MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Such phanies the 4 rescued wearing trainers, no maps, ice picks and no commonsense. A bit like the surfer getting battered by the waves over the weekend, I'm guessing he or she survived
They're very lucky phanies. Have witnessed this first hand how conditions in the valley are pleasant but the top of the mountain is full on winter, and that's without a storm blowing through.
It's just ignorance. It's the cause of everything wrong in the world today, Brexit, racism ...
Phoolish phuds.
I do find this a bit conflicting, on one hand I don't think there should be a ban on anyone heading out into the hills at any time, a more experienced group probably wouldn't head out in those conditions anyway, but then there are phanies like this who do. Dunno the answer...
Well done to the crews though, they truly are heroes without capes.
Some people made a silly and potentially fatal mistake. Can we just accept that and not degenerate into slagging them off?
"Three of the guys were in trainers! They were about 150 metres down into Coire Eoghainn on steep ice and if they had slipped or gone down any further consequences could have far more serious."
Possibly from the same gene pool as the Hastings surfer.
Can we just accept that
Not really. In days gone by Darwinism would have sorted this out. They are just making the population worse.
Have they not seen Idiocracy?
Can we just accept that
No because they are putting others lives at risk to rescue their own when the situation was completely avoidable with even a little bit of thought. Either don't do it or go prepared.
Can we just accept that and not degenerate into slagging them off?
But what they did was incredibly dangerous - it would be dangerous enough going up dressed like that on a sunny day in spring, but during one of the biggest storms we've had in recent years was pure idiocy and they deserve all the slagging off they get.
What the **** is an ice pick?
You've been reading too much Daily Mail. 😉
Not really.
I feared as much. The lure of low hanging fruit for a slagging is more than many people can resist. I guess it makes people feel better about themselves.
In days gone by Darwinism would have sorted this out.
Natural selection you mean.
You could go all Swiss and make it law that everyone has appropriate personal insurance.
Then phannyish behaviour/decisions are not inconveniencing anyone, and creates a new sustainable business out of what is currently a charitable affair staffed by total hero's.
You'd also need to remove any humanity from your soul, but it seems to work for the Naz... sorry.. Swiss.
No because they are putting others lives at risk to rescue their own when the situation
And yet the people who 'risk their lives' to rescue them are overwhelmingly non-judgemental of the individuals. They might be critical of their decisions to help educate others but they certainly don't indulge in personal attacks on them. It's an important distinction I think.
The Ben is known for it. In June 1997 Mrs Gti and I climbed it via Coire Leis on our honeymoon and on the top was a woman in a summer frock, carrying a shopping bag, slipping around the snowfield in sandals. Coming back down we caught up with a woman in high-heeded sandals, crying, teetering down, her feet red and bleeding. The boyfriend was standing by impatiently saying "Whasamatter? Don't you like the shoes?" He got a proper mouthful in return so we hurried on down.
I'm a bit confused by all this- I accept that people make mistakes with stuff like this on a nice day, even in winter, and to a large degree rescue is there for this reasons- most folk in trouble have made a mistake of some sort or other, and it's, imo, not necessary to judge.
But, given the weather of the last couple of days, and the warnings given out, I genuinely can't understand how people so ill-equipped could have ventured out. In my books, it's negligence, not a mistake.
I did though have the half thought that they could have been runners, but surely not...
The MRT are certainly none too pleased with this group.
And yet the people who ‘risk their lives’ to rescue them are overwhelmingly non-judgemental of the individuals.
Well, in their public statements, anyway. They don't want to discourage people who have made stupid and dangerous mistakes from calling them out.
Can't even begin to contemplate how awful conditions up there were.
if they were wearing arcteryx then it would have all been fine
It happens all the time in the summer with people thinking it is a nice walk opposed to climbing a mountain and setting of without any food or water as well as unsuitable clothing and footwear.
a woman in a summer frock, carrying a shopping bag, slipping around the snowfield in sandals
Yeah, the last time I walked it (in late spring) it was a lovely day at the campsite, shorts and tees weather. We set off (fully prepared) and passed several groups of people clearly not prepared (sandals, trainers, light and/or inappropriate clothing etc). We reached the summit and stopped to eat lunch - it was only a few minutes before the wind chill had us zipping up and quickly moving off again. I have no idea how any of the people we passed got on but I would expect them to have not had pleasurable experiences.
i am with spin. Those rescued are inexperienced, made (really) poor decisions and should have excercised some commmon sense.
