You’re right, some people are happy to moan about nobody else doing it but then pitch a fit at something different!
It most likely is habit/tradition, and it might just be because I’m younger than a 30-year-served leader but tbh the beginning part of the promise is more important to me rather than saying God when you don’t believe. We spend a lot of time in sessions pointing out the “kind and helpful” aspect but not so much the God bit. It’s also framed more in a “spiritual” term than a religious one.
Out of interest if you think the King/God aspect might put off adults to become leaders, what would you do to encourage them? Would be really helpful for us to pinch some ideas! 🤣
My daughters said/ will say the 'our world' promise. It was the only one offered. I assumed beavers/ scouting had modernised. Maybe croydon is enlightened more than I thought.
I'm quite at ease with people saying different things though, they should say something meaningful to them. For everyone else is there demonstrations of commitment that matters.... or it does to me as part of the audience, not the actual words.
I wouldn’t get hung up on the wording. I’m an atheist republican. It’s just words.
The important thing is to be there for yourself, the kids, the troop, and the other leaders. If somebody wants to help because they have something to offer then join in.
As an atheist republican who is also a Scouts Trustee all the God & king stuff just looks like nonsense. I don't think the kids think about it for more than a second after saying it, as long as they get to go run around in the mud and jump in the lake.
I wouldn't get hung up about it, I haven't met a single leader who gives a monkeys about the religion or monarchy. It's about groups of adults and teenagers giving up loads of spare time so that kids can have fun and grow into decent people. It's all bloody brilliant and we desperately need more volunteers.
It’s just words.
so that kids can have fun and grow into decent people
Right, my final thoughts on it. I agree that one of the (laudable) aims is to help the kids grow into decent people by promoting behaviours and values that are, well, decent, and like I said above, the scout law does pretty much that.
In that vein, one of things I talk to the Scouts about when they make their promise is the "on my honour" bit, and that your honour is the respect that you earn from being a decent person, and one of the main qualities of being a decent person is that you keep your promises.
So, we can't therefore say that to them, and then say that the Scout promise is "just words". We either have one that means something to everyone that takes it, or we don't
We have a set of values about honour, honesty and decency and respect. Respect for yourself, respect for your mates, respect for your leaders and respect for your kit. These are the important bits in my view. God and The King if you like, but honour, honesty, decency and respect first.
What HtS says makes sense to me.
I wouldn’t get hung up about it, I haven’t met a single leader who gives a monkeys about the religion or monarchy. … It’s all bloody brilliant and we desperately need more volunteers.
of course you haven’t - all the leaders are people who have either no objection or do object but don’t mind enough to make a fuss. It’s survivor bias, so you’ve no idea how many potential leaders you lose just from the perception of those words. If you meant in all your time in scouting nobody has ever tried to promote religious or monarchy aspects I’m a wee bit surprised. We just had a St George’s day parade (which given we are in Scotland seemed odd till it was explained he was the Patron Saint of Scouting!). And I’m sure if any district was to get a royal visit there would be much excitement. Our kids all got a new badge to commemorate the coronation.
Out of interest if you think the King/God aspect might put off adults to become leaders, what would you do to encourage them? Would be really helpful for us to pinch some ideas! 🤣
well I *should* be good reference point for that question. I have volunteered with them but I bailed out at the point they wanted me to become a leader. The obvious thing is to change the promise. I appreciate that the rituals are an important part of scouting and taking them away would probably be like getting rid of the uniform - but they can definitely be modernised. Having never been a scout the idea of wearing a necker isn’t something I get excited about either, although that would have been less significant. fwiw the other things that group (and again others may be better) do wrong with volunteers/leaders is as soon as you show a modicum of interest they leap, I can see how much time others put in - you need to have a lot of discipline to say no. But they also seem to wait till they are desparate before they ask for help.
that’s on top of all the usual headaches of being a scout leader like being able to get to the hall at the right time every week; ideally not having your own kid in the group; etc; and there’s always one leader who treats the parents like they are the 10 yr old kids. I see the same with some teachers - they seem unable to switch mode - that would be kind of patronising if they were a leader you were working alongside.
