MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
The capabilities of a motorbike are usually much higher than the capabilities of the rider - and it is that that I refer to.
Same as cars then. Only cars make bigger holes in walls, hedges, and groups of pedestrians.
Sometimes I dunno why TJ continues posting.. really. What's the point?
Dunno really Molgrips. Infuriated by the attitude of MF I suppose. I'll give up now as he seems incapable of understanding a simple point.
Red rag to a bull?
Bit between his teeth?
Nothing better to do?
Same as all of us really. 🙄
Will you give up TJ? Really, will you?
Ever?
You both have points, and I can see where you are both coming from. TJ, you are being a little anal but that's how you are and I understand that 😀
Ta for that Molgrips - I thought no one understood the point.
And overtaking (whilst wheelie-ing) a car making good progress
Well apparently not as the bike overtook you. Did he cause an accident? Nope so he was in control I think you really need to chill out...
Ta for that Molgrips - I thought no one understood the point.
So are you going to show true humility and accept that I had a point then too TJ? And retract your continued 'ignorant and stupid' accusations?
And Juan - I am not even going to rise to your trolling.
MF - I have never been able to figure out what your point is intended to be. You remain ignorant of the capabilities of a motorcycle thus stupid to try to define what is safe and what is not on a bike.
Juan. Almost causing an accident is still bad. Just because they didn't actually hit does not make it a good manoeuvre or that he was in full control.
MF - I have never been able to figure out what your point is intended to be. You remain ignorant of the capabilities of a motorcycle thus stupid to try to define what is safe and what is not on a bike.
LOL - I have already said it is not the motorcycle but the rider that is the danger. If you think you are capable on a bike because the bike is capable, then god help you.
Molgrips - I wouldn't even have bothered if I were you!
TJ you have to admit that a lot of stuff that motorcyclists do is wildly unsafe, obvious even to those who are not motorcyclists.
The death statistics speak for themselves if nothing else.
Motorcyclists, love to show off some of them. One did a wheelie to impress my female friend when he saw her looking at his bike. Didn't realise his mate had stopped at the lights and wheelied right into the back of him. I just about shat meself I was laughing so much.
TJ you have to admit that a lot of stuff that motorcyclists do is wildly unsafe, obvious even to those who are not motorcyclists.
No you are wrong Molgrips - we are ignorant and stupid because we don't ride bikes so we can't possibly understand how these seemingly dangerous manoeuvres are perfectly safe because the motorcyclist rides in a bubble where no third party, unexpected road hazard or road markings can possibly effect or hurt them. Until it does. 😉
molgrips - MemberTJ you have to admit that a lot of stuff that motorcyclists do is wildly unsafe, obvious even to those who are not motorcyclists.
The death statistics speak for themselves if nothing else.
There are a couple of points on this. A lot of stuff that appears unsafe to non motorcyclist is not unsafe. Thats a large part of the point I was trying to make. Car drivers don't see the bikes coming and dont realise what reserves of grip they have so what is in fact a perfectly safe manoeuvre( in the context of "is anything safe on the road" ) appears to the car driver to be unsafe as they grossly overestimate speed and underestimate safety margins. 'cos a bike is so quick accelerting they seem to suddenly appear in the car drivers view - even if legally it appears to be high speed - but its the acceleration not the speed that means they appear so quickly
equally there are a whole set of unsafe riders out there for sure. Minly born agains like MFs pal
Interestingly on accidents the typical and by far the most common serious motorcycle accident is a middle-aged born again on a country road at [i]under the speed limit[/i] without another vehicle being present - basically overcooking corners.
The fast riders you see tend not to have accidents.
Motorcycles don't have disproportionate numbers of crashes - just eh consequences are much nastier
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ (Ad nauseam)
A lot of stuff that appears unsafe to non motorcyclist is not unsafe
Right, that's fairly easy to see... but an awful lot of it IS patently unsafe. Sounds to me like wheelying through the no-man's land towards an oncoming car is not safe, and not a good idea.
The fast riders you see tend not to have accidents
I remain to be convinced by this I'm afraid.
equally there are a whole set of unsafe riders out there for sure. Minly born agains like MFs pal
That's looking very judgemental on someone you don't know and have never seen ride, I have to say.