However to personally slag them off in public actually takes us down a dangerous route. Your 'black route with tasty jumps' is the Daily Wail's perfect 'irresponsible bikers injure themselves on extreme stunts in wilderness location'. Where do you draw the line on risk vs irresponsibility?
I am sure that the resue team will acted professionally and yet also had an opportunity with the police locally to make it clear to the rescued party that they could be charged with wasting police time and had risked lives.
Where do you draw the line on risk vs irresponsibility?
Err, the UK's highest mountain on the stormiest day of the year in trainers?
And yet the people who ‘risk their lives’ to rescue them are overwhelmingly non-judgemental of the individuals.
Admittedly I know only 3 active MRT members, but each of those considers people that do this to be utter ****wits.
If they’re being polite they refer to them as “statistics”
No ice picks? You'll be telling me they forgot the lemons next. How are you supposed to have a decent G&T on top of a mountain if you're not properly prepared? Disgraceful.
Err, the UK’s highest mountain on the stormiest day of the year in trainers?
What about a merely breezy day?
What about last weeks snow that is still lying?
What if the 'trainers' are my Salomon AlpX (Still bright yellow and trainers to look at)
What if they were aming for a lull in the wind, just as my family and I did on a very windy day in December?
Check this whit out - should we have been there?
What about the 45mph wind that this picture was taken in, pre-dawn, easily -15 windchill?
Judgements and decisions in the hills are not clear black and white I am afraid.
Valley and mountain conditions can be drastically different - I've been walking around Aviemore in a t-shirt then driven up to the Coire Cas car park and been unable to get out of the car due to the wind and driven snow. Goodness knows what it was like on the plateau that day.
Another day we turned up at the car park and promptly thought "we ain't going out in this!" and that was with full mountaineering kit. From memory it was the day the Ptarmigan burnt down in the 1980s. We ended up going for a low level walk.
Typing this whilst looking out of the window at a whiteout of a hailstorm!
And yet the people who ‘risk their lives’ to rescue them are overwhelmingly non-judgemental of the individuals.
Well, in their public statements, anyway. They don’t want to discourage people who have made stupid and dangerous mistakes from calling them out.
have a read of cairngorm john ..... the times they have made statements to the effect of idiot .... the backlash has been tremendous.
they have taken the stance of non advisory situation recovery specialists not suppliers of mandatory/minimum kit requirements.
They do how ever between their various members put on significant numbers of talks and training through out the uk.
There is a big difference between those with the skills knowledge and equipment to be out in the hills who make mistakes and those without those three things.
Personally Matt I wouldn't have been up there in those conditions. But thats no criticism of you
Your ‘black route with tasty jumps’ is the Daily Wail’s perfect ‘irresponsible bikers injure themselves on extreme stunts in wilderness location’. Where do you draw the line on risk vs irresponsibility?
If my mum decided to have a go down one of the inners black runs on her Pendleton hybrid without wearing a helmet, we'd all be equally judgemental when she inevitably broke herself.
If you want to do potentially dangerous stuff fair enough, but prepare accordingly and understand your limits. It won't always protect you but it minimises risk. Those that don't deserve ridicule imo.
to personally slag them off in public actually takes us down a dangerous route.
Not really. The numbers of Lakeland wanderers who need rescuing because 'it's gone dark' is staggering.
And it goes dark every day, so you wouldn't think it would be a surprise.
They said the group who were in blizzard conditions had "no ice axes, no crampons and as far as we are aware no maps". Three of them were wearing trainers.
I'm with the lynch mob on this occasion
There is a big difference between those with the skills knowledge and equipment to be out in the hills who make mistakes and those without those three things.
Said better than I would have managed to put it.
There is a big difference between those with the skills knowledge and equipment to be out in the hills who make mistakes and those without those three things.
arguably without the skills and knowledge - how do you know when the weathers gone too bad.
experience is the thing you gain just after you needed it most .
this is not a defence of them , merely an observation.