Finally I think you and IHN wrote a lot of positive things about the Scout Law and Promise and what Scouts were committing to. I’d possibly reflect that not every teenager seems to manage that and from what I’ve seen there doesn’t seem to be any real sanction when individuals act like nobs. Obviously some groups will be better at this than others, and some leaders will be better at it too.
Now I spent several years as “hall keeper” letting other groups into/out of the hall, dealing with the burglar alarm going off, removing dead mice, fixing door locks, light bulbs etc. and I am lined up to go and help a neighbouring group with a particular area I have a little expertise in come September, so it’s not I don’t want to help.
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We are a group nominally attached to a church, so God is our default promise. We don't ever go - Remembrance service is so busy there isn’t room for us, so we run a pop up tea room in the village hall to raise funds for the British Legion after the parade.
St George's Day is a district activity, but no longer at church. Our Christmas activity is now an open air campfire rather a church carol concert.
It takes a long time to turn an oil tanker, and volunteers with the right approach to do do so. I've never volunteered for any group because I thought it was perfect, I do it because I think it needs improving and modernising.
My kids went to a CofE primary school, church based Scout and Guide groups, and one has just finished a Catholic secondary school. Both are non-religious republicans, and I suspect that the independence and self reliance they got from Scouts and Guides is a factor in that.
"Broken any of the ten commandments lately? How about any laws? Still want to join the pack? Excellent".
We have used the alternate promise, and given the choice it's the one I'd go for but it really doesn't matter much. Last week I invested some Cubs and made them promise to the Queen until someone pointed out she dead. Force of habit.
I helped out with a Scout troop in Canada for a while and they saluted the Canadian flag which I didn't, because I'm not Canadian. That was a dick move in retrospect.
Last week I invested some Cubs and made them promise to the Queen until someone pointed out she dead. Force of habit.
I think a lot of investitures have been including doing duty to the Quing for a while now 🙂
I’m not sure the promise issue for adults is as big a factor as you think poly, although I’ve been wrong before! And that might just be down here in the sunny South West.
Most of the reasons I hear from adults for not becoming uniformed is the amount of time commitment, perceived lack of skill/ability/nothing to give, “fear” of responsibility and requirement for training.
Maybe in other areas of the country the perception is a major factor.
Ive been a Cub leader for about 3 years now ( I came thru cubs, scouts etc then took a break until I had kids of my own and got roped in)
The law/promise bit is something I barely think about, for the cubs a 5 minute investiture ceremony and theyve pretty much forgotten it!
Im far busier planning other stuff to worry about that, next week we have a hike ive just plotted the route for, my eldest is bivvying out with scouts this weekend, I have a district beaver camp Im helping out & with my youngest going in a few weeks, we have our AGM, BBQ & waterfight in the last week of term and Im just finalising the email for a 20k gravel ride for the first week of the summer holidays
I've just completed an adult information form to hand back tonight as I take my daughters along to beavers. I guess that means I've volunteered.
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Unpacked from camp last night. Tents all checked, swept and put away. Unclaimed items of underwear ceremoniously stapled to the notice board. Bit of a de-brief about what went right and what could have been done better. Ate all of the crisps that will go out of date before the next camp. Older ones spent the night expedition planning. Played a game of “Dave Ball”.
Big event coming up on Saturday morning. If we don’t win (again) the kids will be gutted! No pressure then eh?
Anyone North West based should keep an eye out for the Bispham Hall Chariot Race. Dates should be out soon.
Well done and thank you. Explorer section leader and Cub assistant leader here, yes as has been said above, some things are a pain in the whatever but watching young people overcome self doubt, learn, form life long friendships and apply skills you've helped them learn is priceless. Seeing those young people being able to teach those skills to others makes me really proud. We're currently trying to recruit more leaders from our parent group and having no joy.
We have a parent rota which is a good way of a) getting to know them and b) recruiting new assistants and potential leaders. What we don't have is a functioning exec but that's another story.
I’ve just completed an adult information form to hand back tonight as I take my daughters along to beavers. I guess that means I’ve volunteered.
Balanced at the top of the slippery slope...
We have a parent rota which is a good way of a) getting to know them and b) recruiting new assistants and potential leaders. What we don’t have is a functioning exec but that’s another story.
