[Closed] Blatant Lockdown cheating

we had middle class people hiding while the working classes brought them stuff

Bollocks. A lot of middle class people were up to their ****ing eyeballs putting their own lives at risk to help others in the first lockdown.

Probably 10th iteration.

I don’t do much Facebook but had to pick my jaw up with a contact saying “Escaped for a couple of nights in Aviemore, Cairngorm was very quiet but nice to get away and dinner at House of Bruar”

Yes, it’s quiet because you’ve driven From a Level 3 area to a level 1 you absolutely bellend. And you’d think his wife, being a very senior nurse, perhaps know the score. But no. **** me.

I'm not trying to make a snarky point here or anything, but I wonder...

Does griping on the internet about others' breaking the rules just make us more negative, or is it a useful pressure valve?

almost zero risk

Do you want to speak to my next door neighbour, made a widower this week… or my Aunt, made a widow last week…? I’m sorry if you’re missing out on a foreign holiday this month Jim… but you can put the money towards a bigger trip next winter hopefully.

Around 8.8 million over 70s in the UK

The death rate from Covid is vanishingly small for the over 70's too compared to the many other things that older people tend to die of.

Are you trolling, or just a ____ Jim?

Go easy on Jim, his anal bleaching experiment has had some unexpected side effects

The risk to the over 70s is kept low by our use of social distancing to prevent the disease from getting to them… if it does get to them, then the risk of it causing them serious problems or death is far from zero, I’m afraid. If you want to talk about quality of life Jim, talk to some older people that have survived covid but are yet to fully recover from it.

Just out of interest, does anyone NOT agree with the following?

the government want the population to be blamed for the virus. And here we have on this thread, people threatening to grass up their fellow man for some minor transgression. It is convenient for the Government as it hides their own serious failings, their dodgy graphs and the multi-million pound PPE contracts handed out to their mates and donors without scrutiny

The death rate from Covid is vanishingly small for the over 70’s too compared to the many other things that older people tend to die of.

It's not really about the fatality rate and never was. It's the stress it puts on the health care system. The survival rate ranges from about 95-99%. If you look at places which haven't done a good job at controlling the spread, their hospitals are past full, they are treating people in parking lots, they are having covid positive workers treat patients because they have no choice. Oh, and just in case you think that because you aren't an OAP you'll be fine, the age of people needing extensive intervention in hospital is dropping. Iirc in the US it's 40-50yrs. They are staying longer and leaving sicker.

Just out of interest, does anyone NOT agree with the following?

I absolutely agree with it.

But that doesn't excuse breaking the lockdown rules.

The over 70s have a greater than 15% chance of needing hospital care for Covid if they catch the virus. How that hospital care turns out will depend on how many people we let get to the point of needing hospital care at the same time. So, social distancing is doing two things to help the over 70s… reducing their risk of catching the virus, and making sure hospitals can offer them care by reducing the number of others competing for care should they need it (which is very likely, and not at all close to zero).

Just out of interest, does anyone NOT agree with the following?

I have no idea if the govt wants me to be scared. I do know that health experts want me to take it seriously. That way I am motivated to do what I can to minimize the risk of it to me and everyone else.
Government s will always find convenient ways to hide their failings. You can tell what you think at the next election. It's got nothing to do with being smart about stopping the spread.
It's hardly a minor transgression when the continued spread is crippling the economy, costing millions and causing people serious health risks.

The death rate from Covid is vanishingly small for the over 70’s too compared to the many other things that older people tend to die of.

So do we leave people of any age infected by Covid at home to "sweat it out"? After all if there's so little risk of death there's no point tying up hospital beds is there? I suppose the same goes for other small issues which just happen to kill a few people, like pneumonia for instance.

And with good reason now we know more about Covid, because the death rate for Covid for the under 70’s is vanishingly small, almost zero risk compared to your chances of dying of many other things.

Which makes perfect sense apart from one teeny weeny little thing....

Even those giving it '**** it' are highly likely to have loved ones over the age of 70. And it's pretty much a dead cert that someone in their circle of family/friends will have.