That's looking very judgemental on someone you don't know and have never seen ride, I have to say.
But that is what TJ does best I am afraid.
The guy in question is an experienced rider on his third bike (albeit with a large break in his twenties and thirties which I accept). And I can honestly say, hand firmly on heart, that he will be one of the safest riders around and most certainly not because he is hesitant.
But let's not let what I know as a fact get in the way of the wild assumptions TJ is making in order to back up his rather flimsy argument.
Molgrips - thats what the stats say. Of course anyone can have an accident but the typical and common accident is a born again on a country road at under the speed limit on a tight bend. The fast boys tend to have far less accidents. Simply because to ride fast you nede a much higher level of skill. Thats fast in motorcycle term - all bike are fast in car terms.
snidey about MFs pal - you got me bang to rights- - but from the description MF gave of him he is right in the demographic that has serious accidents.
Edit:
MF - your pal is not experienced. 2 yrs recent experience. A few years decades ago is irrelevant. Has he had advanced training? His 3rd bike? How amny miles? I would say 100 000 + to be experienced.
An experienced rider is someone like PP or Juan with decades experience and how on earth can you say he is a safe rider - you do not have the experience to judge.
But TJ's right. Pretty much bang on. If you've not ridden a motorbike, you simply don't have a clue. Honestly, you don't. 🙂
What you, the car driver, might think is unexpected, isn't.
What looks dangerous, isn't. It's that simple. It really is.
Bikes are smaller, quicker, lighter, more manouverable. There's no windscreen pillars blocking your view to the front or rear. You're higher up. You can position yourself anywhere on the road (Either side of it) very easily to get a far better view of stuff than you can ever dream of in a car. This is what enables you to travel faster: You can see more. Lots more. And you can hear it, and feel it, and (In the case of DERV on the road!) smell it too.
And mostly, you're not sitting insulated from the world in a quiet, comfy air conditioned bubble, listening to the radio and fiddling with the sat-nav.
You're part of your surroundings, no distractions, 100% concentration because, yes, you know you're vunerable, you KNOW someone in a car is GOING TO get up your nose at some point soon, and that's all you have to do: Concentrate.
And this is how you've been trained.
It's utterly astonishing how fast it's possible to get from A to B on a motorbike, without ever feeling rushed, taking the slightest risk, or even going too far over the speed limits.
I'm not trying to be controversial here, but someone who has only ever driven a car simply doesn't have the foggiest, and that's why argumnets like this happen. Step out of your bubble, give it a go. You might not like it, but odds-on you probably would.... And then you'd begin to understand why.... 🙂
MF - your pal is not experienced. 2 yrs recent experience. A few years few years decades ago is irrelevant. Has he had advanced training?An experienced rider is someone like PP or Juan with decades experience and how on earth can you say he is a safe rider - you do not have the experience to judge.
Why is previous experience irrelevant? It is still riding experience - he rode for probably 4 years or more back then.
I accept he is not as experienced as others, but 2 years daily riding means he has gained plenty of experience.
I cannot judge he is a safe rider perhaps, but I can assume his riding ability will match his driving ability which is much more than you can ever hope to be able to do.
<snip> Step out of your bubble, give it a go. You might not like it, but odds-on you probably would.... And then you'd begin to understand why....
There you go MF, give it a go and you'll never have to endure being called names by TJ again. 🙂
BTW, born again? Where does a 5 year break and recent experience being limited to a crappy old BMW K75 measure up in all this? Just asking like....
D. evils Advocate.
I'm sorry, come into this late, and to be honest by the crap being spouted not sure i want to join the debate but....
The fast boys tend to have far less accidents.
What UTTER UTTER UTTER UTTER Drivel.
ZZZZZZZZZZ
And yet you keep on coming back!
And yet you keep on coming back!
I know - the continued absurd posts keep drawing me in - I really shouldn't let them. And unfortunately there is no footie on till 3pm today to distract me.