I used to dread my turn on the parent rota, and realised I wasn’t cut out to be a unit leader. Turns out I'm ok at exec/trustee stuff, wearing hiviz to marshall events and washing up at fundraising tea rooms!
They also serve who only stand and wait marshall washing up.
Just been informed I've volunteered to do the cub camp next weekend. There's only me and one other parent with current DBS. So we're screwed! Ah well am sure ot will be "entertaining"!
Escape Rammy done! As defending Champions I had high hopes, but we were bloody awful and got caught 5 times. Whatever, the kids had a hoot although some of them may not have agreed at the time.
https://www.strava.com/activities/9367431718
Scouting really is superb. 200 hundred kids getting chased for 3 hours in a 10km game of hide and seek. Where else could you do that?
That’s taking manhunt to the next level!
Went mountain (*) biking with the group last night so combining 2 of my activities!
(* inasmuch that one can mountain bike in Kent!)
Got 7 of them through their Expedition over the weekend which meant that 3 of them completed their Gold.
Weather was a bit too hot to send them over the moors with all of their kit, so the route was cut short and they only had to carry day sacks. When they got to camp they had to bivouac or use hammocks though. We couldn’t make it too easy for them!
This is why we do it!
This is why we do it!
Great result! 👍
LittleMissMC did her silver DofE expedition with Guides the weekend before, so glad she missed last weekend
Anyone at The Bevan Challenge next weekend?
Our “crack team” will be out doing the activities all day, so I’m hoping for some good weather so that I can site by the fire and read a book.
They are at Manchester Monopoly Run the weekend after, but I’m not involved.
Just spotted this thread. I've been a "Leader" now for a month - I have a daughter who didn't get on with Brownies and I'd thought about becoming a Cubs Leader, so she gets into Cubs too.
Its not like I remember it - less regimented (regimented was good) although that might be changing now we're moving indoors for the winter. Outdoors was cat herding. Its hard keeping them engaged - I noticed ADHD mentioned early in the thread - at least 4 from 21 are diagnosed or being assessed. No bad thing. Some kids just don't stop talking though, about anything and nothing. Whereas others don't say a peep. Its a learning curve for sure, and I'm sure will have satisfying moments at some point soon...
We had one kid who every now and then just wanted to sit under a table and make "beep" noises. Once I asked him why and he just said that he liked doing it. Which is fair enough.
I'm helping out at Cubs tonight. Hope I survive as I've got an awful cough thing. Lashings, working on the pioneer badge. Not done lashings before but akela sent me a YouTube and they both look very simple so if I can survive through the cough it should be OK.
Eldest daughter seems to be very happy in Cubs having moved up from the turquoise ninjas, she was invested a couple of weeks ago. Youngest daughter is now in beavers and said very quickly its become her favourite club! I'm definitely grateful for the scout group, it's helped both with friendships and confidence.
Oh and I'll try and count again tonight but when I did a quick count while watching my daughter's investiture, it seemed just over 50% girls at the cubs, beavers must be similar.
although that might be changing now we’re moving indoors for the winter. Outdoors was cat herding.
Ours just seem louder when they come inside, otherwise pretty much the same.
We’re about 2:1 boys to girls, but 4 out of 5 PLs are girls, and our team for The Bevan are all girls.
We’re just moving on our “enforcers” to Explorers. They are both girls. This has left a bit of a power vacuum, but see if you can guess the gender of the two that will probably step up and fill the void…
Heads up if you want a "quiet" activity.
Free Warhammer!!!
Been a warranted leader since 1972 (numerous roles) so I guess it's a worthwhile organisation to be involved in.
Good luck & thanks to all those who are doing their bit.
Thanks for the heads up Harry, I've passed the link on to akela.
I enjoyed it last night, and despite a temperature which had me dripping sweat, I think I was compus enough to help a six with some lashings.... although other then one lad who had clearly been practicing the efforts were.....'a good start' 🤣
A quick count and I made it about 10 girls from 29 or 30 Cubs last night so possibly not quite so even as I'd thought but good numbers I reckon.
We seem to run with 3-4 girls in each unit at a time, Squirrels through to Explorers.
They really seem to change the dynamics of a unit compared to when we have a year with an all male unit.
If anyone has any tips or advice on merging districts, I'm all ears....
