[Closed] BBC Pidgin

Welcome to the internets.

Money well spent?

African equivalent of BBC Alba isn't it? 😉

There was a item about it on the Today programme the other morning, its a mashup of English, Portuguese, Spanish, French and African dialects and became the lingua franca of trading between Europeans and Africans.

Is bbc.com owned by the Beeb? Edit: guess so. bbc.co.uk/pidgin redirects to bbc.com/pidgin.

Surely, while funny, this would be accused of all kinds of racism.

Surely, while funny, this would be accused of all kinds of racism.

No s****in or the thought police dem get ya.

fab

https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/sport-41065435

Mayweather nack McGregor

That's the best thing I've seen in ages

[url= https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/world-41035571 ]Ghana condoms[/url]

By round 9, McGregor don use all im energy like mobile phone battery wey only 5% remain, the bone wey dey im leg even switch off.
Dis na signal for Mayweather to commot imself from airplane mode enter normal and im begin to dey do like lion wey ready to chop.

Probably a lot more widely accepted than Esperanto.

Surely, while funny, this would be accused of all kinds of racism.

A pidgin[1][2][3] /?p?d??n/, or pidgin language, is a grammatically simplified means of communication that develops between two or more groups that do not have a language in common: typically, a mixture of simplified languages or a simplified primary language with other languages' elements included. It is most commonly employed in situations such as trade, or where both groups speak languages different from the language of the country in which they reside (but where there is no common language between the groups).

Always understood Pidgin English references to be mocking or an insult to ethnic groups with poor English. I actually find the BBC page a bit uncomfortable.

Isn't Pidgin an official language in Hawaii?

Surely, while funny, this would be accused of all kinds of racism.

FFS! It''s a form of language not a parody page. 🙄

Always understood Pidgin English references to be mocking or an insult to ethnic groups with poor English. I actually find the BBC page a bit uncomfortable.

Not at all - it's a real language.

Apropos, I remember a piece on a woman doing pidgin voiceovers for films in Nigeria (*) and she was actually white, from Essex.

(*) details might be wrong

If you assume it's a parody of a language, I can see why some may see it as a bit uncomfortable.

But it isn't, it's a real spoken language and if there's a 'parody' it's because languages i suppose were never meant to be written down (or another way, existed as a spoken form way before there was any need or means to convey actual words as opposed to ideas or broad concepts) It's no more parody than attempting to write cockney, or geordie, y'knaa.

My sister lived on Antigua for a bit and I used to love reading the island's newspaper. The articles were in 'perfect' english, but particularly court transcripts were still written in dialect (lickle instead of little, and so on) reflecting what people actually said. That's what this is, don't see it as parody, enjoy the absolute poetic nature!

If you assume it's a parody of a language, I can see why some may see it as a bit uncomfortable.

But it isn't, it's a real spoken language and if there's a 'parody' it's because languages i suppose were never meant to be written down (or another way, existed as a spoken form way before there was any need or means to convey actual words as opposed to ideas or broad concepts) It's no more parody than attempting to write cockney, or geordie, y'knaa.

But which pidgin? Surely there are many pidgins, so how do you have a common page?

true - you have many because the purpose is to establish a means of communication between two or more separate languages, so it evolves in the gap between the two to use words, gestures, even facial expressions from both in order to enable.

So strictly this is (after a quick google) a service for West and Central Africa, and will be sod all use for the 'pidgin' language that my mate's family speaks (he's english, she's french, their kids are bilingual and frequently their conversations switch between the two in the same sentence)

the 'pidgin' language that my mate's wife family speaks (he's english, she's french, their kids are bilingual and frequently their conversations switch between the two in the same sentence)

We do that at home in Spanish and English, so not much use for me either 🙂

I love the header for the most read stories: "De one we dem de read well well"

Problem is this thread appears to have started by seeing the comedy in it. I initially did and felt uncomfortable having done so.

Anyway, this sums up more what I'm really uncomfortable about.

Anyway, this sums up more what I'm really uncomfortable about.

Assuming that the last 8 minutes of that video are as big a pile of garbage as the first 2 minutes that I managed to sit through, I'd say that if it in any way approximates to your views, then you do indeed have a problem.

A whole load of people communicate in Pidgin. It's not "broken English", it's not inferior, it's a language. The Beeb is providing a service to them. It's that simple. End.

Here's the interview on Front Row the other night. They describe Pidgin as a the lingu franca of West Africa [i]"a tongue that combines English and Portuguese with borrowings from Nigeria's more than 500 local languages"[/i].