Simply because to ride fast you nede a much higher level of skill
Total and utter bull. Any idiot, even a half asleep middle lane hogger who can't calculate the time to the next lorry can make a bike go fast, all you need to do is twist the throttle and know how to change gears. Dead simple. Doing it without hurting yourself, that's a bit more tricky.
But like pp says, being aware of your vulnerability is how you ride quick and safe. Forward planning and envoirnmental awareness, competely missing from the average car drivers aresnal of abilities as they fiddle with their sad nav of wrap themselves up in Barry manilow's greatest shit, totally oblivous to the world around them, are key factors in any safe bike ride. But that doesn't mean all riders have them. Given the "mummy, mummy look at the bad biker in leather" attitude of the likes of molgripes and mastiles-fannyboy (oh look, he overtook without indicating, slow lane? not for me boy, I'm driving a CAR) are you surprised how apoplectic they get when someone behaves like an idiot?
LHS - you got anything to back that up? My assertion is backed with the stats
Travelling in excess of the speed limit was considered
to be a contributory factor in just 3.5% accidents on the motorcycle accident
database.
Edit :
Other more recent statistics than the DETR report showed that there has been a shift in location of accidents from urban to rural environments and that the peak age for accidents has moved away from young to "born again" riders.
Have a read of this
http://www.survivalskills.clara.net/riding_skills_6.htm
Boblo - depends how old you are an how much experience before - and a K75 is a real bike 🙂
TJ, that is a VAST difference between excess of the speed limit and excessive speed. Take a quick look at page 22/23 of your report talking about 15% of accidents coming from people binning it due to excessive speed in corners.
But, you carry on thinking the way you do, darwinism will play its role soon enough! 😯
Given the "mummy, mummy look at the bad biker in leather" attitude of the likes of molgripes and mastiles-fannyboy
WTF is that about? In the OP I complained about the guy being offensive to me, it had absolutely NOTHING at all to do with the fact he was on a motorbike beyond the fact that I could see his actions clearly. On OTHER threads all I have ever said about motorcycling is that it is dangerous, and some motorcyclists ride like c**ts. So no different to any other driver.
Where the F*CK do you get off having a go at me for something you've MADE UP? Presumably because you want to feel better than some other forum poster you've never met?
LHS - Do you ride a motorbike? More than 250 000 miles over 30 yrs here
Read up a bit more. its not excess speed for the road or the capabilities of the bike - its the capabilities of the rider.
So an experienced rider could do that corner at taht speed. Teh inexperienced throttles off or brakes in panic and crashes
[b]BINGO[/b] Did someone put the kettle on or is that just the sound of piss boiling?
Where the F*CK do you get off having a go at me for something you've MADE UP? Presumably because you want to feel better than some other forum poster you've never met?
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But back to the point, 400 yards is a long way to stay out to overtake the next vehicle.... 😆
PS, I am shaking my head in disbelief that you rose to that
Ok fair cop.. I am feeling generally annoyed this afternoon and had my mardy glasses still on.
But back to the point, 400 yards is a long way to stay out to overtake the next vehicle....
*drags CK from his computer and pounds him repeatedly in the face*
Molgrips - lay off the coffee and do some yoga before your drive home. Pleeeeezzzze
But back to the point, 400 yards is a long way to stay out to overtake the next vehicle....
for a car or a motorbike? How experienced is the rider? Is he mates with TJ or M-F? 🙄
Please? Well only if you agree to stop being so mother***king anal about the highway code and nitpicking other people's arguments.. 🙂
Why does anyone bother arguing with TJ? he's clearly a professional internet waster, must spend hours, days even searching for snippets of stats and 'facts' to back up his ascertions and statements.
The thing is TJ, you're probably right most of the time, trouble is you end up arguing with people equally convinced of their own intellegence.
It's not like anything changes through these arguments either, monumental waste of time.
Ok fair cop.. I am feeling generally annoyed this afternoon and had my mardy glasses still on.But back to the point, 400 yards is a long way to stay out to overtake the next vehicle....
*drags CK from his computer and pounds him repeatedly in the face*
hehe yeah - hook, line and indeed sinker. Amused me anyway 🙂 Sorry molgrips!
What UTTER UTTER UTTER UTTER Drivel.
