and as long as you get them young enough like D4declivity said , I don't think you will have any problems.

[url= http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/4333587254_7e7f406419.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4042/4333587254_7e7f406419.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/17059060@N00/4333587254/ ]P1000225[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/17059060@N00/ ]eastham_david[/url], on Flickr

Erm, most will be fine but if from working stock beware had a few and known a few fell terriers who were passionate about cats, one went at 8 weeks old and cleared 2 well established cats from the house he also ended up chasing a cat through a greenhouse both sides without stopping!

MM, we're three weeks into having a BT puppy. We also have two older cats. I haven't time to post in any detail right now but happy to email you later with our experiences (all positive btw).

Can't see you having any problems with your cats if you're having one from a pup. As has already been said, your cats will likely have a massive grump on for a few weeks.

Re them seeing cats outside the home, yep our border would chase one if he was off the lead, but I think most dogs would. He does like to chase rabbits too, but he's pretty gormless and hasn't managed to catch one yet - he's more interested in sniffing and peeing!!

I have read that if you get them from a young age then you should be fine.

Did you all get yours from specialist breeders, if so is there a vetting system? Can any of you point me in the right direction on where to start looking? I'm in Hampshire if that helps.

Apologies for the dumb questions but I haven't been around dogs since I left home and this will be the first of my own.

deadlydarcy, if you do get a spare moment to email me your thoughts I would be very grateful. Email in profile.

Great little dogs but need a firm hand in my experience. Don't take any nonsense from them and make sure they know it's not OK to chew your house up (this includes any clothes left lying about) and chase anything & everything that moves. It has to start on day one or they realise that they're the boss and you're the sucker.

I have two borders. About the best breed of dogs to have in my opinion.
They will run all day, as they were intended to run with the hounds originally.
And they will sleep all day given the chance also.

I did a bit of digging with mine some years ago. Best not say too much about that here I guess though...

But, like most terriers, they want to chase whatever is running from them .. my two showed little interest in our pet rabbits we had at that time .. well after a few weeks anyways ..
[img] [/img]

They may be a small breed. But they certainly dont see themselves as one though. They are fearless. They will not back down from any size dog.. this demonstrates both the soft and rough side to them. The elder dog just wanted to play .. the puppy sometimes had enough.
[img] [/img]

All in all. As long as you introduce them to any pets early. They will be fine. They are a great breed.
[img] http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r57/caerant/5.jp g" target="_blank">http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r57/caerant/5.jp g"/> [/img]

Got ours from Kgills

linky here,

[url] http://www.kgills.co.uk/ [/url]

Gill is great and well worth a talk to.

problem is she is in Wigan

The borders are a little too popular nowadays. Which is leading to certain types of people breeding them for the money instead of the best for the breed.
Go to a reputable breeder. I joined the Southern border terrier club. Through here I was lucky enough to get mine through a superb breeder (Rhozzum)

I will warn you again. Do not get a border from any old idiot selling them through local papers etc.
There are too many bad borders being used. This can range from tails being carried too high to mouths being badly over/undershot.
Go to a reputable breeder.

My Archie will chase anything that runs away from him as well.

We don't have cats but I'm sure if a cat had been here before him he's be fine with it. He loves chasing cats now until they turn and stand up to him he $hits himself and backs off straight away. We are surrounded by wild rabbits and he will always chase then but stops when they duck under the fence, he knows not to follow them and he'll never catch them as well.

One word of warning HAIR LOSS, if you've got wooden floors you'll be laughing otherwise buy a really good vacuum cleaner and don't bother putting it away.

[url= http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4001/4392723492_476ac577c8.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4001/4392723492_476ac577c8.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/25655510@N02/4392723492/ ]Feb 27th - Archie's Wild Goose Chase[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/25655510@N02/ ]Johnclimber[/url], on Flickr

Some shots here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25655510@N02/sets/72157614434134989/

Ours are old ladies now - 14 - but saw off a ginger tom from the garden a couple of days ago. We had them as puppies and they never gave us any trouble with our cats.

As the previous poster said, go to a reputable breeder and you should be fine.

BTW - one is damn grumpy now. Doesn't like her routine disrupted - like moving off the sofa but they have been great dogs.

Brilliant dogs had Borders for over 30 years now. They are afraid of nothing, take a little bit more trainer than most breeds as are head strong. They will learn not to harm your cat especially being a pup.

