[Closed] BAN TRUMP FROM THE UK PETITION

but that he's having no effect on US politics

I said no such thing

Much like Farage, he has set the agenda for a large portion of the contest, taking it places that the 'established' politicians would never have gone. like immigration, free trade and the balance of trade (especially with China, Mexico and the Middle East)

If he's taken it there with some gimmicky stuff that trolls and undermines the established order, but ultimately gets people talking about the some of the subjects that otherwise wouldn't have been, but actually connect with voters, then it's a clear win for him.

Like I said, you need to ake it with a pinch of salt and a sense of humour - like the 'horrific' things he said about his daughter

Trump for London mayor.

ninfan - Member

Like I said, you need to ake it with a pinch of salt and a sense of humour

If you were an american muslim, how funny would you find it to have someone running for president on a platform that includes banning you from ever leaving and re-entering your homeland? And then to hear how much support it has from your fellow citizens? I'm sure [i]I'd[/i] find it hilarious.

Or, you're pretty sure that black lives matter, and then you see a protestor beaten up with his approval. LOL. Or you're that guy beaten half to death in Boston, whose attackers said "Donald Trump was right, all these illegals need to be deported." I think those were tears of laughter, aye?

ernie_lynch - Member

So you think Trump "knows exactly what he is doing" but that he's having no effect on US politics - the polls must be made up.

You must be either very stupid ninfan or believe that those who listen to your nonsense are very stupid.

Although I suspect that it's probably a bit of both.

Ya, but I disagree with you cos my interpretation is that either I am stoopid or are you incomprehensible ... ahhhh ... that is the question. Get it? Get it? 😆

Northwind - Member
If you were an american muslim, how funny would you find it to have someone running for president on a platform that includes banning you from ever leaving and re-entering your homeland? And then to hear how much support it has from your fellow citizens? I'm sure I'd find it hilarious.

You object to that? Really? Do you know what the British did in Malaya when they fought the communist? They fenced in the entire community. As they called it ... starve off their suppliers and supports. Not forever but until such time as the emergency was manageable.

Or, you're pretty sure that black lives matter, and then you see a protestor beaten up with his approval. LOL. Or you're that guy beaten half to death in Boston, whose attackers said "Donald Trump was right, all these illegals need to be deported." I think those were tears of laughter, aye?

Advocating rules breaking is right, aye? C'mon ... are you trying to rationalise bureaucracy or are you trying to create chaos? I am sure that you want the rules of the land to be respected, aye? Then make up your mind ... rational or otherwise? Aye.

Your simply laughing off others for being rules suckers but yet you constantly perceive rules to be a necessity for our daily lives, may it traffic speeding rules, health & safety rules etc yet when the illegals are told to stick to the rules, the rules are wrong ... aye. 😆

Told you I see you lot coming ... rational ... aye ... 😆

Ernie. Whilst I don't agree with most of what our usual trolls a spitting out. The polls point by ninfan seems valid. I can find no part of the link giving me an actual sample size. Just % after %. So it [i]may[/i] be representative, but the fact that It is not obvious (at least to me) is pretty telling.

Having said that. I still think Trump hateful man and want him nowhere near the UK.

*if someone can point me to a link of sample size then fair play.

If you were an american muslim, how funny would you find it to have someone running for president on a platform that includes banning you from ever leaving and re-entering your homeland? And then to hear how much support it has from your fellow citizens? I'm sure I'd find it hilarious.

Well, I could start off by thinking "phew, isn't it a good thing that I live in a secure country where the president does not weild absolute executive power, but is restrained by an extensive bi-cameral legislature, along with a written constitution that protects the free exercise of religion and a Supreme Court that jealously protects it, long with a final check on the power of government in the second amendment." Then sit back and think "wow, that's rather clever actually isn't it?"

I can find no part of the link giving me an actual sample size. Just % after %. So it may be representative, but the fact that It is not obvious (at least to me) is pretty telling.

The last sentence of the article in the link says : "Full results here" which takes you to the full 102 page report.