There really is some monumental stupidity around.

I think a lot of people are actually banking on the fact that if they do screw it up for someone else, by killing their elderly relatives, there could never really be any proof it was down to them.

But a huge proportion of our society has their heads so far up their own arses or on 'soshul meedya' that they can't do anything properly in the medium to long term.

And with good reason now we know more about Covid, because the death rate for Covid for the under 70’s is vanishingly small, almost zero risk compared to your chances of dying of many other things.

It's.

Not.

About.

You.

Your risk may be small - and that's very debatable but a different argument - but how many people are you prepared to kill as a carrier?

Just out of interest, does anyone NOT agree with the following?

I don't agree with conflating two separate arguments as if they're one and the same.

Your risk may be small – and that’s very debatable but a different argument – but how many people are you prepared to kill as a carrier?

You can't prove it, you can't pin anything on me....me....me....me.

It was always going to be like this given how entitled many people are.

But as tragic as your story is, I’m assuming had they died of flu or a heart disease or something else rather than Covid you’d have just accepted that people sometimes die of things? Or should we all be aiming to be living forever now?

Jesus christ what is wrong with you? People have lost family members and your response is "tragic, but..."?

Last I checked you couldn't catch heart disease, and flu doesn't have a fortnight incubation period.

Oh wait. Joined two days ago. That explains everything. Bye.

Oh wait. Joined two days ago. That explains everything. Bye.

Bit quick?

We hadn't got on to 5G masts yet.

So, social distancing is doing two things to help the other 70s… reducing their risk of catching the virus, and making sure hospitals can offer them care by reducing the number of others competing for care should the need it (which is very likely, and not at all close to zero).

All of that needs to be balanced against some of the other things it's doing.

Removing social activities - stopping people from attending clubs, groups and activities.
Increasing feelings of depression and isolation.
Stripping away things that make life worth living for many.

People like statistics and lines on graphs because it seems to make sense of everything.
But the impact of a virus is not neat - it's messy and qualitative as well as quantitative.

The total focus on stats and the failure to have a balanced discussion has allowed right-wing groups to effectively use COVID-19 to generate support.

Why is it that it's only Daily Mail types who seem to be talking about some pretty reasonable issues?

I tend not to worry what others may or may not chose to do. I do however believe that most people chose to do the right and necessary thing to restrict transmission of what is a new human pathogen about 4x as pathogenic as influenza, and twice as transmissible. It is not failure of personal behaviors that leads to resurgence, it is the two simple facts that 1) it's a transmissible respiratory pathogen and 2) there is very little preexisting population immunity.

A minority of people will always cheat. But the distribution is Pareto - 80% silent majority quietly get on with doing the right thing. These are the people who should be thanked. And 20% doing their own thing (probably fewer). Blaming the population for spread serves no one and is disingenuous, the policies to restrict spread are at odds with the economy and not sustainable. But they do work and should be used judiciously.

And I am always happy to debate with any sceptics. Even on lockdownsceptics.org, although that has become a bit of an echo chamber for Trump. I don't care for Toby Young's views, but I think challenge is important. I've weighed the science and have come to a carefully measured opinion. I don't just pick the facts that seem to support a belief.

The death rate from Covid is vanishingly small for the over 70’s too compared to the many other things that older people tend to die of.

It wasn't in April. Mortality rates were doubled across all ages 45+. It was brought down by social distancing during Lockdown. As we opened up, admissions and deaths have begun to climb (where was the acquired immunity?). Slower due to Tiers and working from home, but rise they will.

The death rate from Covid is vanishingly small for the over 70’s too compared to the many other things that older people tend to die of.

This thread has been pretty impressive factually so far. It's a shame you can't contribute Jim.

I’m not trying to make a snarky point here or anything, but I wonder…

Does griping on the internet about others’ breaking the rules just make us more negative, or is it a useful pressure valve?

@chakaping. Probably a mixture of both. For some, it'll likely relieve some tension and also be a bit of a balance check that they're not the only one getting annoyed and/or upset.

