Beaver/Cub/Scout Volunteering

Not seen it myself yet. Camped up there back in 2021 and did raft building. Stayed in the permanent tented village.

Our kids had great fun watching the school DoE carrying far too much kit in their best trainers.

Our lot have an unofficial camp uniform of military styles and big bobble hats.

Anyone doing Shelterbox in Liverpool this weekend?

http://www.nwscoutsglobal.org.uk/

We've got 5 teams. 2 x Cubs, 2 x Scouts and 1 x Explorers.

We'll be wearing our very stylish green and orange 8th Prestwich hoodies.

It’s taken a while but last night I finally had my induction and got a neckerchief so guess I’m an actual volunteer now.

Felt a bit bad while doing the oath but couldn’t quite bring myself to let the local leader know I’m an atheist and a republican. Guess that doesn’t really matter though.

Throw yourself at it! It can be so rewarding.

Harry_the_Spider
Full Member
Throw yourself at it! It can be so rewarding

What he said, I’m a GSL it’s part maddening and very rewarding. If you’ve had a tough session look for the faces of the kids and think about the lives you’ve enriched.

It’s a very rewarding pastime.

Why is the search so bad? I was looking for this thread. Oh well, as I said elsewhere...

know there is anther thread about volunteering at clubs but….search is frankly **** and I absolutely must say this.

Holy Mary mother of God! In fact Mary, Joseph and the wee donkey! That was an eye opener! I volunteered to help at Beavers and do knots…. I’m going to have nightmares …..20 beavers all screaming, ‘is this it? Have I done it?’ While holding the biggest tightest not-a-reef-knot-granny-knot …. I need a beer!

I TAKE MY HAT OFF TO ALL WHO VOLUNTEER!

Felt a bit bad while doing the oath but couldn’t quite bring myself to let the local leader know I’m an atheist and a republican. Guess that doesn’t really matter though.

There's a version of the promise for atheists these days, so you could have said.

As for "do my duty to ... the King", well your duty can be whatever you feel your duty is. Same to God, really... I've always felt that as he doesn't exist, my duty to him is quite limited 😉

Always felt my duty was to "society", represented by the Queen (at the time) and God as kind of notional figureheads.

Just spent the weekend at Linnet Clough in Marple.

8 leaders + 37 kids.

Highlights: 10 of them got up at 3am on Saturday to do a 5km sunrise hike. Kid with ASD chucked herself down a zip line (twice). Badgers got in the tents causing some excitement and they took part in the biggest water fight that they will probably ever experience.

Excellent, if knackering, fun.

Badgers got in the tents causing some excitement

Ha, the good old Linnet Clough badgers, we've had similar excitement in the past 🙂

We were at Barnswood (between Macc and Leek) for our patrol competition camp. Great fun, and even better we came back with everything dry. Result!

Sun up at Mellor Cross was a good one. We made that optional, but pretty much all of the older kids came along.

Was up there at 10:00pm on the Friday night too checking that the terrain was OK for the RA!

Sounds super fun, well done.

With my eldest moving up to cubs in a few weeks,  and my almost 6yo about to be invested as a beaver,  I'll be volunteering a little bit more.   I'm planning to do a night at beavers at least once a term and the same at cubs, and it seems my (relative) skill with knots is in demand so I've said,  'let me know when you want to do knots and I'll help'.  I realise I've got a decent/ large amount of experience at quite a few outdoor pursuits, sailing,  mtb,  hill walking,  rock climbing and would feel quite confident helping with any of those activities however although I have done all of them quite a lot,  I've never bothered with any tickets/quals.  I'm considering speaking to Akela to offer myself for some of that  (sailing possibly as there is a local boating lake) if they will fund the tickets.  I need to be sure I'll actually have the time to do some stuff with the kids though first.... it might have to wait until the youngest (just turned 3) is another couple of years older before I would have much time and I don't want to have scouts pay high hundreds or more to get me to Rya instructor if I can't give back.

We tend to use the site instructors for climbing, axe throwing, archery and so on as they already have the permits and RAs in place.

Our leaders will get involved though as an additional pair of hands, crowd control or in the case of the zip line showing that it isn't as scary as it looks. I went off first, for demonstration purposes only you understand, not because I'm a big kid. Three other leaders had a go, some of them twice. Just to make sure.

We've got one Terrain Two permit holder in the group for going over "big stuff", but other than that we rely on site staff.