It also says in capital letters :

IF YOU HAVE BASIC METHODOLOGICAL
QUESTIONS, PLEASE E-MAIL
information@publicpolicypolling.com,
OR CONSULT THE FINAL PARAGRAPH
OF THE PRESS RELEASE

To save you the bother of looking

Public Policy Polling surveyed 532 usual Republican primary voters and 525 usual Democratic primary voters on December 16 th and 17th. The margin of error for both parties is +/-4.3%.

Oh look, 19% of those far more intelligent and reasonable democrats support bombing Agrabah too.

And? So? What's your point ninfan......that Americans across the political spectrum are ill-informed? Really.......no shit???

The whole system relies on the majority being ill-informed, relatively ignorant, and therefore easily manipulated.

And just to show how politically ill-informed Americans can be a poll in 2009 showed that 42% of Americans thought that the central pillar of communism - [i]"from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"[/i] was actually from the United States founding documents.

[url= http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/was-karl-marx-founding-father ]Was Karl Marx a Founding Father?[/url]

Ill-informed, ignorant, and clearly confused, provides huge scope for someone like Trump to sow hatred and division and use it as an instrument to secure power. Trump course knows exactly what he's doing.

steveoath - Member
Having said that. I still think Trump hateful man and want him nowhere near the UK.

You have not applied your rational positivist thought logically or consistently. What you have just demonstrated is merely emotional bias without any rational reason to support your opinion.

Your interpretation of hate is merely based on the media hype like any biases.

*if someone can point me to a link of sample size then fair play.

If you are consistence with yourself (world view) this is a question you would ignore but then by trying to hate (... an opinion that might or might be measurable and with no data to support his (Trump) personality and definitely no sample size, yet you went on to speculate like everyone else ... ) you are being irrational and contradictory to yourself.

What's this data for if you like to speculate like everyone else?

😆

ernie_lynch - Member

And? So? What's your point ninfan......that Americans across the political spectrum are ill-informed? Really.......no shit???

The whole system relies on the majority being ill-informed, relatively ignorant, and therefore easily manipulated.

😆 You are thinking too much ... chill man chilll ... human beings don't survive by liking each others.

We have to cull each others from time to time as that is the nature of things.

Merican can ban whoever they wishes ... I say do it Merican! You can! Show the world that you can take on the system rather than let the system grabs hold of you.

Merican! Merican! We all love Merican! (<- that's a song btw) 😆

They all think the Merican Presidents are stoopid yet all of them have to beg the Merican like a beggar to help them win wars. 😆

Your interpretation of hate is merely based on the media hype like any biases.

This!

and always from the same people who jump up and down screaming in horror about the press when they dare to do it to Miliband or Corbyn...

The whole system relies on the majority being ill-informed, relatively ignorant, and therefore easily manipulated.

Ah, The toiling masses, who have neither the time nor the inclination to examine social theories eh?

Can't imagine that you could ever find examples of ignorance or manipulation amongst the righteous British left of course, no, lets just all laugh at the stupid Americans because it makes us feel better, and pretend they're somehow different from us eh?

http://volokh.com/2013/07/10/political-ignorance-in-britain-2/

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/29/britons-not-ignorant-most-countries-facts-wrong

ninfan - Member

"Your interpretation of hate is merely based on the media hype like any biases".

This!

Let me get this right.......you are quoting Chewwy to back you up?!

😆

.....lets just all laugh at the stupid Americans

No one has called the Americans "stupid". They are clearly not stupid, just like any other nation on earth.

What there is however evidence for is that an uncomfortably large percentage of Americans are ill-informed and relatively ignorant. That's how Donald Trump can manipulate them by spouting lies such as that the British police are scared of Muslim areas of London and that New Jersey Muslims celebrated 9/11.

Ah, The toiling masses, who have neither the time nor the inclination to examine social theories eh?

Well bearing in mind how anti-communism and crass patriotism is drummed into them throughout their lives I wouldn't expect 42% to think that the principle pillar of communism was in their Bill of Rights.