Hair loss? Nah depends on the strain all mine have been red grizzles and needed stripped they don't really cast.

Oh yes - their coats!

You will read many people claiming their coats are easy to manage. Its a lie!

Borders have a very thick dense coat. My one dog loses his by merely shaking himself. Hoovering is constant. The upside is that it takes no time to strip him.
My other borders coat is the complete opposite. Stripping him takes days. Its hand aching job! Upside is that he doesnt drop hair.

Best bet would be to talk to somebody who owns one. Ask about stripping the coat ..its almost a full-time thing with them!!

The mrs strips Archie once every fortnight or so.

He doesn't really shed at all, we must be lucky

Hi, had our BT since Aug 2010 and he gets on great with our 2 cats (cats are 7 & 2)and have lived with us since we had them as kittens. The youngest cat purposely torments our BT then jumps up out of the way until he turns his back then he pounces again, it's very entertaining to watch.They do need a lot of exercise and can be quite destructive (Digger has destroyed several lots of nice dog bedding)so I would definitely recommend a crate.

Shepdon, How long did your cats take to settle with him? Was there anything special you did to make the transition easy for them?

MM yes we left him in his crate when the cats were in the room so that the they could see him and get near to him to investigate without him jumping all over them (try this for a few days until the cats feel comfortable with him), we also have a child's gate between our living room and kitchen so that the cats can be fed in piece this has worked well and we've had no bother. I have tried posting some pictures but not 100% sure how to do it. I personally wouldn't worry to much as the cats will soon put him in his place if he gets over excited with them assuming it is a puppy your getting, hope this helps
Regards

We had a Bodrer terrier and we intorduced a kitten to the house, she took to him uinstantly...best of Friends.

She also gave birth to some pups (dad was a jack russel).... We kept one of them (others went to a home) and what a dog If i was ever to have another it would be a russel/border cross...

What a waste to mix a border with a jack russel mongrel ...

Destructive rubbish none of mine have destroyed anything other than they're toys. They like a gOod walk and will go all but are also happy with just a quick walk.

What a waste to mix a border with a jack russel mongrel

or you could argue its a waste to let the kennel club screw another working breed.

[img] ?zz=1[/img]

just get one. they are the best dogs in the world. This is Sherlock a couple of years ago

I dont see how you can blame the KC for ruining this breed??
The blame for spoiling this fantastic working breed stops at the feet of the idiots who are knocking them out for the money and those plums who spoil years of breeding to mix them with any old rubbish.

Look at the breed description from the KC. There is no scope to fancy the breed up like the lakeland etc was.

I will add also. My two are not destructive either. I guess its alot down to training as any breed.

MM, ygm

General Appearance
Essentially a working terrier.

Characteristics
Capable of following a horse, combining activity with gameness.

Temperament
Active and game as previously stated.

Head and Skull
Head like that of an otter moderately broad in skull, with short strong muzzle. Black nose preferable, liver- or flesh-coloured one not a serious fault.

Eyes
Dark with a keen expression.

Ears
Small, V-shaped; of moderate thickness, and dropping forward close to the cheek.

Mouth
Scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws. Level bite acceptable. Undershot or overshot a major fault and highly undesirable.

Neck
Of moderate length.

Forequarters
Forelegs straight, not too heavy in bone.

Body
Deep, narrow, fairly long. Ribs carried well back, but not oversprung, as a terrier should be capable of being spanned by both hands behind the shoulder. Loins strong.

Hindquarters
Racy.

Feet
Small with thick pads.

Tail
Moderately short; fairly thick at base, then tapering. Set high, carried gaily, but not curled over back.

Gait/Movement
Has the soundness to follow a horse.

Coat
Harsh and dense; with close undercoat. Skin must be thick.

Colour
Red, wheaten, grizzle and tan, or blue and tan.

Size
Weight: dogs: 6-7 kgs (13-151/2 lbs); bitches: 5-6.5 kgs (111/2 -14 lbs).

Faults
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree, its effect on the terrier's ability to work, and the health and welfare of the dog.

Note
Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended

and what of these can be assessed in a show ring?

I think most of the positive points have been covered already, so I'll just add that our 2 lived with 4 (now down to 1 through old age) cats and an African Grey Parrot, and have shown little interest in anything other than the usual idle curiosity.