Was up there at 10:00pm on the Friday night too checking that the terrain was OK for the RA!

Ah, the good old RA. I did a bike ride with them last week, what I missed from the RA was "child falls off bike for no apparent reason" - we had one deck it on a flat, dry, straight piece of quiet lane. She didn't know what happened, there was genuinely no obvious cause. She was fine, no tears or anything, but had nice grazes on her shoulder, elbow, knee (and I'd guess hip). Parents were unbothered when we got back, she'd enjoyed it other than that, but next morning her wrist hurt so they took her to A&E. It was just a sprain, but the hospital trip means it's reportable to HQ. Smashing...

Oh, and it turns out that the section of canal we cycled along has giant hogweed on it, which could have been 'interesting'.

It's a good job that we did check out the Mellor Cross bit to be honest. A lot of erosion and the recent dry weather has made it a bit of a "scramble", so an RA "no no".

Found another route up round the back. Only a 50m detour, but best not to have to work it out at 3:30am with a load of kids.

 axe throwing

Tomahawks for throwing, not axes please.

We've got cover for air rifles, tomahawks & archery in our group- saves a fair bit on the cost not having to pay instructor fees, especially when it's run as a whole day activity.

Indeed and why I need to find out what the group prefer.  The idea wasn't mine though.  I work with a guy who was group leader at a nearby pack (until moving to Cornwall a year or more back.)  He told me that group did lots of kayaking and sailing because he did it.  However it seems there has been some club politics at the sailing club resulting in them putting prices up significantly for stuff they offer. He seemed to feel the cubs/scouts were disadvantaged by the change (and him no longer available locally to lead the stuff on the water instead of paying the sailing club).  I must have mentioned I've done a lot of sailing (although mine has been inshore and open ocean yachts,  I've not been in a dinghy for 25+ years) and hence he suggested I consider getting the rya instructor qual.

Always felt my duty was to “society”, represented by the Queen (at the time) and God as kind of notional figureheads.

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">
lots of people talk themselves around to it like that, but I have to say I’m not sure it’s the right answer - for an organisation that really wants to be inclusive.  It’s unlikely to change as those at the top of the organisation all have survivor bias as either people who think it’s good or think it’s insignificant.  My daughter took a wee bit of convincing (she joined as an explorer so was old enough and wise enough to know what she was saying) and I think if she’d been told this before she went along it might have stopped her.</span>

I don’t want to have scouts pay high hundreds or more to get me to Rya instructor if I can’t give back.

I considered this when my son was a sea scout (they mostly canoe not sail at that group).  I wasn’t even worried about the cash, and I already had some of the prerequisites to become an RYA dinghy instructor (eg you’ll need a powerboat certificate, a vhf certificate, a first aid certificate as well as being good at sailing).  I think to do it from “scratch” would take you every second weekend for a whole sailing season.   Then the scouts don’t automatically take that as proof of competence! (Which is a good thing in my opinion). But you will also need a sailing centre who will let you have access to the boats etc.  my conclusion was that to do that for a couple of weekends a year wasn’t worth the pain and the scouts would be better just paying professionals when they needed it.

They could be swearing allegiance to Dr Who, Minnie Mouse and Sponge Bob for all they care. All a bit meaningless in the circumstances.

The real loyalty is to their mates and the troop.

I went along to another groups weekend camp (local) on Saturday to run a tomahawk throwing range for them as they don’t have the kit/permit to do so. Free lunch for me, contacts made with another group and the cubs and scouts had a blast. Got chance to have a go at air rifle shooting too which I haven’t done in a while!
Currently planning a joint beavers/cubs summer camp to get my permit for that too.

They could be swearing allegiance to Dr Who, Minnie Mouse and Sponge Bob for all they care. All a bit meaningless in the circumstances.

Probably true at the beavers and cubs age.  Then they get to scouts and start to question stuff.  Our local groups seem to lose various people at that age and even more at explorers.  I doubt anyone would say the promise was THE driving force for that - but I remember being that age and it would have* struck me as ceremonial bullshit (I know that some love that part of it).

The real loyalty is to their mates and the troop.

Yeah, I'm not even sure that is a healthy attitude.  It's only one step away from the masons or political parties where the priority is to the organisation.  If you must have promises, perhaps something like "serving the good of humanity and protecting the natural environment for future scouts" or something would be less ambiguous.

To be 100% clear though I think that the work the Scouts do with young people is great, and their volunteers are invaluable.