I think the downside is that if we keep posting about "infringements" then it makes it look like everyone is ignoring the rules and that, in turn, makes us each less likely to abide by them "because no one else is". I still tend to think that most folk are mostly doing the right thing (let's accept there was always going to be some leakage). What I don't understand is the hypocrisy of folk calling out the likes of Dominic Cummings and then using that as an excuse to also be a dick.

Jim's right, here in France they gave the causes of death for this year and Covid was at the bottom of the list of the five or six causes given. Cancer (150 000) was about four times the Covid rate and guess which treatments are being postponed to make space in hospitals. Thing is that end of life cancer patients don't spend three weeks in intensive care.

As for denouncing lockdown cheating my view is based on local culture and being able to see the gestapo requisitioned accomodation for my home town if I lean out of my living room window. Godwin's rule I know but there's a reason people let the police do the policing in these parts. Divide to better rule.

I stick to the rules, what others do is up to them and I'm not about to get upset about it. In fact when I see the shop keepers demonstrating they have my support. Shops can't open despite much evidence to demostrate transmision rates are low but schools are obliged to open despite much higher transmission rates.

It's a mess, we're all in it together, blaming one group or another is what those in charge hope you'll do, it's means you're distrated from pointing the finger at them.

While the fact of it being pretty brutal on older people there also the small point that it’s bloody awful in themlongterm. I got it in Feb and once again last week spent 2 days sleeping 20 hours-the ongoing random fatigue, massive headaches and general malaise is brutal. But go for it, all **** lick each other.

I live in Victoria.

in july we had 700 cases a day, which was the same as the UK at the time.

We went full lockdown for months. Strong leadership, Everyone followed the rules, which were clear. Everyone knew what to do. a few idiots tried it on, got fined.

now it's day 16 with no new cases, everything is opening back up.

what's happening in the UK is baffling.

I think a lot of people are actually banking on the fact that if they do screw it up for someone else, by killing their elderly relatives, there could never really be any proof it was down to them.

very much so. i think if people could see that it was indeed they that had passed it on to someone and ended their life they may act differently, that would indeed be a heavy cross to bear. some, but not all, some really just dont GAS anyway.
but no, take a few chances, someone dies, "well, they could have caught that anywhere couldnt they, it definitely wasnt me".

All of that needs to be balanced against some of the other things it’s doing.

Removing social activities – stopping people from attending clubs, groups and activities.
Increasing feelings of depression and isolation.
Stripping away things that make life worth living for many.

Wouldn't you say that's what we've been trying to do though? We've gone from total freedom, through LD1, relaxing and then tightening restrictions and then into LD2. We have been trying to balance the need to protect the vulnerable alongside the needs of others.

we had middle class people hiding while the working classes brought them stuff

Just out of interest, what class would you define the many thousands of nhs staff who put themselves at risk every day to treat folks with covid..? Or our police force..or school teachers..

Jim’s right, here in France they gave the causes of death for this year and Covid was at the bottom of the list of the five or six causes given. Cancer (150 000) was about four times the Covid rate

So he isn't right then, as that's clearly not "vanishingly small".

we had middle class people hiding while the working classes brought them stuff.

Wow. Got to be honest, that's ignorant on so many levels it's astonishing. I thought as a country we were beyond the working / middle / upper class thing.

I've worked the whole lockdown bringing food / PPE / pharmaceutical products in and out of the UK. Where do I fit in your Venn diagram - with the Amazon drivers or the doctors?

"Wouldn’t you say that’s what we’ve been trying to do though?"

It's not the impression that I get.
Policies seem to be guided mainly by scientists; by stats and graphs.
It's not that they're unimportant, just that there's no balance with more complex and messy side of things - impact on communities, society, mental health etc

What is the long term impact of a society in which everyone treats each other as a threat?
Where's that discussion?

Just out of interest, what class would you define the many thousands of nhs staff who put themselves at risk every day to treat folks with covid..? Or our police force..or school teachers..