Introduce him early on, in a controlled manner and, like all other training, ensure than he has the opportunity to learn what the rules of the house are, and you'll be fine.

Again, ours are not destructive at all ...apart from loving to shred a toy to get at a squeaker!
and ours definitely shed hair EVERYWHERE! Lol

and what of these can be assessed in a show ring?

All of them.

Capable of following a horse, combining activity with gameness

so the show ring send the terriers to ground with foxes and see if they stay to ground do they? Yeah right, name me some real terrier men that use border's on a regular basis these days?

[img] http://images.fotopic.net/?iid=ymn1f9&outx=800&quality=70 [/img]

One of mine needs stripping & does shed a bit, the other you just cant strip & loses virtually nothing, at the moment he is a long haired BT 😉

Yeah right, name me some real terrier men that use border's on a regular basis these days?

Plenty around here do.

A-A
jeff Fennaroli was a top terrierman. He also showed dogs aswell as taking in lots of borders to get their working certificates for the owners ...you do know about the working certificate dont you?

There are many superb working border breeders out there. They are not as advertised for the obvious reasons. That is why its important to go to a reputable breeder.

Ps
i used J.Fennaroli and not other working border breeders for the obvious reason.

so these working terriers, do they conform to the kennel club standard as well as show bred dogs? Are they pure bred or are terrier men much more likely to outcross everyonce in a while? 99% of the show bred dogs would have a lead injection pretty quick if they rocked up in a working kennel.

Drac if you think "gamenes" can be assessed in a show ring I doubt you really know what it mean.

There are many superb working border breeders out there. They are not as advertised for the obvious reasons. That is why its important to go to a reputable breeder.

true I expect, but the reason I got upity was the the post about it being a waste to mix a russel with a border when many working terriers might have such breeding and have far less litter wastage.

oh and yes I know what a working certificate is but I've never met anyone who worked dogs and wanted one!!

anagallis_arvensis
We are talking about different things here now.
Terriermen arent bothered what dog they use. Main thing is to locate the fox or pig and dig down to it .. and you can guess the rest.
Other people who call themselves terriermen. Will not care if the terrier kills underground. Their favoured dog will be the patterdale.

Price is a big part in what dogs they use. One type of terrierman will generally not pay anything for his dog, its all kept close with good dogs.
The other terrierman, will pay big money. Favouring the irish stock. Big reputation etc .... and the dog then will prob last him a season before its ripped up too badly for him to stitch it up, so he needs to shoot it or it merely suffocates fighting underground. Yeah, these guys arent too clever to say the least.

Back to the border though.
A good border is very much sought after by one type of terriermen. The border is slower to start than most breeds. But superb when it starts, it has brains to think for itself, unlike the daft patterdale who only wants to attack and kill .. this breed are too hard for their own good.

Some places require a hard dog for foxes that have gone to earth, rocky areas like the lakes, patterdale and bedlington hence hard flexible narrow terriers

ratcatcher
Sorry fella ... you have been reading the wrong stuff if you think anybody is gonna put a dog into a rocky earth. They carry shovels not dynamite lol
The best - and longest lived - working dogs will mark the fox or pig for the terrierman to dig down to. Having them fight underground is risky, the dog can easilly suffocate. And almost always get ripped pretty good if he is onto a good dog fox or pig.
Forget the romantic/silly stories you have read about lakelands being used on rocky ground ..sure they may/will have, but it will either be by accident or by a numpty who has yet to lose a good dog in a similar way before.
And the bedlington ... not seen too many of them working. Certainly never a pedigree. They are an old working breed .. to see one you would never guess it though. But they were bred into dogs for their intelligence more than anything else fella.

If you want to debate terriers and the varying pros and cons then go to huntinglife.com and look at the earth dog sub-forum. It's a bit like the what-tyres question on here (that, and what x makes the best lurcher)

And the bedlington ... not seen too many of them working. Certainly never a pedigree. They are an old working breed .. to see one you would never guess it though. But they were bred into dogs for their intelligence more than anything else fella.

There's a good few working Beds on the forum - proper earth dogs.

I've been chatting to a local chap who's got a fair few lurchers, wolf-hounds and jack russells and he says the Bedlington's are bred into greys or whippets for the heart and tenacity. It's an endless debate much like bikes really with enthusiasts for each breed. According to him a good one is meant to be an excellent all-rounder as they're happy to go to earth but have the legs for rabbiting etc.