Helen Oyibo, one of the BBC Pidgin reporters, explains some of the origins and reads a Shakespearean sonnet in Pidgin.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b091v0th from 23:38

But which pidgin? Surely there are many pidgins, so how do you have a common page?

Indeed, but according to the guy on the Today programme, IIRC, there is a version that is understandable by the majority of West African speakers, and the service is aimed at them.

So strictly this is (after a quick google) a service for West and Central Africa, and will be sod all use for the 'pidgin' language that my mate's family speaks (he's english, she's french

Yeah this is more properly called "West African Pidgin" (as they do in the interview above).

Indeed, but according to the guy on the Today programme, IIRC, there is a version that is understandable by the majority of West African speakers, and the service is aimed at them.

Point taken, although it seems a bit of an abuse of notation, but fair enough if the target audience is clear.

Anyway, this sums up more what I'm really uncomfortable about.

The right to be offended?

Anyway, this sums up more what I'm really uncomfortable about.

Are you uncomfortable that it gives nasty little illiberal bigots something to beat the BBC with, whilst pretending to not be bigots?

Or are you uncomfortable that you agree with the guy citing Daily Mail articles as his research?

Anyway, this sums up more what I'm really uncomfortable about

U OK HUN?

I guess it's more a reaction to being brought up not to stereotype the way people speak.

If you accept it as a language though, then we should have sites in Cockney, Geordie, Brummie, or [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multicultural_London_English ]Multicultral London English[/url], supported by the BBC also, funded by tax payers?

Who's stereotyping it's a lanaguage used in some West African countries.

No, no we shouldnt't as we understand "Queen's" English.

Ulster Scots?

There's some people around who get 'uncomfortable' at the slightest bloody thing. 🙄

When I 1st heard of Pidgin English I was just a kid of about 14 (1971) & genuinely thought it was 'pigeon english'. 😆

As a kid I loved all the Gerald Durrell books and really enjoyed all the pidgin used when he was collecting animals in Africa.The younger me never spotted that Durrell may have been a colonialist,racist and sexist.Should I go back and re read them,then I can feel suitably guilty for enjoying the stories?

We should burn his books.

We should burn his books.

Naturalist-ist.

I guess it's more a reaction to being brought up not to stereotype the way people speak.

Growing up in Scotland I recognise a lot of the comments about Pidgin just being "crappy English".

The same criticisms could be (and are) made about Scots or Doric.

But because we can say "Oh it's the language of Rabbie Burns or Charles Murray or Hugh MacDiarmid or Walter Scott" etc they have enough history to be considered 'legitimate'.

Maureen Watt (SNP) took her Scottish Parliamentary oath as follows:

[i]"I depone aat I wull be leal and bear ae full alleadgance tae her majesty Queen Elizabeth her airs an ony fa come aifter her anent the law. Sae help me God."[/i]

Is that stereotyping how people speak or just respecting a language and culture?

No, no we shouldnt't as we understand "Queen's" English.

And so do most West Africans.

And so do most West Africans.

Of course they do but some understand Pidgin better.

Scots and Doric speakers understand Queen's English too. See the parallel?

Surely it's a dialect and/or accent with colloquialisms. There aren't many (or any) languages I'm aware that I can already read without ever being taught.

One comment I read from someone who spoke it, they said they it's a spoken language only. Reading it was confusing to them. They prefer to read normal English.

Yeah there was an interesting comment on that video deadkenny posted (amongst all the general race hate, stuff about jewish controlled media and paedophiles):

Dave I'm Nigerian, I live in Nigeria, I speak English, pidgin and Igbo and I 50% disagree with you. Let me explain why

I do agree with your overall opinion, Nigerians in Nigeria don't actually read BBC so theres no point and this is a huge waste of money, and even if we did, we would rather just read the news in proper English.
The people they are targeting who might appreciate reading the news in pidgin don't have access to the internet so like I said there's no point.

But a couple points of correction.

1. If BBC news is translated into other languages like French and Spanish then yes it actually can also be translated into pidgin.
It doesn't matter if pidgin is not an official spoken language, everyone in Nigeria irrespective of tribe or class can speak pidgin so it might as well be Nigerias unofficial official language.

2. Nope. Pidgin isn't only spoken by illiterates. All Nigerians can speak pidgin. Even those who are educated and have complete command of proper English.