Depemnds if you are using a marxist definition of class or a socio economic one 😉

What is their relationship to the means of production?

All of that needs to be balanced against some of the other things it’s doing.

Removing social activities – stopping people from attending clubs, groups and activities.
Increasing feelings of depression and isolation.
Stripping away things that make life worth living for many.

I said something like this in another thread. I, and I suspect many others feel like they’re “existing” and not much else.
All the things I like and look forward too are either cancelled or closed. I can’t see friends or family, I can eat and drink out, I can’t go on holiday, I can’t even attend outdoors running events which would give me something to train for.
These are trivial things but they are the things that make life worth living, the thing to look forward to, that we work towards.
What you’re left with is work (if you’re lucky enough to keep your job) and that’s about it.
And it’s fine to give those up if we knew how long we were giving them up for. But we don’t.
So people will stray and people will question things. And some will weigh that up against the risk to them and to others.
And in my opinion, getting annoyed with people meeting in a park is just ridiculous. Direct your anger to the government and to those who set policy. Not the couple who who’ve chosen to see their grandkids in the park.

All the things I like and look forward too are either cancelled or closed. I can’t see friends or family, I can eat and drink out, I can’t go on holiday, I can’t even attend outdoors running events which would give me something to train for.
These are trivial things but they are the things that make life worth living, the thing to look forward to, that we work towards.
What you’re left with is work (if you’re lucky enough to keep your job) and that’s about it.
And it’s fine to give those up if we knew how long we were giving them up for. But we don’t.

Well, if you're in England the lockdown is due to end in a few weeks. At that point, almost everything on your list is probably allowed, right?

Actually, just realised that, speaking from the SW, it is possible that your experience might have been much more difficult than mine.

what’s happening in the UK is baffling.

It really isn't. the North has been badly affected because we unlocked nationally whilst cases were high in that region. They grew at the same rate as the South, but from a much higher starting point.

Where do I fit in your Venn diagram – with the Amazon drivers or the doctors?

You know the answer to that already. OK you have to park in the nearby field (LHR) and not outside my house but... 😉

The notion is bobbins. People have done their best to work under a challenging situation. For some (hospitality, shops) that was not possible and it is society's job to take care of them. I'm part of that society. I expect HMG to use my taxes for that purpose.

Why is it that it’s only Daily Mail types who seem to be talking about some pretty reasonable issues?

We talked about it a lot on here, and with my non Daily Mail reading friends and colleagues.

Most seem to accept that the alternative of 200,000 additional deaths in the next 6 months is even less palatable.

All the things I like and look forward too are either cancelled or closed. I can’t see friends or family, I can eat and drink out, I can’t go on holiday, I can’t even attend outdoors running events which would give me something to train for.
These are trivial things but they are the things that make life worth living, the thing to look forward to, that we work towards.
What you’re left with is work (if you’re lucky enough to keep your job) and that’s about it.
And it’s fine to give those up if we knew how long we were giving them up for. But we don’t.

All this moaning about the hardships of covid life......I do wonder how we would manage if something properly horrible happened like a world war scenario with conscription and bombing of civilian areas. I'm not sure we have the minerals for it in 2020. Maybe we are all too attuned to our mental welfare to manage a bit of short/medium term knuckling down.

Well, if you’re in England the lockdown is due to end in a few weeks. At that point, almost everything on your list is probably allowed, right?

not really. We’ll likely come out in Tier 3. So bars and restaurants closed, no way races will be allowed and I can still o to see small amounts of family.
As I say, I get it, it needs to happen, but tell us how long for so we at least have something to aim at.

but tell us how long for so we at least have something to aim at.

2H2021. Maybe I'll be back in training for those races.

It really isn’t

I mean, I understand what is happening, but why it is happening is baffling.

It's not rocket science. Everyone sit in to reduce community transmission. But it seems the English are thick as mince.

English are thick as mince exceptional

FTFY

I’m not sure we have the minerals for it in 2020. Maybe we are all too attuned to our mental welfare to manage a bit of short/medium term knuckling down.