We've just bought a one and the debate over show vs. working for the breed is very polarized - decent working beds have lineages going back longer than most KC registered show dogs. They also fetch a premium but there's also huge debate over whether or not the KC has ruined the breed and whether any true Bedlingtons actually exist any more. A good coat and decent spannable size are prized in working dogs vs. daft show coats etc for the ring...

Mind you, there's not much 'working' about our Stanley at the moment:

[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5299097661_78a34dece0.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5001/5299097661_78a34dece0.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

(mother was KC registered pedigree and father from a working line, was bought as a family pet so ratting is going to be about the extent of his working life)

Might just check out a guinea pig instead. They sound a mare!

Great looking dog Woffle.
Lets not forget, these, like all dogs, were working breeds. The KC has merely tried to keep the breed true .. sadly, sometimes the authority of the breed standard has been distorted.
But concerning working dogs. Who nowadays needs to dig foxes or badgers? nobody. Its just done by ... hang on. Thats best kept for another thread.

But borders are great dogs. For all the right reasons also.

AA trying to prove point but changing his initial point or he's forgotten what he was on about he's wrapped so much up in his own bull crap.

Mooman well said.

Great looking dog Woffle.

Cheers. He's a complete loon - never thought I'd be a 'dog' person but I'm a complete convert now. Going back to the OP - don't know enough specifics about BT's but getting the hound was the best thing I've done in a long time...

(Oh, and if the shedding thing bothers you - get a Bedlington - no shedding at all and he's hypo-allergenic which pleased my wife no end)

There's a good few working Beds on the forum. There's a local chap who's got a fair few lurchers, wolf-hounds and jack russells and he says the Bedlington's are bred into greys or whippets for the heart and tenacity. A good one is meant to be an excellent all-rounder as they're happy to go to earth but have the legs for rabbiting etc.

You also need to take that site with a pinch of salt though eh lol

The bedlington has a very long history. Lots of people used them for lots of various reasons. The main mix you generally hear about is for the lurcher.
That said ..
I hear the new bestest .. very bestest .. running dog is the whippetXjackrussel ... or is it still the bull-greyhound lol

As said though Woffle. Thats a lovely looking pup. I wont even guess at the price you had to pay ...

That site's not really my cup of tea though parts make for an interesting read. Given the subject matter there's not surprisingly a fair few armchair warriors and people pontificating about things they know little about. (sounds familiar 🙂 )

As said though Woffle. Thats a lovely looking pup. I wont even guess at the price you had to pay ...

a lot less than you'd imagine! (and his brother is still available I think)

I do, very much like the old breeds.
Two dogs is now my limit though .. the garden is now a garden!

. The KC has merely tried to keep the breed true .. sadly, sometimes the authority of the breed standard has been distorted.

because you cannot judge gameness or ability to work in a show ring. Just look at many scottish deerhounds, I've seen lots run and doubt they could even catch a deer!

Drac I know full well what I'm talking about and its clear to me who is talking crap mooman seems to know what he's on about, you dont. There's nothing wrong with cross breeds was my point firstly and secondly the Kennel Club have screwed a great many breeds as they concentrate on conformation not health or working ability.

or is it still the bull-greyhound lol

suffer from much the same problem as many of the Patterdale's you talk about, run by idiots who get them too bashed up too quick.

oh and woffle's dog looks brilliant, to my understaning Beddies are used in Lurchers for their coat and a bit of fire.

AA your now back on point I see, which I do agree with sort of the KC has asked too much from some breeds but as to ruining them no not really. There are breeders out there that who try to stick to the KC recommendations too much and use 'dodgy' ways to do this. That's those breeders though not the KCs fault.

its the kennel club and its definitions of the breed that create the basic problem though. They set the standards and show owners try to stick to the conformation ideals in preference to all else. The KC are the root cause

Its just too easy/simple to blame the KC ... sure they could do more to help. But the root is most definetly with the breeders.

Look at the king charles spaniel and its skull problems, look at the old english bulldog and its many many problems ..

Bad breeders are the ones maintaining and in many cases increasing these problems. If the breeders all had the breeds best interest in mind .. would they still choose to breed from the ones with the smallest skull or the shortest widest legs? or worst disfigured mouths??

its the KC insistance on the purity of the breed that is also at fault, before the KC people had types of dog and could mix in new genes when needed. The KC rules prevent this. Anyway its well of the topic.