3. What you don't understand is that in Nigeria, most of the people who are educated which is most of us, can and do speak 100% proper English. We also speak pidgin.
So yeah, pidgin originated out of crappy English but at this point, it might as well be a different language because the same people who speak it also speak proper English.

Tldr: to most Nigerians, English is the official language, pidgin is a second language and Igbo, hausa or yoruba is the third language.

4. Pidgin English is really only supposed to be a spoken language, even i struggle to read this. It takes me 3 times as long to read this compared to normal English.

5. The way you speak pidgin is Retarded. You sounds like a Noob at speaking pidgin. a deep deep Noob.
That's not actually how pidgin is spoken, it doesn't sound like that.
If you speak this in Nigeria, you'd jut embarrass yourself and we'd just laugh at you and tell you to speak regular English.

6. Like I said everyone in Nigeria already speaks proper English, we also speak pidgin.

Pidgin is a second language.?

His point that [i]"people they are targeting who might appreciate reading the news in pidgin don't have access to the internet"[/i] seems remarkably short-sighted though.

One comment I read from someone who spoke it, they said they it's a spoken language only. Reading it was confusing to them. They prefer to read normal English

That person may or may not be typical, but it's not at all the same thing as racism.

Surely it's a dialect and/or accent with colloquialisms. There aren't many (or any) languages I'm aware that I can already read without ever being taught.

Which? West African Pidgin, Scots or Doric?

perchypanther - Member
We should burn his books.
Naturalist-ist.

Pigin. Seems totally analogous with Ulster Scotts to me.

Seems totally analogous with Ulster Scotts to me.

Yeah that's kinda the point I was making. The cartoon ginger in the video reckons Pidgin is just "crappy" English and we should be encouraging West Africans to "better themselves" instead of pandering to it.

Ulster Scots (or Insular Scots, Northern Scots, Central Scots, Southern Scots) is likewise regarded by some as [i]"crappy English"[/i].

So we got Received Pronunciation as an attempt to encourage the northerners to better themselves.

Scots is likewise regarded by some as "crappy English".

If it's not a separate language altogether then it's almost certainly an enhanced or augmented form of English.

We hae hunners mair gallus words tae use.

There aren't many (or any) languages I'm aware that I can already read without ever being taught.

That's something about being a native (I assume) English speaker, there are no other languages sufficiently closely related to be mutually comprehensible (I think Flemish is closest and that's far from comprehensible, might as well be Geordie.) If you were Spanish or Swedish or whatever this would not be the case.

Maybe that's why it seems a bit weird? Funny also. Whatever, it's just communication.

As a kid I loved all the Gerald Durrell books and really enjoyed all the pidgin used when he was collecting animals in Africa.The younger me never spotted that Durrell may have been a colonialist,racist and sexist.Should I go back and re read them,then I can feel suitably guilty for enjoying the stories?

Please don't bother. Allow me to be outraged on your behalf. It's the way of the world, and STW these days.

Wasn't offended (rarely offended, it's nothing against me personally so why should I be?), just uncomfortable as in questioning if it's right. The answer is, it is, and I accept it's not racism (I only questioned if it was anyway).

The question of whether the Beeb should be spending money on it and that Pidgin isn't something you'd normally read so where's the actual audience, is another matter. And what about all other dialects?

Scots is likewise regarded by some as "crappy English".

[i]I've been so sad
Since you said my accent was bad
He's worn a frown
This Caledonia clown
I'm just going to have to learn to hesitate
To make sure my words
On your Saxen ears don't grate
But I wouldn't know a single word to say
If I flattened all the vowels
And threw the 'are' away[/i]

The question of whether the Beeb should be spending money on it..

Blimmin' subsidies...

We dey hearam for morning,
For afternoon sef we dey hearam,
We dey hearam for night.
Dem dey halaram,
We no dey rest.

Subsidy!
Subsidy!!
Subsidy!!!
Dis subsidy sef.

Dem say na awuf money
Wey we dey chop,
Dem say na government money.

Awuf money we no see,
Government we no see,
Na so so suffer we dey.

Kidnappers dey kidnap us,
Thieves dey thief our property,
Militants dey murder us,
Better things we no dey see.

Upon dat,
Dem still dey hala subsidy,
Dis subsidy sef.

- "Dis Subsidy Sef" by Chidi Anthony Opara

And what about all other dialects?

Like Creole?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8475381.stm

Like Creole?

Or jive!