*I can say that with some confidence as I was never a Scout, but at about 14 I went to a scout outdoor centre with another youth group and was both confused and astounded at the formalities that the Scouts seemed to be based around - collecting round the flag pole each day, housing and folding it in particular ways etc.

Harry_the_Spider - did you enter the 'cave bus'?

Yes the Marple badgers are greedy things and will do anything for a nutella sandwich.

Didn't do the Cave Bus.

We got earned a big wedge of cash for delivering resident's parking permits for Park Life the other week, so we "invested" it in hiring the climbing tower / zip line for the afternoon.

I can say that with some confidence as I was never a Scout, but at about 14 I went to a scout outdoor centre with another youth group and was both confused and astounded at the formalities that the Scouts seemed to be based around – collecting round the flag pole each day, housing and folding it in particular ways etc.

Not our lot. Formal break of camp and a couple of awards for those that overcame fears etc. No uniforms. No parading. All changed a bit since when I did it back in the 1970s & 80s.

The thing that would have amazed any onlookers this weekend with our lot was tents down and bagged in 38 minutes (we had a bet).

They could be swearing allegiance to Dr Who, Minnie Mouse and Sponge Bob for all they care. All a bit meaningless in the circumstances.

I agree, I don't know why we make them do it.

If you must have promises, perhaps something like “serving the good of humanity and protecting the natural environment for future scouts” or something would be less ambiguous.

If take the "do my duty to Him Upstairs and King Chuck" bit out, the rest of the promise is "to help other people and keep the Scout law". I don't why we can't just have that bit.

[Scout law being:

1. A Scout is to be trusted.
2. A Scout is loyal.
3. A Scout is friendly and considerate.
4. A Scout belongs to the worldwide family of Scouts.
5. A Scout has courage in all difficulties.
6. A Scout makes good use of time and is careful of possessions and property.
7. A Scout has self-respect and respect for others

Covers a reasonable amount of "how to be a decent person" bases I reckon]

the formalities that the Scouts seemed to be based around – collecting round the flag pole each day, housing and folding it in particular ways etc.

There is undoubtedly too much quasi-military bollocks in Scouting.

The thing that would have amazed any onlookers this weekend with our lot was tents down and bagged in 38 minutes (we had a bet).

What kind of tents?

The thing that would have amazed any onlookers this weekend with our lot was tents down and bagged in 38 minutes (we had a bet).

Impressive!

Most DofE / Scout / youth camp groups I have worked with seem to have a time zone malfunction when it comes to packing up anything camping wise...

The thing that would have amazed any onlookers this weekend with our lot was tents down and bagged in 38 minutes (we had a bet).

What kind of tents?

Probably those 2 second Decathlon ones....

air rifle shooting too which I haven’t done in a while!
Currently planning a joint beavers/cubs summer camp to get my permit for that too

think you'll need to do an NSRA course for air rifles rather than time served on the activity.

lose various people at that age and even more at explorers

There's the pressure of school/ exams to contend with. Don't have much of this issue with our  Scouts but the explorers have a drop in the GCSE lot at this time of year.

collecting round the flag pole each day, housing and folding it in particular ways

easy way to do a headcount on camp, reminder of the day's activity, address any issues.  Folding the flag is mainly for how best to unfurl it rather than have some poor sod yanking on the rope only for it to remain bound! If there's a right to fold it when not in use we've not got the memo. I don't think the UK is as possessive as the US in the "correct" way to fold the flag.

What kind of tents?

5 man Berghaus ones.

https://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/16618540/berghaus-adhara-500-nightfall-tent-16618540

They are brand new, so we had the kids put them up and pull them down last Wednesday. They didn't do that in 38 minutes!

Most DofE / Scout / youth camp groups I have worked with seem to have a time zone malfunction when it comes to packing up anything camping wise…

Our older ones sat around in their deck chairs watching a DoE bunch in the same field, in the hope that they would make a pig's ear of setting up camp. They turned out to be Air Cadets and were even faster than us!

5 man Berghaus ones.
> https://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/16618540/berghaus-adhara-500-nightfall-tent-16618540

Pah, so you're one of those nylon dome Johnny Come Lately snowflakes eh? We're still using that bastion of Scouting (and bane of Scouts), the Stormhaven...

https://www.blacksofgreenock.co.uk/blacks-of-greenock-stormhaven-tent

We've got a fine set of Icelandics, but the bells & Vangos get used more due to the separate sleeping pods they have.