If my mum decided to have a go down one of the inners black runs on her Pendleton hybrid without wearing a helmet, we’d all be equally judgemental when she inevitably broke herself.
...Yeah, but I'd still think she was a bit awesome though.
arguably without the skills and knowledge – how do you know when the weathers gone too bad.
Under normal circumstances I might agree, but not on this occasion, unless Lochaber has just experienced completely different weather to the rest of the country.
Very true Trail Rat.
The real problem with diddies like this is that they do not have enough knowledge to as the right questions let alone sus out the answers
oh i totally agree that the guys were daft and wreckless
but my point being that marginal can turn into lethal within minutes.
Knowing when to make that call is a skill.
I’m with the lynch mob on this occasion
What purpose do you think personal attacks on these individuals serves?
how do you know when the weathers gone too bad.
When the news has been awash with warnings about a huge storm about to hit the entire country for the last week?
I think when you have a group of mates out, not wanting/daring to be the one to make the call might often be the issue. peer pressure or whatever
I have been up on the high tops in conditions many would think of as absurd and had a fine day - local weather varies tremendously.
If everytime there was a weather warning we all stayed off the hills we would miss many great days
For those wanting to slag these individuals off this might be worth a read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
you mean the storm that never came for large parts of the country. spent the whole weekend outside without feeling the danger of the "storm"
what you have witnessed there is london centric news and that scaremongering of constantly naming a bit of wind normalises the news and makes actual storms be ignored.
remember if these people have not been up a mountain before they wont realise that conditions are different up top as at the bottom.
remember if these people have not been up a mountain before they wont realise that conditions are different up top as at the bottom.
This.
I've spent 20 years introducing yoof to the delights of adventure in the outdoors. Until you actually experience something, everything is just edited and stabilised GoPro footage of the gnar under blue skies from the comfort of your heated lounge and sofa.
Yes these folk were stupid to go. Yes they made really daft decisions, days or weeks before they got to that hill as well as on the hill.
Now if they are out again next week, then I'm happy to pick up a pitchfork.
They made a mistake. They were very lucky that there were people there to rescue them. I’m leaving the histrionics to the Daily Mail - where they belong.
Like everything in life, there's grey areas. Some people can't grasp this.
MRT Guys are awesome, god bless them.
The real problem with diddies like this is that they do not have enough knowledge to as the right questions let alone sus out the answers
Yep - if you don't know what you don't know...
Ice pick ooooooh and I read the dail mail aye right, did you pick on the Stranglers No More Heroes for using ice pick, no pun intended. Try chopping up logs with your ice axe, crampons and pitons. I cannot believe some folk are supporting anyone not doing a wee bit homework before heading up Ben Nevis whether February or even June
you mean the storm that never came for large parts of the country. spent the whole weekend outside without feeling the danger of the “storm”
Yet the conditions were particularly bad on the top of the highest mountain in the UK, as you'd expect during a particularly bad storm as had been in the news all week.
What the **** is an ice pick?
Ask Leon Trotsky. It made his ears burn.
do you cherry pick partial quotes to suit all your arguements. i covered your non point in the next two paragraphs.
Yep – if you don’t know what you don’t know…
"A little learning is a dangerous thing ;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again."
This was printed on the frontispiece of the book I (largely) taught myself to climb with, "Snow and Ice Climbing" by John Barry.
Much wisdom in those words and the rest of the poem if you can be bothered reading it!
Seek nae wisdom; leave nae word, common sense is tae absurd.
Bring nae extra food or gear; you winnae need them, dinnae fear!
Dinnae fuss if yiv nae skill, folk like ye are hard tae kill.
We beg o ye afore ye dee, pick a place that’s nae muckle high.
From the wall in Soulies bothy many years ago. I think there is a difference to the properly equipped climber or walker and these guys. It's about diminishing risk and they must have experienced how bad the weather was before making poor choices, in this case to carry on I suspect. But the Ben is a real fud magnet,and even the most basic description of it suggests it isn't easy, I cannot accept they hadn't read a thing about it before, so fuds. I would like to think they maybe would become a wee bit safer because of their experience. As for naming and shaming, err nah; where do you stop that? Who decides what is worthy of a photo highlighting stupidity?