I don't think it is, no.
Sure, there's plenty of weekend warriors who can open the throttle wide on a 180bhp sportsbike and stuff themselves into the hedge. But the really quick riders are the massively experienced ones, the ones who rack up the miles in all weathers, who don't take risks, the good ones who you don't really notice until they're 100 yards in front of you and getting smaller. (I don't class myself like this, though)
A busy road isn't the place for taking risks or 'enjoying yourself' for sure, but that doesn't mean you can't travel [i]seriously[/i] rapidly.... Not at all. 🙂
I can vividly remember doing some training for my IaM test. It was autumn, with low sun and damp patches everywhere. I was leading down a B-road not a million miles away from the Leith Hill area, and the conditions were't ideal (Sun, leaves, wet bits) and I was concentrating 100% on the road, riding as I'd been taught.
Honestly, everything felt nice and smooth and unhurried. I wasn't missing anything, I wasn't taking the slightest risk, or getting in anyones way. It was very relaxing actually.
Then I made a big mistake...
I looked at the speedo.
So when we stopped, the instructor says to me,
'Why did you slow down?'
'Well, I looked at the speedo and though I was going a bit too fast'
'No, that was fine. If you were on your test you'd have passed no problem. Look at the road, don't be concerned with your speed'
To be fair, it's not always it happens like that, but when it does it's a wonderful feeling. 🙂
Because you were over the speed limit PP? Or because the number just seemed too high?
PP I bet steve peat crashes less than me but I bet when he crashes he really crashes.
PP how fast were you going?
And everyone knows the Institute of Advanced Motoring is a load of bollocks.
The problem with driving/riding by feel is that as you get used to the speed you start to get faster.
Think about it PP, what you are saying is that you can drive as fast as you like based on how good you THINK you are. Which is clearly stupid.
And everyone knows the Institute of Advanced Motoring is a load of bollocks.
Only those that think they know it all, and have nothing to learn.
You can never know too much, or have too much training. I have no idea if I'm any good or not in the grand scheme of things, but I know I'm better then I was. 🙂
molgrips, MF - every so often, I'll get myself into a real tizz about a bicker I am having on t'internet and it'll be bother me and I'll start to get personally annoyed about it. If I'm lucky, I'll think to myself "why should I care?" and then I'll step away from the computer and give myself a break. If I'm unlucky, I'll get more agitated about some thicko online until someone makes me sit on the naughty step.
Is that how you might be feeling now? Is it time to hit pause? Unfortunately STW doesn't have an "ignore" button like other board software does.
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The problem with driving/riding by feel is that as you get used to the speed you start to get faster.
It's not a 'problem', and it's not done by 'feel'.
It's a 'skill' and it's done by 'observation' and 'planning'
But being faster and safer is the aim, yes.
konabunny - Membermolgrips, MF - every so often, I'll get myself into a real tizz about a bicker I am having on t'internet and it'll be bother me and I'll start to get personally annoyed about it. If I'm lucky, I'll think to myself "why should I care?" and then I'll step away from the computer and give myself a break. If I'm unlucky, I'll get more agitated about some thicko online until someone makes me sit on the naughty step.
Sums it up all too well. I should have walked away yesterday sometime, I should never have posted today on this, I should have left it alone ages ago!
Think about it PP, what you are saying is that you can drive as fast as you like based on how good you THINK you are. Which is clearly stupid.
Not at all. You've got the wrong end of the stick there, how do you arrive at a conclusion like that?
**I typed out a few replies to that, then deleted them. Because I can't even begin to explain properly how wildy wide of the mark you are with that**
You're just wrong. Totally WRONG.
Now I'm beginning to see how TJ was feeling earlier. Pass me a brick wall to bash my head on please.....
Want to borrow my brick wall PP? Its only got a few dents in it.
read Konabunnys post and walk away. We have tried to shed some light but no one is looking
They are a bit like people who hate cyclists - zooming around on the bridleways scaring the horse and all being reckless pavement riding lycra louts
what you are saying is that you can drive as fast as you like based on how good you THINK you are.
I must try harder to explain...... errrrrr...... ummmmmm......