I'm not sure how much time or inclination they need to know the difference between their own society and communism, or at least be aware that they aren't living in a communist society.

ernie_lynch - Member

Well bearing in mind how anti-communism and crass patriotism is drummed into them throughout their lives I wouldn't expect 42% to think that the principle pillar of communism was in their Bill of Rights.

I'm not sure how much time or inclination they need to know the difference between their own society and communism, or at least be aware that they aren't living in a communist society.

But we all know communism is just but a utopia don't we?

Commune this commune that ... What? Communist is communist! Dear Leader Mao would consider 70 million culling is nothing but a drop in the sea. No one in history comes anyway close to Dear Leader Mao brilliance. Not even the mighty Mongols.

Communist ya ... the machine of culling. I like! Cull!

You communist or socialist? 😆

ernie_lynch - Member
Let me get this right.......you are quoting Chewwy to back you up?!

Why not? After all your logic does not make sense other than trying to use information to confuse.

It's a bit misinterpreting statistic innit and you are not even a PhD in positivist research yet try to interpret statistic in a positivist determination.

Now now ... see told you I can see you coming ... innit! Aye! 😆

edit: You may quote me if you wish ...

This thread does prove that its not just Americans who are morons.

Let me get this right.......you are quoting Chewwy to back you up?!

[img] [/img]

Well it really speaks volumes if you failed to understand that quoting Chewwy's approving posts doesn't strengthen your case ninfan!

Btw it amuses greatly how both you and Chewwy like to portray any criticism of Donald Trump's bigoted incendiary comments as the sole reserve of "lefties" when David Cameron has described Trump's comments as "divisive, stupid and wrong", and Boris Johnson as betraying "stupefying ignorance" which according to Johnson proves that he is "unfit to be US President".

While the Met Police, after pointing out that they "would not normally dignify such comments with a response", claim that "Mr Trump could not be more wrong".

Now of course most people wouldn't consider David Cameron nor Boris Johnson of being "lefties" (nor indeed the Met Police of being a cabal of hand-wringing lefties) but I am perfectly prepared to accept that both you and Chewwy see them as lefties - immersed as you both are in your bizarre extreme right-wing world.

After all the US Republican Tea Party activists see Barack Obama as a communist/socialist Muslim and I can't imagine that much more than a fag paper separates you and Chewwy from the Republican Tea Party activists, if that.

Cameron, Boris, met police

[IMG] [/IMG]

Are you unable to form your own opinions Ernie? Is that why you just parrot what you hear in Socialist Worker?

Go on, how many Trump speeches have you watched in full to form your own opinion?

Are you unable to form your own opinions Ernie?

You've got me there ninfan........'Tis true.

I think you've just delivered the knockout blow. Well done.

LOLing at this thread.

Both Ernie and Ninfan have made some decent points - but the pair of you are so utterly offended by each others positions that this has turned into a chimps shit hurling competition.

Really commendable guys, you can do better than that.

Tom_W1987 - Member

LOLing at this thread.

Both Ernie and Ninfan have made some decent points - but the pair of you are so utterly offended by each others positions that this has turned into a[b] chimps shit hurling competition[/b].

Careful ... someone might interpret that differently taking it out of context totally. 😆

Really commendable guys, you can do better than that.

Me! Me! Me! How about me! I Cameron & Boris are just riding the opportunities presented to them. I don't see them lefties nor righties ... just Tories.

I ain't no extreme righties nor lefties but I just know that the machine of bureaucracy is slowly turning people into ZMs. That I am sure of! 😯

Tom_W1987 - Member

Both Ernie and Ninfan have made some decent points

I wasn't aware that Ninfan had made any points.

What were they?

I said no such thing

Much like Farage, he has set the agenda for a large portion of the contest, taking it places that the 'established' politicians would never have gone. like immigration, free trade and the balance of trade (especially with China, Mexico and the Middle East)

If he's taken it there with some gimmicky stuff that trolls and undermines the established order, but ultimately gets people talking about the some of the subjects that otherwise wouldn't have been, but actually connect with voters, then it's a clear win for him.

Well Ernie, he's spot on with his analysis of Trumps tactics.

Trump's tactics are pretty self-evident.