Absolutely no ****ing chance. The irony being that a lot of those bleating about 'rights' and getting all Daily Maily about it are also those who venerate the sacrifices 'we* made during the war'.

*Well, their parents' generation, but it sounds more convincing if they pretend it was them.

Yes there is a lot of bleating about rights these days without reflecting on their partner, responsibilities. Chief among these being the responsibility to uphold other peoples' rights. Which right now equates to the right to stay alive.

All the things I like and look forward too are either cancelled or closed. I can’t see friends or family, I can eat and drink out, I can’t go on holiday, I can’t even attend outdoors running events which would give me something to train for.
These are trivial things but they are the things that make life worth living, the thing to look forward to, that we work towards.
What you’re left with is work (if you’re lucky enough to keep your job) and that’s about it.
And it’s fine to give those up if we knew how long we were giving them up for. But we don’t.

You poor thing.

I'm hearing talk of rising hostility towards the large numbers of mtbers heading into Peebles, am I am genuinely worried that some form of direct action is in the offing..

I really, really wish I was joking

I’m hearing talk of rising hostility towards the large numbers of mtbers heading into Peebles, am I am genuinely worried that some form of direct action is in the offing..

I really, really wish I was joking

And that will be another feature of Lockdown I reappearing in Lockdown II. Namely people with an existing axe to grind using covid/lockdown to justify being pricks.

Maybe covid is a message to humankind - stop being pricks.

Maybe covid is a message to humankind – stop being pricks.

To be fair, Glentress and Innerleithen carparks are overflowing every weekend despite the five mile rule (from your local area).

Its totally taking the piss, and massively exaggerating any existing gripes.

You poor thing.

I'm not talking about OP but generally, do you think that levels of depression and suicide should be factored into any decisions about COVID-19 related restrictions? Do you think some avoidable deaths are more important than others?

I’m not talking about OP but generally, do you think that levels of depression and suicide should be factored into any decisions about COVID-19 related restrictions? Do you think some avoidable deaths are more important than others?

Levels of suicide are unlikely to involve 200,000 dead in the next 6 months. Letting Covid run riot might.*

I get the mental health problem of Covid. I've been off the meds for over a year but there's half a packet at the back of the cupboard still in date and believe me it's been tempting just to calm the mind again.

Resilience is another of the R words we need to work on as a result of the pandemic, along with Rights and Responsibilities.

*Edit - suicides in the UK are around 6,500 a year. Shocking as that is, it's a lot less than 200,000 even with my shonky maths.

I’m not talking about OP but generally, do you think that levels of depression and suicide should be factored into any decisions about COVID-19 related restrictions? Do you think some avoidable deaths are more important than others?

I like you. You’re a “feelings” guy.

At the risk of repeating myself, you can't catch suicide.

I’m not talking about OP but generally, do you think that levels of depression and suicide should be factored into any decisions about COVID-19 related restrictions? Do you think some avoidable deaths are more important than others?

They undoubtedly are, along with a large number of other factors...

At the risk of repeating myself, you can’t catch suicide.

What's the relevance of that?

There are things you can do to mitigate the risks of suicide and depression, just as there are with an infectious disease.

And if the two are linked, it seems reasonable to take them both into account, rather than dismissively joke about one and fixate on the other.

But mental health is being taken into account. It's been talked about at loads of the press conferences and highlighted as related to a lot of decision making on the level of restrictions.

All this moaning about the hardships of covid life……I do wonder how we would manage if something properly horrible happened like a world war scenario with conscription and bombing of civilian areas. I’m not sure we have the minerals for it in 2020. Maybe we are all too attuned to our mental welfare to manage a bit of short/medium term knuckling down.

They're completely different things. During the war (which both my parents were in) there were significant opportunities for social interaction. This now means no contact at all with other people.
An invisible killer of generations.
I haven't seen my elderly parents since February, I may never see my mother alive again. My aunt died with C-19 just after Easter, my partner's aunt died of it in May, a good friend's father died of it in June.
If we've learnt nothing over the last 9 months it's that social contract is paramount, as humans we can learn to suffer, we can put up with physical hardship, but being cut off from physical interaction is hugely destructive.
It's not that simple as what you've said, and unless you're over 85 you didn't experience the war, so, TBH what you wrote is trite and meaningless.