We're pretty much 50/50 girls and boys, probably slightly more girls, that's in Scouts. Got a weekend camp in a couple of weeks that's seven girls and two boys.
We're struggling a bit to get them going camping, we rarely get double figures going out of a troop of over thirty Scouts. Anyone else had this?
We’re struggling a bit to get them going camping, we rarely get double figures going out of a troop of over thirty Scouts. Anyone else had this?
Could be a cost/lack of kit issue?
Is it seasonal/weather related? Maybe stay in huts this time of year, get them used to being away, then camp next year now.
Are camps clashing with other commitments - football, rugby, ballet etc?
Is it the kids not wanting to go or parents not wanting to let them - MrsMC struggles to get Guide parents to "let their little darlings out of sight/contact" - MrsMC takes a dim view on this!
I can only say what my kids group does. They get the beavers (and parents?) Used to a night away from home/ mum/ dad with a sleep over at the scout hut so familiar territory but great fun for them. Group camp was late May bh, camping, beavers for just 1 night, cubs and scouts 2. That had 35-40% of the beaver colony, maybe half the cubs, scouts not sure as no idea how many there are. Cubs are off for a camp but staying in huts at the approaching half term. I am only guessing but suspect there will be at least half the pack.
I can imagine the kit list being a burden for some, especially at the moment. I've become acutely aware even the uniform is expensive. With 2 girls that between them have started rainbows, Brownies, beavers, cubs and 2x girls brigade, I've been asked to spend about £200 on uniform in the last year. I'm all for uniform, but a sweatshirt or poloshirt that costs £18-23 rather than £6-9 simply because it says cubs/ beavers/ girls brigade on it is absurd and I've taken a stand. Plain bottle green sweatshirt and t, plain turquoise t, plain navy hoodies for girls brigade. Rainbows and Brownies uniforms are a p-take.
Got two events this weekend. Taking a team of 4 to the Beavan Challenge at Tawd Vale, hiking, canoeing, shooting and an assault course. Doing it "light" with one patrol box and hammocks. Beavan team are all PLs, and all girls.
The rest are at the Chariot Race at Bispham Hall, which will be like a military operation with trailers, event shelters and tons of other kit.
Glad I'm on the Beavan as packing the Chariot kit away in the mud will be a pain.
Anyone else North West based doing these?
Just stumbled into this chat as I reckoned there could be some similarities with bike club stuff and this kind of thing...apart from the various names for the groups, the issues aren't all that different.
I'm off to have a read of the full thing to see if there are any tips that can be gleaned from the wealth of experience here.
Wow, what an event the Beavan is! If you are Merseyside based you should look into it.
Not sure how us "Mancs" ended up there, and neither were the organisers, but they've asked us back next year.
Saturday is Manchester Monopoly Run. We're there with Scouts and Explorers but I'm getting the day off.
When on camp we keep the facebook updated with pictures of what they are up to
A good way of selling the camp & keeping clingy parents informed
We are also quite flexible about arriving late/ leaving early for other commitments
It is a bit frustrating we had 6 out of 36 cubs pull out just before the camp this weekend of glorious weather and plenty of fun activities
Sorry, just following up on the replies to my questions about getting more of the Scouts camping
When on camp we keep the facebook updated with pictures of what they are up to
A good way of selling the camp & keeping clingy parents informed
Yep, we do this
We are also quite flexible about arriving late/ leaving early for other commitments
Ditto
They get the beavers (and parents?) Used to a night away from home/ mum/ dad with a sleep over at the scout hut so familiar territory but great fun for them.
TBH I think this is the main issue. We're riding the wave of Scouts who never/rarely went camping as Cubs/Beavers because of Covid. So, they don't really know what to expect or whether they'll like it, and my impression is that the parents also have the apron strings tightened a bit too. Hopefully this will start to ease itself now.
I can imagine the kit list being a burden for some, especially at the moment.
We do make a point of saying that we don't want any child to miss out because of financial reasons, but no-one has ever come forward for help (although I guess that would be quite a thing to do, pride-wise). We do have spare kit (sleeping bags, mats etc) so maybe we should make a point of saying that we have stuff available to borrow if needs be.
We're lucky in that we have a history of camping in both Cubs and Scouts, so the kids know what they are letting themselves in for! We get a few that will never camp, ever, but usually we have pretty good attendance.