I said a day ago [i]"Trump has helped significantly in spreading division and hatred"[/i]

And the whole point of me resurrecting the thread after it had laid dormant for a week was precisely to draw attention to how successful Trump had been. Ninfan actually claimed that the poll findings couldn't be trusted :

ninfan - Member

Ah, ridiculous polls!

It's like jumping up and down saying that a quarter of British Muslims supported the Charlie Hebdo massacre - you can make a poll say just about whatever you want if you try hard enough.

I also said that [i]"I expect those figures to continue to grow".[/i]

And I said that Trump [i]"knows exactly what he's doing"[/i] while Ninfan says that he "suspects" Trump knows what he is doing.

If you think that Ninfan has made some "decent points" then fair enough. I don't agree.

Without looking into how the polls were sampled, he could have a valid point in regards to those. I cant be arsed to read further back right now.

So he could have a valid point if only you could be arsed to find out. Well that's convinced me.

What about this other "point" he made :

ninfan - Member

Funny - the lefties jump up and down complaining how the press don't give Corbyn fair representation, yet remain oblivious to the possibility that the press representation of Trump might just be p, shock horror, unrepresentative and biased

There is no doubt that many people, and not just Corbyn supporters btw, have expressed dismay how Corbyn's views have been deliberately misrepresented in certain sections of the media.

I am not aware however that Trump's supporters, or even indeed Trump himself, have ever claimed that he has been misrepresented by the media, in fact they seem to relish the furore which his comments create.

So does Ninfan have a "valid point" in your opinion?

And btw note how Ninfan uses his favourite tactic of presenting this as "lefties" ganging up when in fact condemnation of Trump's incendiary comments and lies have come from across the political spectrum, including as I have pointed out from very senior Tory politicians, and the Met Police.

I am not aware however that Trump's supporters, or even indeed Trump himself, have ever claimed that he has been misrepresented by the media, in fact they seem to relish the furore which his comments create.

Thats odd - Ann coulter said exactly the on the video I linked to at 3:28 onwards

I wasted a few seconds of my life listening to that. I repeat, I am not aware that Trump's supporters, or even indeed Trump himself, have ever claimed that he has been misrepresented by the media. Even if you managed to find a clip of some woman claiming how funny Trump apparently is.

Lies such as that the British police are scared of Muslim areas of London and that New Jersey Muslims celebrated 9/11 can be directed attributed to Trump and no attempt has been made by him to claim that he has been misrepresented.

And he stands by his claims that Mexicans have a tendency to be rapists and that Muslims should be banned from the US.

He has not been misrepresented.

I repeat, I am not aware that Trump's supporters, or even indeed Trump himself, have ever claimed that he has been misrepresented by the media.

[i]"That's a typical case of the press with misinterpretation...they take a half a sentence, then they take a quarter of a sentence, they put it all together. It's a typical thing"[/i]

😆

Ok fair enough you've found a genuine example of Trump claiming that he's been misrepresented rather than your previous pointless example, I said I wasn't aware of any.

So is his claim correct? Contrary to you assertion I would be more than happy to consider the possibility that Trump has been deliberately misrepresented and that he hasn't called for Muslims to be banned from the US, or claimed that the British police are scared of Muslim areas of London, or that Mexicans are more likely to rape.

In fact I would be very happy indeed to be told that he doesn't hold those views, why wouldn't I be ffs?

The evidence doesn't bode well though.

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/02/donald-trump-racist-claims-mexico-rapes ]Donald Trump doubles down on Mexico 'rapists' comments despite outrage[/url]

So go on Ninfan.....set the record straight. What didn't he say that people including senior Tories claim he said?

EDIT : Btw much of Trump's comments and views have also been condemned by very senior Republican politicians, despite your ridiculous claim that it's all the work of "lefties jumping up and down".

I read Trump's tweets, perhaps he's been misrepresented on there by himself.

He does refer to himself in the third person. Think about it people....

Who said that !?!