Wrong thread

It’s not that simple as what you’ve said, and unless you’re over 85 you didn’t experience the war, so, TBH what you wrote is trite and meaningless.

And of course neither did you 🙂 I have however served in a war zone. You? I don't remember the social interaction being too amazeballs in that one.

Given the choice between being stuck in my own home with nothing but Zoom to video call friends and family; literally more on demand TV that any human could consume; plentiful food (though not toilet roll at times granted!) and the opportunity to get out and exercise daily or being conscripted and fighting for months on end in a foreign country not knowing if your family were safe at home I think I know which I would go for.

Not saying this situation has not got it's hardships but when we get to the point that we are fretting about not having running races to be entered it's time to have a word with ourselves.

Yeah..... I'm going to post this again:

bigrich

I live in Victoria.

in july we had 700 cases a day, which was the same as the UK at the time.

We went full lockdown for months. Strong leadership, Everyone followed the rules, which were clear. Everyone knew what to do. a few idiots tried it on, got fined.

now it’s day 16 with no new cases, everything is opening back up.

what’s happening in the UK is baffling.

Victoria (Melbourne) had the same case numbers as the UK back in July, but took EFFECTIVE steps to stop the spread of the virus. So effective, that they have now had 16 days with no locally acquired cases, and no deaths. If you want to see what an effective lockdown is.... the Victorians have literally written the book on it.

It amazes me how little people in the UK are paying attention to what's going on elsewhere - I guess demonstrated by the lack of response to the above post.

What’s the relevance of that?

Exactly my point.

And if the two are linked, it seems reasonable to take them both into account, rather than dismissively joke about one and fixate on the other.

I never meant to be dismissive.

I'm struggling mentally, this whole situation has robbed me of the one tangible thing that salvaged me from, well, let's say 'unpleasantness' a couple of years back. And apologies if that attitude spills into the forum occasionally, I do try so very hard not to let that happen. But I have to swallow it all down for the greater good, there's plenty worse off in the world than me.

For all that I may come across as a grumpy argumentative prick, please believe that I'm trying. I'm holding on by my fingernails, I'm arrogantly perhaps trying to make the world a better place, and I'm trying to make this little corner of the Internet a better place also.

Eh.

I should probably delete all that because I don't do Personal but bugger it. I'm a zombie and I'm going to bed.

Thanks Cougar.

It amazes me how little people in the UK are paying attention to what’s going on elsewhere – I guess demonstrated by the lack of response to the above post.

We’re “World Beating” in all regards… so why look to what works in other countries?

My sister lives in Victoria, it's pretty awesome what they've achieved. I don't know that it's directly comparable to the UK, but definitely frustrating that it's ignored. Or worse, dismissed out of hand as impossible.

All this moaning about the hardships of covid life……I do wonder how we would manage if something properly horrible happened like a world war scenario with conscription and bombing of civilian areas. I’m not sure we have the minerals for it in 2020. Maybe we are all too attuned to our mental welfare to manage a bit of short/medium term knuckling down.

100% this I'm afraid. 'I can't go to the pub, I can't enter running races, I can't go on a foreign holiday'...boo xxxing hoo... these are miniscule problems compared to what many people face every single day.

I have mental health issues, I have anxiety issues, and I live on my own and haven't seen most of my mates in months. I'm not going to bleat about it however as I'm aware many many people are in far worse positions than me... and whilst in 6 months time my life will hopefully be back to normal, the 50000 folks that have died, plus many more whom have lost loved ones, won't have that luxury.

My sister lives in Victoria, it’s pretty awesome what they’ve achieved.

Babies dieing because they can't be taken across state borders for heart surgery. Awesome!

https://twitter.com/9newsaus/status/1318632532716457986

We’re “World Beating” in all regards… so why look to what works in other countries?