Just in case you've not been paying attention, we are now regularly subject to storm warnings, hyped up by the media and given a new level of criticality by a fashion for naming them. We are advised not to travel "unless absolutely necessary". There was nothing over the past few days that wasn't a normal Winters day in the Scottish Highlands. If folk didn't go about their normal business on days like those the place would grind to a halt and be unliveable for a good chunk of the year.
Thus four made some stupid mistakes and it's easy to criticise them as a result but, as already mentioned, experience is that thing you only have after you first needed it. I can certainly think of of lots of stuff I've done that I'd not repeat or at least modify in light of the outcome. To go down the road of slagging them off opens the door to everyone who would freak out at the very idea of cyclists going on muddy, rocky, out of the way trails to have a go at the next of us to end up in A&E.
The biggest fannies evident today are those that can't even spell the word.
Yet the conditions were particularly bad on the top of the highest mountain in the UK, as you’d expect during a particularly bad storm as had been in the news all week.
Actually pretty normal winter conditions.
And not even a decent winter 🙂
Seek nae wisdom; leave nae word, common sense is tae absurd.
Bring nae extra food or gear; you winnae need them, dinnae fear!
Dinnae fuss if yiv nae skill, folk like ye are hard tae kill.
We beg o ye afore ye dee, pick a place that’s nae muckle high
Whilst I've a feeling it's possible that the above may have been meant ironically, I rather like it, and this has somewhat been my approach.
...one winter trip up Central Gully on Great End, uni climbing club, Feb and full frozen winter conditions, visibility not great and occasional squally snow fall. There were four of us in my party with two or three ice axes (no picks sadly so the cocktails were a bit warm), and I think just one or two pairs of crampons between us. One guy was wearing a binbag as he'd forgotten his cagoule. As we used to call them. We did have some rockclimbing kit. Deciding moment for me was before an utterly committing section one of the guys almost slid off the hill and was saved by being grabbed by another. I donated my ice axe and very dodgily backed off (do actually remember thinking of my girlfriend now wife who I was living with and at 25 thought 'I'm just too old for this'.
I scrambled up the much easier Band instead. Tried to find the top of central gully, but no emerging footprints or sign of anyone. Decided I'd time to do the ridge to scafell pike and tried to jog it - visibility had improved and there were a few folk about. Hard frozen snow and very slippy in walking boots no crampons but my ankles were good in those days. Then jogged back to great end, I dunno, an hour or so later, still no footprints and no sign.
So headed back down to the van expecting to find them. Nope. But half an hour or so later as it was getting dark and we were getting worried they appeared with tales of a true epic - having been stopped by a full on ice pitch they traversed out onto the butress and found a way up. I confess to feelings of envy that I'd missed out.
Moral of the story? I'm an idiot, obviously. Young men generally are total idiots, good for marching into battle, digging holes or jumping off things (citations available on youtube). It's obviously my role now to tut at this, and I need to subscribe to the daily mail.
As a general observation, from someone who regularly traverses the higher hills and mountains, most walkers seem to be pretty geared up, carrying rucksacks with spare clothing etc. Cyclists, on the other hand, generally seem to be under-prepared with tiny Camelbaks*. As for those bloody runners....
* I've a suspicion that the number of 2-wheeled numpties I bump into is only going to increase over the next few years as the gating factor of having to be fit and determined enough to get there is removed with electric assurance
I agree scotroutes.
I'd be reticent to introduce anything, culture of slagging off or making folk 'pay' for mistakes included, that introduced a barrier to getting into the hills.
That said, eBikes, creekboats, easy access to amazing kit etc is eroding some of the barriers that have been in place for a hundred years or more...