I'll try and break it down bit by bit -
It's not how good you think you are
It's being aware of what you and the bike can do together (being aware of how good you are)
And learning The System will maximise how safely you can do it
And the more aware you are, and the more you learn and practice, the better you get at it.
It's not about speed.
It's about safety.
So it's about being able to use the speed you have safely and responsibly
Which is where the observation and planning come in
You see. You decide what to do. You do it.
And the more you can see, the earlier you can make that decision, so the safer a certain speed becomes.
I think that makes sense. 😕
Right. I've only got a 200cc scooter right now, but early next year we'll (Mrs PP also rides a motorbike) be getting something bigger we can both ride and go touring on.
When we do*, I will [i]gladly[/i] take anyone who thinks I'm talking crap out on the pillion for a nice relaxed ride, so you can at least have some point of reference.
Where do you live Molgrips? I'll put my money where my mouth is. 😀
*2 blokes on a Vespa looks a bit gay
*points and laughs at teh scooterist*
It's not how good you think you are
It's being aware of what you and the bike can do together (being aware of how good you are)
The same thing, mate.
What you're saying is that you can go as fast as you think you can handle, but only provided you're RIGHT about how good you think you are. Well that's everyone, isn't it?
I do take your point, but I am saying that people's psychology there is the weak link.
kona bunny we have all been there I spent 15 pages arguing about global warming with someone who could not even count to ten accurately and posted up Sarah Palin whilst I used science and published reports. We just dont seem able to stop ourselves even when we know the other person will not change their mind or is too stupid to see how stupid they are yet we just post on and on.
I now just say a bit and then give up I threw away the shovel and dont just keep digging
By the way, the reason people argue like this on forums is the language/text barrier. For my part, I really AM listening to what you are saying, and trying to understand it. I hope you are all paying me the same respect.
The problem is that, for some reason, people assume the stupidest possible interpretation of what other people are saying. Why don't we all try a little harder to respect each other? After all, most of us (and everyone on this thread) really are reasonable and intelligent folk.
So I'll rephrase. PP - I agree that you can ride a motorbike nicely, smoothly and considerately taking into account safety and the conditions. But my point is that you can't really trust everyone to correctly assess their own skills and what's a safe speed, can you?
But in any case, how did we get onto this? MF was talking about someone wheelying through no-mans land and almost hitting a car, which is clearly the opposite of what you are advocating.
Molgrips - you actually came over reasonably reasonable to me. Still not fully comprehending the basic point but not closed mind either.
What point are we discussing now then?
I'm a motorcyclist, weekend warrior if you like
It makes you a better car driver, just like being a cyclist does.
The training received nowadays(and the current test) drill this into you
(sorry MF & Grips, 's true)
However, when I was 17 you just rode round the block twice without falling off to get your licence. Maybe this is where the "born agains" are lacking, as when they come back to the scene they either go HD-type pipe and slippers, or the sportsbike route. It's tempting to push the things beyond your skill level, and in support of that side of the argument I would agree that the modern machine is much more capable than 99% of riders.
But there's an element of truth in what TJ and PP say - some things may look scary to the uninitiated, but that 1% know what they are doing. In the same way that some of the MTB stunts you see look terrifying, but you know obviously that the guys concerned can pull it off - and on your bike too.
The public roads however are no place for scaring people, even if you know what you're doing.
great thread though
But my point is that you can't really trust everyone to correctly assess their own skills and what's a safe speed, can you?
No, certainly not. Which is why the motorcycling community has done well in making advanced training the 'trendy' thing to do, at one level or another. Yet in the car world, it's comparitively rare.
By the way, the reason people argue like this on forums is the language/text barrier.
Naah, I'm pretty much always like this. 😉
LHS - Do you ride a motorbike?
Yes, not as much as experience as you but have been riding for 18 years.
The issue you have is that you think that because you are experienced you can ride faster than most and everything will be ok. Well, not only is that dangerous to yourself, it is also selfish to everyone else who will be involved when you eventually die because of your mis-guided self belief.
I have seen good friends who i would classify as very experienced riders get caught out with the same attitude.