Our 2 scout troops are now at c50/50 boys & girls (think my troop are poss >50% girls) so if we've got a mixed patrol for activities they can stay as a group in the tent.

Thanks poly.  It's lists of you must have ... like that which is probably why I've gone 50 years avoiding any tickets and just got on with it.   Easy enough when it's you and mates.  I probably shan't be doing all that lot to enable some cubs to experience sailing then!  I'll stick to knots for the moment.... unless that also needs a ticket these days 😉

We've got patrol tents too, but they are a faff, weigh a ton!

Thanks poly.  It’s lists of you must have … like that which is probably why I’ve gone 50 years avoiding any tickets and just got on with it.   Easy enough when it’s you and mates.

I might be wrong but the barrier to entry to become a sailing instructor compared to MTB trail leader, Climbing instructor, or a canoe instructor seem rather different.  Even at that you still operate under the “supervision” of a senior instructor!

I’ll stick to knots for the moment…. unless that also needs a ticket these days 😉

I think you’ll be fine.  If they do ever go sailing the instructors will be delighted as it saves them half an hour of trying to teach people to tie a bowline, clove hitch, round turn and two half hitches….  If you are doing that it’s worth teaching them when to actually use each one, too often it’s taught as learn the process for the knot but ignores where/when to use it.

We’ve got patrol tents too, but they are a faff, weigh a ton!

Patrol tents are cool, solid easy to put up,and last for many decades. A couple of our scout groups tents were Ex British army and had messages and dates written inside from WW1

In other news… My lad has a spoof scout badge with a TARDIS on it on his Explorer shirt. At the weekend camp we convinced some of the Cubs that Explorers had a Time Traveller staged badge.

eBay Linky

Level 1 : Two hours forwards and backwards.

Level 2 : See Henry VIII

Level 3 : Dinosaurs or Jesus

All the leaders were in on it along with the older Scouts. We even told them that the red phone box by the Tuck Shop was the time machine.

This started a debate amongst the kids about where and when they would go when it was their turn to go for the "Time Traveller".

One of them thought long and hard, then decided that he would like to go to Nando’s.

If we can spin this out until the next camp I want to get the identical twins, that the Cubs don't know about, from our Explorer Unit in on the act.

If we can spin this out until the next camp I want to get the identical twins, that the Cubs don’t know about, from our Explorer Unit in on the act.

Genius!

One walks out one door saying "bye". The other comes in through another at exactly the same time and says "hi".

Last time I saw them they had different hair cuts. Will have to arrange some hats.

think you’ll need to do an NSRA course for air rifles rather than time served on the activity.

no, I meant I got to have a go, not running the activity!

@Poly, (I’m surprised no other leaders have said this!) there are several versions of the promise, for different faiths and the one you’re interested in, no faith. Can’t remember the wording for Cubs, but Beavers is “I promise to do my best, be kind and helpful and to love our world (instead of love God)” the beavers/parents decide on which they want to use before investiture.

(I’m surprised no other leaders have said this!) there are several versions of the promise, for different faiths and the one you’re interested in, no faith.

Which, just to prolong the debate, further strengthens the argument for having hat bit of the promise; if you're going to have different versions of it, so different people are promising different things, what's the point?

Crazyjenkins01 - I am aware there is an option not to mention god, although my experience in practice is that it’s not as widely promoted as you suggest, in my sons experience (which is obviously from one group and over 10 yrs ago so may not be representative) was that as a group they all learned the same promise mentioning god and the expectation was parents would highlight a concern and special arrangements be made.  Now the beaver leader in that group is a rather traditional, church going, woman who was at least 60 yrs old so may not have any appreciation of the perception that creates.  Schools often fall into the same habit.  Your option if you don’t want to follow the line is to stand up and ask to be treated/identified as a minority - that’s not a great way of being inclusive.  Those kids who learn the default position with god go to school and tell their friends (they are all very proud of learning their promise) and the unintended message to people of other or no faith is you would need to learn the same promise.

Having said god at beavers the assumption seems to be that you will continue to do the same for the rest of your scouting life (again some groups may be less so - this group is in a predominantly white, middle class, probably reasonably high church attending area).  My daughter who only joined as an Explorer, was given the standard version to learn (on paper) and told if she would rather say the version without god to look it up online!  No option that didn’t mention the Queen (or now King) was offered.

the default position* in scouting (in the U.K.) is God and Christianity, if you are Christian it can be quite difficult to see why if there’s an opt out of those parts it isn’t very welcoming to people of other faith or none.  It is a historic anomaly arising from the beliefs of Baden Powell and the way that much of society operated at the time which in my opinion they could do with removing.  I realise that will be hard because the organisational heirarchy is full of people, who by the selection bias of the system are people who either want the involvement of the church or are ambivalent about it; any challenge to the status quo may well face being accused of “wokeness”.