I'm afraid, it does rather look like "exceptionalism" from where I am sitting.

The Victorian lockdown was very severe, and their Premier took a huge amount of stick for it at the time - but it has worked spectacularly well.

Unfortunately, the window of opportunity for that action (with such success) has long since passed...... it was July BTW, but that was when the UK was being told to go on holiday, visit their local pub/restaurant etc. Bigrich (I'm sure) and I were looking at what was happening in the UK in absolute horror.

In all honesty - this is the first time I've looked at my local politician (state governor in this case) and thought: "fair play, you're doing a great job".

Babies dieing because they can’t be taken across state borders for heart surgery. Awesome!

Granted, that's shit, but obviously not as shit as the 51000 extra deaths we've had in the UK.

Is going on a foreign holiday to somewhere with a lower case rate than ours (which is most of the world at the moment) actually a bad thing to do from a transmission in the UK perspective? You're less likely to catch it than whilst here, and there is zero chance of spreading it to other people in the UK for two weeks if you're not in the country..

Babies dieing because they can’t be taken across state borders for heart surgery. Awesome!

Absolutely tragic for sure, and hugely preventable/unnecessary.

600 COVID deaths in the UK on Wednesday last week alone

I should probably delete all that because I don’t do Personal but bugger it.

Nah, I think it's healthy to talk about this stuff.
Wasn't having a go, just challenging some of the 'man up' style responses to somebody who expressed something similar.

and they couldn't be transferred interstate because of travel restrictions

< narrator > “There were no interstate travel restrictions applying to these patients.”

It’s a tragic story, but the headlines don’t match the tragedy. Both States said that there were no restrictions on moving them from SA to Victoria… the investigation is for a reason… it’s not clear what went wrong, and warnings about this happening go back to before the pandemic.

Is going on a foreign holiday to somewhere with a lower case rate than ours (which is most of the world at the moment) actually a bad thing to do from a transmission in the UK perspective?

Will you fly your private helicopter back? Or do you have some other cunning way of maintaining social distancing on your journey?

You’re less likely to catch it than whilst here, and there is zero chance of spreading it to other people in the UK for two weeks if you’re not in the country..

But will you quarantine - and I mean REALLY quarantine - for two weeks on your return to the UK, just in case. That was when cases began to rise in the summer, people going on holiday and people thinking "eat out to help out" meant relaxation of social distancing rules. And I suspect there was a big overlap between those two groups.

Then the schools and unis went back.

What Victoria did was fantastic, as was New Zealand. It's what we should have done in March. Sadly, the opportunity, and 50,000+ people, were missed.

I’m hearing talk of rising hostility towards the large numbers of mtbers heading into Peebles, am I am genuinely worried that some form of direct action is in the offing..

I turned down the chance to go with a group of friends last week, It started out as 3 friends going in two cars - just about acceptable but ended up as 7 people from 6 households. I said no. this is people who generally have been following the rules. I am not impressed

So we've established blatant lockdown cheats are unfeeling monsters. What about discreet lockdown cheats?

At the risk of repeating myself, you can’t catch suicide.

No, but you can drink the Kool-Aid.... 🤪

What's that even supposed to mean?

Is going on a foreign holiday to somewhere with a lower case rate than ours (which is most of the world at the moment) actually a bad thing to do from a transmission in the UK perspective?

It's not great from a 'transmission in where you're going to' perspective.

But no, it's all about us. Again. Start thinking past the end of your nose.

What’s that even supposed to mean?

I think it's a ref to the Jonestown Massacre, where almost a thousand cult members were convinced (ish) by Jim Jones to drink poisoned Cool-aid.

I watched the documentary a while ago - it was truely shocking, widely used as an example of mass suicide

Is going on a foreign holiday to somewhere with a lower case rate than ours

It's not just the destination, it's getting there. Airports contain people from many destinations, planes are ideal places to catch it.

Anyway it's rule number one. I do wonder what would happen if we a had a really serious national crisis that meant a lot more than people's 2nd holiday was banned. How would people cope?