And now the consequences of the Islamophobia which Trump's divisive and bigoted outbursts helps to fuel - British Muslims are banned from visiting Disneyland :

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/12065608/David-Cameron-urged-to-intervene-as-US-bans-Muslim-family.html ]David Cameron urged to intervene as US bans Muslim family[/url]

[i]"Just a week ago, parliamentarians were united in agreement that Trump's views were abhorrent. Now we should do more than shrug our shoulders at secretive American security policies that leave our constituents in such limbo"[/i]

ernie_lynch - Member

And now the consequences of the Islamophobia which Trump's divisive and bigoted outbursts helps to fuel - British Muslims are banned from visiting Disneyland :

Do people still go to Disneyland? Yeap, they should be banned alright not because they are Muslims but because they have bad taste. 🙄

British Muslims are banned from visiting Disneyland :

How did the US department of homeland security work out their religion?

As above, I do think it's interesting that anyone critical of him is seen as a member of the loony left.

At worst he's bigoted and ignorant, at best he's either really badly informed or coldly manipulative. Either way those are hardly desirable traits for a future world leader.

Oh, and on terrorism, he's a hypocrite (apologies if already posted):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/donald-trump/12042955/Donald-Trump-attended-New-York-Sinn-Fein-dinner-before-IRA-London-terror-attack.html

..and don't get me started on his support for the NRA (yes, I know he's not unique in that)...twelve thousand gunshot homicides in the US compared to 40 from domestic terrorism, three hundred mass shooting a year (only one allegedly by Islamic extremists) and he tells the country Muslims are the main problem for national security... if ISIS really want to kill Americans in industrial quantities then they could do worse than throwing a wedge of money into the NRA campaign coffers.

He makes me really angry. Can you tell?

ninfan - Member

How did the US department of homeland security work out their religion?

How about through stereotyping and prejudice, in this particular case the names of the individuals?

After all isn't that what bigotry relies on, ie, stereotyping and prejudice?

In fact it would be brilliant if the individuals weren't even Muslims let alone potential terrorists.

@ernie, the US are entitled to issue or not a visa to anyone as they see fit. None of us have any idea of the real background of the two men leading the holiday party. Nigella Lawson was denied a US VISA as she admitted to taking cocaine a few times in the past. We have no idea of the reason for their refusal, specilating it is because of their name or religion is jist that speculation. I am sorry their holiday has been ruined and the flights are non refunadable but thats the US right to issue a visa undsr their waiver programme or not and to revoke it if they wish

^This. Hopefully the conclusion that everybody's jumping to is wrong! There was some interesting chat about it on PM on R4 just now.

How about through stereotyping and prejudice, in this particular case the names of the individuals?

There could be a thousand reasons - from their previous travel history flagging up as a risk (wildly hypothesising here that there may be a history of multiple visits to ****stan for example) through to previous convictions (sometimes as little as a caution for cannabis posession)

All we have here is 'refused entry' and 'Muslim' and a huge leap to one driving the other.

By the way - have we done Trump saying that we should never have gone into Iraq, and spent the three trillion wasted dollars on our hospitals instead:

Trump comes on @ about 18 min, Iraq discussion at about 24.30 - go on, watch the whole interview, I dare you.

No one is questioning the right of the US jamby just their motive and their reason- not sure why this needed to be stated.
Have you another suggestion as to why the Muslims who were granted a visa had it revoked or do you just want to say we dont know because they have not said

Surely if one refuses a person entry its not unreasonable to be given an reason for this. If none is given we have to guess and we will go for the obvious until informed otherwise.

There could be a thousand reasons - from their previous travel history flagging up as a risk (wildly hypothesising here that there may be a history of multiple visits to ****stan for example) through to previous convictions (sometimes as little as a caution for cannabis posession)

You do know they issued visas and then withdrew them?

WHy am i engaging with the troll bot

Forgive me

Chap on R4 was saying that checks are ongoing between your visa issuance and your flight. I don't know why they were refused, and there might be good reasons for withholding the reason. It's hard to imagine it's anything to do with a tubthumping loony-right would-be presidential candidate though!

Has he pitched in for mayor of London yet we love a comedy character we do.

About time we had film and porn stars TBH.

£700 million then.

Likely a price worth paying!