When I 1st heard of Pidgin English I was just a kid of about 14 (1971) & genuinely thought it was 'pigeon english'.

If it's any consolation, I'm in my 40s and I thought it was "pigeon English" until about ten minutes ago.

GrahamS - Member

Seems totally analogous with Ulster Scotts to me.

Yeah that's kinda the point I was making. The cartoon ginger in the video reckons Pidgin is just "crappy" English and we should be encouraging West Africans to "better themselves" instead of pandering to it.

Ulster Scots (or Insular Scots, Northern Scots, Central Scots, Southern Scots) is likewise regarded by some as "crappy English".

It doesn't have to be [i]either or[/i]. Something can be a dialect without being crappy English. I guess it doesn't help when these thing become politicised and people try to attach "language" status to a dialect in order to access funding or social status.

Something can be a dialect without being crappy English.

Agreed. The "crappy English" thing came from that video deadkenny posted where the guy argued that West African Pidgin wasn't a real thing, it was just poorly learnt English, equivalent to him taking a couple of Spanish lessons and then wanting his "crappy Spanish" to be catered for instead of just expecting him to get better at Spanish.

Which to me misses the point that this pidgin is a [i]lingua franca[/i] of West Africa, with hundreds of years of history, and is very widely spoken.

He says it "soft bigotry" because the BBC are somehow assuming that West Africans are incapable of learning proper Queen's English.

I disagree. I can't see much wrong with trying to communicate with hundreds of millions of people in their common tongue. And I think his alternative amounts to shouting [i]"SPEAK! ENGLISH!"[/i] at people, which doesn't feel like the right approach.

And I think his alternative amounts to shouting "SPEAK! ENGLISH!" at people, which doesn't feel like the right approach.

Rightly or wrongly, English is the International Language of Business, Engineering, Maritime and Aviation.

When you have a meeting involving a mix of nationalities, then 99.9% the default language is English.

It's a simple of fact, being able to speak English can be a massive benefit for someone. Why would you not want to encourage that?

Why would you not want to encourage that?

I don't think the BBC are out to [i]discourage[/i] anyone from speaking English.

But likewise I don't think that only providing stuff in English is the best way to reach people that don't speak English.

GrahamS - Member

Something can be a dialect without being crappy English.

Agreed. The "crappy English" thing came from that video deadkenny posted where the guy argued that West African Pidgin wasn't a real thing, it was just poorly learnt English, equivalent to him taking a couple of Spanish lessons and then wanting his "crappy Spanish" to be catered for instead of just expecting him to get better at Spanish.

Which to me misses the point that this pidgin is a lingua franca of West Africa, with hundreds of years of history, and is very widely spoken.

He says it "soft bigotry" because the BBC are somehow assuming that West Africans are incapable of learning proper Queen's English.

I disagree. I can't see much wrong with trying to communicate with hundreds of millions of people in their common tongue. And I think his alternative amounts to shouting "SPEAK! ENGLISH!" at people, which doesn't feel like the right approach.

Well I wasn't going to click the video because the thumbnail was so bad.

Imo I don't think it's really neccessary to have websites translated into this if anyone who reads it can read English. We all read in our own accent and a dialect is just (broadly speaking) an extreme accent or colloquialism. If a pidgin speaker, or an Ulster scotts speaker reads a paragraph of text they are going to colloquialise it in their head automatically.

Translating it seems to be little more than phonetically spelling the accent. I'm not really concerned whether or not it's soft biggotry, we just have to be honest about what the difference between a language a dialect is.

There is simply no real requirement for the BBC Pidgin, its pathetic, they will be posting recipes for goat pepper soup next, there is sufficient media to satisfy all languages, this is purely an exercise in silliness.

I bought all of my families Samsung S6`s in Lagos, my Iphone5 and the best wireless dongle I have ever had (which incidentally was unavailable in the UK at the time............BEAT THAT !!!)

BBC Bellendry at its finest

Outraged of Denhaw !

Imo I don't think it's really neccessary to have websites translated into this if anyone who reads it can read English.

I don't think that is the case.

Translating it seems to be little more than phonetically spelling the accent.

West African Pidgin was described as a mix of English and Portuguese borrowing from 500+ local languages. I think it goes a bit beyond English in a funny accent with no tenses.

Picking some interesting random phrases from the BBC Pidgin site:

No wahala na something wey dey sweet for mouth.