Even within the commonwealth many other scouts make no mention of their commitment to the hereditary monarch.

I’ll reiterate again that I am very pro-scouting, I just wish the organisation could see that some aspects need modernisation to be as good as it could be.  As someone said for Beavers it probably makes no difference - but the organisations real crisis is in recruiting leaders and there’s bound to be some great potential leaders and the god and king stuff puts them off.

* the official position is that they are secular - but it’s not the perception (and perception matters as you unwittingly exclude people you never even spoke to), and I don’t think it’s the reality on the ground either - Scouts from multiple groups in this district frequently take part in religious ceremonies at the local church, but in well over 10 yrs of involvement with them they’ve never discussed participating with other religions in the community.

No option that didn’t mention the Queen (or now King) was offered.

There isn't one, another bugbear of mine.

As for everything else you said, I agree completely. To add some balance, as an 'insider', there is a large, vocal, number of leaders regularly expressing doubts and concerns about the "Faith and King" bits of the promise on forums such as the various Facebook groups etc, and I would be very surprised if HQ isn't listening.

However, I can understand why they have to move very slowly and cautiously so as not to rock the boat too much. One can just imagine the Daily Mail/Telegraph outrage and "wokeness going mad" bullshit spin should any vague thoughts about changing ot removing it be even whispered about by the Scout Association.

We moved 5 up from Cubs to Scouts at the weekend. A Leader took the kids to one side and asked them if they wanted to do the God version of The Promise. They said "no". So we did the alternate. No big fuss at all.

Have to say that "Do my Duty to The King" grates a bit with me personally, as a Republican who went to the tip during the coronation, but I doubt that Charlie is going to turn up at troop night with a squadron of tanks looking for recruits.

Anyway, this weekend is Escape Rammy and the kids are massively fired up for it. This is why we do Scouts. If The King wants to pop along too we'll let him (DBS permitting), but I'm sure we'll be fine without him.

Also, this is back next year and it is absolutely off the scale!

Red Rose 2024

Got a couple of fund raisers to do between now and then to keep the cost down, but for £265 they are going to have the time of their lives!

IHN - ah yes I hadn't even considered the external influence of the "Media".

I just checked the US scout promise to see if they were swearing allegiance to the flag / nation etc.  Somewhat surprisingly they aren't.  Although I found their promise even worse!   I'm not sure what they meant by "morally straight", I suspect it goes back to times when Enid Blyton wrote about the kids have such a gay time, but crikey nothing like keeping up with the times!

I obviously can’t comment on other groups ‘default’ but ours, for all sections, is Our World. We aren’t based in a church though, neither are a lot of the other groups in our district so maybe that makes a difference?

if you’re going to have different versions of it, so different people are promising different things

While I see the point here, the only real difference in the “versions” is the name of the deity you personally believe in, and if you don’t believe in one the our world makes it more inclusive. I do agree with the King/Queen point though, but as BP came from a military back ground it at least makes sense.

Just read your * bit again poly, must have missed it first time 💁

We only do church service once a year, on Remembrance Sunday, St George’s day is a scout event at the football stadium (for the last couple of years at least) and I took our beaver colony to visit the city’s synagogue last week which they loved! Which the cubs did last summer as well.

It unfortunately sounds like the traditional church going leader you mention may not be modernising themselves

crazyjenkins - his group were not based in a church/church hall either.   In fact I don't think any of the groups that are within sensible distance from here are.  It's likely habit - the Beaver leader has been doing it for 30 years, complains constantly that she wants to give it up and wants help but isn't particularly keen on anyone doing anything differently - I'm sure you'll have encountered the type as every voluntary organisation has these people!

Having a choice of promises is strange.  it's similar with oaths in court.  Whilst plenty of people there do proactively choose to affirm (i.e. not mention god, or use a holy book) there's a lot of people who are using words with zero meaning to them to assure the court they will tell the truth and not leave anything out, and some opting to do so because they think they sound more trustworthy if they do so!

The ritual is important, but probably the words should matter too.