Yeah, the car world could certainly do with a hell of a lot more training. The thing is though, the motorcycling community can get away with making safety cool, because they have a reservoir of coolness to draw from. Plus they are a community, of sorts. Motorists aren't - they're just everyone (mostly).
Do you defend the wheelying through no mans land and almost hitting someone tho?
Do you defend the wheelying through no mans land and almost hitting someone tho?
of course he doesn't ..
kona bunny we have all been there I spent 15 pages arguing about global warming with someone who could not even count to ten accurately and posted up Sarah Palin whilst I used science and published reports
LOL, still living in a dream world I see.
Do you defend the wheelying through no mans land and almost hitting someone tho?
of course he doesn't ..
So what's the argument then? 🙂
By the way, the reason people argue like this on forums is the language/text barrier.
Yes in real life we just nod politley agree with everyone and have almost no opinion on anything we are bland and rarely speak up etc 🙄
We are bored and argumentative FFS admit it to yourself FFS man 😆
LHS - I simply did not say that at any point. Part of the reason I stopped riding was the speeds I was going at were getting faster each year despite the touring BMW and it was all going to end in tears.
I [i]was[/i] a fast smoooth skilled rider tho - the stealth type you don't notice hopefully. It would take me a while now to get back up to speed
Most of my motorcycling friends have taken a step back over the last few years.
All I tried to say was that car drivers perceptions of the speeds and the danger of motorcycles is usually very wrong. MF in particular was slating motorcyclists without actually having any idea of their capabilities and was bigging up his inexperienced friend as a super safe rider.
It's sunny out you know.
[i]The public roads however are no place for scaring people, even if you know what you're doing.[/i]
This pretty much sums it up for me, I'm a completely average driver and lapsed motorcyclist, I understand the point that PP and TJ are making entirely. You can do stuff on a bike that appears to be dangerous, but it's not really, but if you scare the crap out of Mr and Mrs average whilst they're on the way back from Tesco, then in reality it's just as bad. Consideration for other road users is the missing piece of this particular puzzle.
Do you defend the wheelying through no mans land and almost hitting someone tho?
Not my argument! I'm fine with the one I've got, ta.
🙂
What happened? Did I miss that bit?
We are bored and argumentative FFS admit it to yourself FFS man
Well it's true, I am argumentative in real life, and also bored out of my f*cking BONCE at work.. but arguments in real life seem far less acrimonious in general...
In fairness to MF's friend - you don't know if he's safe or not. If I rode a bike I'd make damn sure I was safe about it because I'm that way inclined.
PP, if you weren't arguing about that, what were you arguing against? I'm lost now!
Where do you live Molgrips? I'll put my money where my mouth is.*2 blokes on a Vespa looks a bit gay
I have 1000cc's of Italian v-twin if you'd prefer to look a bit less gay and a cheap (Lidl) intercom if you want to hear what goes on in a motorcyclists' head.
nickc - same as scaring redsocks when out in the lakes - only MF ws playing the role of the redsocks 🙂
When out on your MTB even if you slow down and be polite you will still scare the crap out of some folk 'cos they wander along in their own little world
I have 1000cc's of Italian v-twin if you'd prefer to look a bit less gay.
That actually sounds MORE gay to be honest.
but if you scare the crap out of Mr and Mrs average whilst they're on the way back from Tesco, then in reality it's just as bad. Consideration for other road users is the missing piece of this particular puzzle.
That's very true, and 99% of the time it's doable as well, but you can't account for the odd person who's really not watching what they're doing, never sees you approach, and ends up scared witless no matter how wide a berth you give them, which I have no doubt does happen.
I have 1000cc's of Italian v-twin if you'd prefer to look a bit less gay.
Cheers, but we shall hpoefully have our own Italin V-twin next year. Probably a Multistrada or an ST3 I think, possibly a Guzzi or 'Prilia maybe... 🙂
EDIT
I love my Vespa. Cool as you like, classy black, 72mpg and £72 insurance. 🙂
L twin I hope 😆
PP; very true.
£72 insurance
Being old has it's advantages as that's about what it costs me to insure my CBR600F fully comp. It doesn't manage 72mpg though...