Correct journalist Didi Akinyelure sef chook mouth for BBC Pidgin wey just land.
..
Mr Adjei talk say dis one go scatter all di things wey di country don plan to make sure say people no spread di disease and cases of new HIV no go dey again.
..
But e remain small make McGregor forget say na boxing im dey do after he im give Mayweather plenty blow for the back of im head.

There is simply no real requirement for the BBC Pidgin

I'm assuming you have some market analysis to back that up?

The BBC seem to think there is some demand. I'm assuming they have given it at least a bit of thought before employing a team of people to run the site.

They may well be wrong, time will tell, but I don't see the harm in trying.

I bought all of my families Samsung S6`s in Lagos, my Iphone5 and the best wireless dongle I have ever had

Which pretty much supports my point that the Nigerian commenter saying [i]"people they are targeting who might appreciate reading the news in pidgin don't have access to the internet"[/i] is a bit short sighted.

But e remain small make McGregor forget say na boxing im dey do after he im give Mayweather plenty blow for the back of im head.

If you can read that, then you could understand the corressponding sentence in English.

we just have to be honest about what the difference between a language a dialect is.

OK - you first .... what is the difference? Best definition I've heard is that a language is a dielect with an army. Got a more "honest" suggestion?

If you can read that, then you could understand the corressponding sentence in English.

The point of any [url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin ]pidgin language[/url] is that it is a grammatically simplified common tongue combining multiple sources with simplified rules, vocabulary, tenses, clauses etc.

Just because the main source language in WA Pidgin is English doesn't mean that speakers would be able to read or speak formal English in all its confusing and contradictory complex glory.

And so do most West Africans.

The answer is, it is, and I accept it's not racism (I only questioned if it was anyway).

So when you said they surely would be accused of all kinds of racism, that was a question?

That pidgin English is not too dissimilar to the way proper Yorkshire farmers speak!

I'm assuming you have some market analysis to back that up?

I dont need market analysis, theres plenty of online Nigerian newspapers written in non - pidgin, theres an abundance of the printed versions.

The BBC seem to think there is some demand. I'm assuming they have given it at least a bit of thought before employing a team of people to run the site.

Whether they think there is demand or not

I'm assuming you have some market analysis to back that up?

I dont need market analysis, theres plenty of online Nigerian newspapers written in non - pidgin, theres an abundance of the printed versions.

The BBC seem to think there is some demand. I'm assuming they have given it at least a bit of thought before employing a team of people to run the site.

Well thats your assumption, I doubt there is any real justification, thats my opinion.

In my opinion the Pidgin site is there purely to satisfy the ambitions of some rather dim patronising types who clearly havent done any actual market research or they would know that West Africa and Lagos in particular has a well read population of very politically minded folk who will probably never bother to use this site, google Nigerian Newspapers and you will find some pretty interesting stuff, they also have some quite interesting chat forums where a bit of pidgin is bandied about.

Maybe the BBC think they can convey West African news better than the Locals ?

If only the Beeb had asked a man who'd bought a phone in Lagos.

I dont need market analysis, theres plenty of online Nigerian newspapers written in non - pidgin, theres an abundance of the printed versions.

Newspapers exist in non-pidgin, therefore there is no demand for pidgin?

I think your logic is a little flawed. I can buy English newspapers in Wales. Is there no demand for [url= http://golwg360.cymru/ ]Welsh news[/url]? Or a [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymrufyw ]Welsh service on the BBC[/url]?

Wales and Cardiff in particular has a well read population of very politically minded folk and they even have some quite interesting chat forums where a bit of Welsh is bandied about. 😉

Newspapers exist in non-pidgin, therefore there is no demand for pidgin?

If there was sufficient demand they would already exist, they may even exist for all we know.

Wales and Cardiff in particular has a well read population of very politically minded folk and they even have some quite interesting chat forums where a bit of Welsh is bandied about.

Nice !

If only the Beeb had asked a man who'd bought a phone in Lagos.

Nicer

Wales and Cardiff in particular has a well read population of very politically minded folk and they even have some quite interesting chat forums where a bit of Welsh is bandied about.

But can you buy a a Galaxy S6 in Wales?

If there was sufficient demand they would already exist, they may even exist for all we know.

Right... so there might be an established demand for it then [i]for all we know?[/i]

Drac - Moderator 
So when you said they surely would be accused of all kinds of racism, that was a question?

Yes. Phrased badly.

Done now with all this. Am in the wrong. Egg on face.

Try Pigdin next time but very noble of you to admit you were in wrong.