Border Terriers, nice looking dogs, never had one myself, good luck with it.

KC is for cross breeds and pure breeds, it also keeps a a check on breeders registered with them to try and makes sure they don't do close line breeding where the problem comes from. It's been active for about 140 years now yet it's only recent years that problems have started occurring, can't blame the KC for that.

it also keeps a a check on breeders registered with them to try and makes sure they don't do close line breeding where the problem comes from.

Its not working very well than as the thousands of KC registered Pugs have the genetic diversity equivalent to something like 60 dogs and that vizla that won crufts has sired some huge proportion of all UK vizlas born since.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/3022373/Top-breeder-says-Kennel-Club-is-in-denial-over-deformed-dogs.html ]worth reading?[/url]

well Drac I must go and try registering my lurcher with the Kennel Club 😕

Didn't claim it was perfect but again it's the breeders not the KC doing that.

TERRIERMAN.COM "http://www.terrierman.com/Calbol.pdf"

Population structure and inbreeding from pedigree
analysis of purebred dogs
Federico C. F. Calboli , Jeff Sampson †, Neale Fretwell ‡ and David J. Balding
? Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Imperial College, St Mary’s Campus,
Norfolk Place, London W2 1PG, UK
† The Kennel Club, Clarges Street, London W1J 8AB, UK
‡ WALTHAM Centre for Pet Nutrition, Freeby Lane, Waltham-on-the-Wolds, LE14

Dog breeds are required to conform to a breed standard, the pursuit of which often
involves intensive inbreeding: the inbreeding effective population size of most breeds
considered here is orders of magnitude smaller than the census size, and exceeds 100
only in the Labrador Retriever. This has adverse consequences in terms of loss of
genetic variability and high prevalence of recessive genetic disorders. These features
make purebred dogs attractive for the study of genetic disorders, but raise concerns
about canine welfare.
Dog registration rules have only been rigidly enforced for about 50 years, prior to that
occasional outcrossing was still possible. Anecdotal evidence suggests that loss of
genetic variation and high levels of inbreeding have adverse consequences for canine
health and fertility. We have found that the loss of genetic diversity is very high, with
many breeds losing over 90% of singleton variants in just six generations.

Dog registration rules have only been rigidly enforced for about 50 years,

90 years after the KC then, so not the KCs fault.

its them that make and enforce the rules is it that hard to grasp?

here's a picture to help
[img] [/img]

its them that make and enforce the rules is it that hard to grasp?

It's the breeders that choose to breed them so close, not the KC.

Anyway BTs rock, mine curled up on my lap for his cuddle.

cause and effect, obviously is harder to grasp for some than I thought.

Molly's just gone out for a shit. She rocks too.

Wow, in true STW fashion a simple request for some advice turns into an argument. 😯
All I asked for was peoples opinions and experiences of one breed, not about the moral ethics of the KC.

deadlydarcey, again thanks for you help. I'm now in contact with a few local breeders.

To all the BT owners. When you first got them, how long was it before you were comfortable with leaving them on their own?

To all the BT owners. When you first got them, how long was it before you were comfortable with leaving them on their own?

If you cage them to start with, then not too long at all from what I can remember.
Then limit them to the kitchen (or similar) single room when going out.

Kobe, the youngest of the two, & also male FWIW, is a real pain to leave, barks at everything, will chew skirting & stairs if bored & winds the neighbours up to boot, he also chases after dogs (well anything really) barking his head off & scaring owners & the other dogs, my wife hates walking him.
The one I showed in the pic earlier, Braid, has been an absolutely brilliant dog, only trouble is she is a bit prone to illness & wieght gain (show stock) where the little git (working stock) is indestructible 😉

PS, have you looked at the cost of pet insurance? My two cost about £50pm ❗

Cheers.

Kobe, the youngest of the two, & also male FWIW, is a real pain to leave, barks at everything, will chew skirting & stairs if bored & winds the neighbours up to boot

Have you tried Kong toys? Ours keeps Stanley entertained for an age trying to get the treats out. They last well too - he completely destroys soft toys within hours...

We have three Kong's in varying sizes, but Braid will just collect them all on her bed & growl if he goes near them when food is involved!

Cheers anyway.