We try and keep the fees fixed at £35 for a weekend and £20 for a single night. Over the year this averages out.
On camp we upload loads of photos to the parent's WhatsApp group.
We do make a point of saying that we don’t want any child to miss out because of financial reasons, but no-one has ever come forward for help (although I guess that would be quite a thing to do, pride-wise). We do have spare kit (sleeping bags, mats etc) so maybe we should make a point of saying that we have stuff available to borrow if needs be.
I serve on the committee of a sports club. We operate essentially a hardship fund ("Athlete Support Grant") to help the least wealthy junior members go to some of the further away events but it has never been that well utilised. We spent a lot of time this year talking about rebranding it etc. The end conclusion was that the barrier to applying was far higher than we wanted it to be, with forms buried in an obscure part of the website, too many questions about what you wanted and why, and an implication that if we said no and you did it any way you must have been lying about "needing" the money. We flipped it round and asked the coaches to nominate people (they are encouraged to think about personal circumstances, athletic benefits, personal growth) and we then call them "club sponsored athletes". No stigma, no barrier to entry from a parent who might not be close to the club etc. Anecdotal feedback so far is it is much appreciated - I'm certain none of them would have come forward and said "would love to go but can't afford it", some would have made an excuse, or gone but at the detriment of something else (like a scout camp!). So I'd agree "saying you don't want to miss out for financial reasons" and actually removing the barrier are not the same thing.
Thanks Poly.
The only 'barrier' we have to help is speaking to one of the leaders in confidence, but I guess that in itself could be seen as a public admission of sorts of something they may not wish to be known. Part of the issue is also that we're based in a superficially comfortable area, but I have no doubt that there are parents in there that are only just managing to juggle their mortgage/car/credit card/Netflix/Disney+ etc payments and for whom the stigma of admitting that they are struggling may be even greater. However, it is does make it really hard to see who may need help and who doesn't.
Good point about barriers are not always obvious, and pride is an ossue of course - our group is in the "more affluent" part of the district, but we have parents having a sabbatical from paying subs, 2nd hand uniform available. We've also got more generous with our support for bigger international activities.
We'd sooner someone "miss" a couple of months subs if their young person can then do a camp or whatever - often the kids who benefit most.
Saturday is Manchester Monopoly Run. We’re there with Scouts and Explorers but I’m getting the day off.
Our Explorers are going, they and the leaders are very excited!
My daughter is getting presented with her Gold at the end of it. She doesn't know this. I'm not doing the event but I am going to sneak in at the end.
Our demographic is very mixed. We have kids from council estates and some that live on the same street as members of Elbow. Think we have quietly dropped subs for those that are struggling, but it doesn't filter down to my level as I don't need to know.
Also, an afternoon of bag packing in Morrisons can get us £800 ish, so we use that to subsidise events.
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i guess the DBS check is done then! Im at beavers tomorrow night with the 6yo as they were short handed... half termly badge awards so I get to be proud dad as well as help out 😁 when I realised that I looked down the rota and yep, now booked to help at beaver Christmas party and badge awards 😀
My 8yo cub is off to camp Friday..... thankfully they had chosen to use a bunk house and it looks like Babet will be clearing away Saturday so they won't need the Web feet and aqualung....I hope! Costing almost 3 times what you charge for a weekend Harry, we must up our game on fund raising perhaps.....I suspect 1st crystal palace would feel aggrieved if we went to sainsburys to pack bags as would the brownies/ guides who meet in the rooms above.....hmm.... the lidl might be on our patch 🤔
Any advice on driving a minibus for scouts? Eldest daughter is hoping to do Ten Tors, I have volunteered to help and drive a minibus if required. I have the relevant designation on my licence but the whole driving kids and for an organisation where the passengers are paying throws up lots of uncertainty.. Happy to get the qualification if required.
I’m one of the few leaders that drive minibuses for our group (joys of getting a licence when they added categories for the fun of it).
Double check with your groups GSL on the situation for clarity. When I asked, I was told that you’re not being recompensed for driving services, the group is being paid to cover the cost of the event ie transport, food, accommodation.
Some groups require drivers to undergo MIDAS training in addition to having the class on your licence.