2-wheeled numpties
Local gravel ride weekend before last (Pockstones) tyre blew out perhaps a mile from the road down to the washburn. Slight rain, strong wind and I was also wet from the ford if anyone knows it. Managed to seal the small hole with a gel wrapper and a bang a new inner in at low pressure to get home, but it was touch and go whether I should jog off, speed you lose heat in those conditions is always startling, but couldn't think of anywhere to shelter so made the repair on the hill. Was shivering for the rest of the ride and longing for uphill sections to warm up a bit. Should've left my 3 peaks bivvy bag taped to the saddle. Sorry, another cool story. What I mean is that I agree.
a mate and myself went up Cadir Idris during beast from the east a couple of years ago. It's not Ben Nevis I know but it was still pretty brutal. It was -6 in the car park and probably about -22 on the top. We knew what we were getting into and made sure we were well prepared for it, and my mate has excellent knowledge of the mountain having been climbing it regularly for about 15years.
I'd take a hard-nosed approach ... if you need rescuing due to being ill-prepared, under-equipped and just plain stupid then you'll be hit where it hurts. In the pocket. Furthermore, it doesn't sit well with me that the public donate to mountain rescue and other rescue services that, however you dress it up, are effectively "enabling" stupidity and lack of personal responsibility.
Dons tinfoil hat and heads for the bunker.
And yet, every MR team will tell you that they don't want that. Maybe listen to the experts on this?
Tax them!!!!
**** off.
One of my Dad’s mates was rescued off the Ben a few years back by helicopter. He had all the kit and experience.
I was up in the lakes couple of weeks back. Valleys were not that windy/bad conditions. Up top it was ferocious winds/cold/hammering it down. Couple of lads up there in designer trainers, track suits and thin jackets. They nearly ran off a cliff in a rush to get down they were that cold. I think they learnt a lesson that day.
Perhaps there should be a requirement to repay a proportion of the costs involved in their rescue. It might force people into pro-active planning/kit requirements thinking, or at the very least would reimburse the MTN rescue so they themselves could invest in more resources.
Just to say, I'd feel the same if I had to be rescued by the Air Ambulance for being an idiot on my bike.
If you think MRT's are simply enabling stupidity, then presumably you don't donate to them, or won't in future. Also, if they are going to start charging then there will be no need to fund raise presumably. Of course, they would have to charge everyone, since stupidity is subjective. Even the best equipped and experienced winter climber would be seen as stupid in some peoples eyes.
I wonder if MRT charged the unprepared climbers people might be less inclined to go out in conditions they're not prepared for?
Surely it's hard to defend people needing to be rescued if they're not taking every precaution to keep themselves safe. Sure bad things can happen to even the most experienced of climbers etc, but having to save people from Ben Nevis wearing trainers during a massively publisised storm, or that idiot surfer is just stretching the realms of stupidity. Maybe people might take notice when a rescue team get wiped out, but I doubt it.
And yet, every MR team will tell you that they don’t want that. Maybe listen to the experts on this?
@scotroutes am certainly curious to know more, where should I look please?
I wonder if MRT charged the unprepared climbers people might be less inclined to go out in conditions they’re not prepared for?
I doubt it (unless they were a particularly special kind of stupid). Surely someone who tries to climb a mountain in the middle of winter without the proper equipment doesn't think 'if I get into trouble someone will save me'. Surely they are thinking 'nope, it's only a big hill, I'll be fine'.
@nobeerinthefridge who are you replying to?
@everyonesayingtaxthem id imagine - certainly how it reads.
who decides what was stupid and what was misfortune ?
What Terry says, everyone on here who wants folk to pay. So yes, including you.
who decides what was stupid and what was misfortune ?
Being properly prepared for mountain walking and needing to be rescued: Misfortune
Not being properly prepared for mountain walking and needing to be rescued: Stupid
We could introduce a points system whereby you get a discount for every piece of equipment you carry, the types of boots you wear and whether or not you've had specialist training.
On fact, we could extend this to all emergency services. Speeding? Wrong tyres? Pay up. Overweight? smoker? Get the wallet out.
Oh do stop it scotroutes!
Being properly prepared for mountain walking and needing to be rescued: Misfortune
Not being properly prepared for mountain walking and needing to be rescued: Stupid
very good - now back in the real world.
what about if im carrying all the kit but im unfit ? is that chargable ? what about if ive made a bad judgement about not eating enough - although i have lots of food in my bag. chragable ?
Not really a black and white situation - and as i said who makes that call .
Oh. Here's a good one. Had a road accident whilst driving in cold weather without winter tyres? Hope you've got good health insurance.