[Closed] Bad Science - Be Goldacre gets threatened by MMR ignoramuses

Audio is on [url= http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Bad_Science:_Jeni_Barnett_MMR_and_vaccination_slot_on_LBC_radio%2C_2009 ]Wikileaks[/url] for anyone who wants to hear the sound of ignorance.

I'm not sure my blood pressure would take that....

As Jeni Barnett writes in her blog: "Was I ill-informed? Yes."

I got the download of the show in question from the Bad science podcast before it was taken off. It just about made my blood boil. It was full of statements like "I'm just saying..." and "as a mother I think that..." and "why the big fuss over measles it's not that big a deal..."

The really stupid part was that the ignorant so and so was critising doctors for not giving details about side effects of vaccinations (fair enough if that is the case) whilst simultaneously critising them for scaring parents with stories about the real impact of the deseases (i.e. the side effects of not vaccinating.

His Bad Science book is worth reading too.

Ye-es - I mean, he does bring to the public's attention a lot of utter tripe pseudo-science spouted by the media; on the other hand, there was an interesting article about how sets about finding his Bad Science topics. For one particular case (I think it may have been an omega-3 story) he basically said 'I write bad science and I need a topic - please can you send me a short summary of your findings on x'. I kind of went off him after that...

because...?

ive been reading the timesonline talkback about this story and as usual the idiocy and ignorance of some of the respondents on there really winds me up

[url= http://http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article5696902.ece ]times[/url]

it absolutely amazes me that the people that read the daily mail actually believe the sensationalist scaremongering drivel that paper puts out and a decade later so many people still do

It's scary that they've threatened the bloke for posting up an hour of crappy talk radio, which most people probably wouldn't have heard anyway. Respect to everyone who's stuck their head above the parapet and transcribed or hosted a snippet of it, something that blindingly ignorant needs to be brought to wider attention.

To be fair it sounds like she's just stupid - Andrew Wakefield, the doctor whose study (of just 12 children) kicked off the original controversy, had shares in a company producing an unproven rival to the MMR jab, and coined it in by appearing as an expert witness in legal actions brought by the families of autistic children.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece

Not to support threats of violence in any way, but that Goldacre does seem like a rather smug and condescending little know-it-all.

There's something bit pathetic about the way he so gleefully rips apart the sort of flaky new age guff that nobody takes any notice of anyway.

Very few of his targets are as worthy as the MMR naysayers, IMO.

I just read the transcript. Jenny Barnett reminds me of this -
[url]

she sounds perfectly well qualified to discuss scientific and medical subjects.

[i] Jeni trained as an actress and spent the first 12 years of her professional life doing just that, working with the likes of Ken Campbell, Sylvester McCoy and Alan Plater.

Her TV career began on BBC 2's ground-breaking feminist comedy programme Revolting Women. One programme led to another and she was head-hunted for ITV’s breakfast programme TVam. Jeni spent four and a half years at TVam and was famously sacked for breast-feeding her three month old daughter live on air.

She spent nearly five years at London Weekend Television (which included presenting the first ever travelling gardening roadshow!) and nearly five years at the BBC. Jeni has appeared on numerous other programmes including Doctors (BBC), Loose Women (ITV1) and The Wright Stuff (Channel Five). Most recently, from 2002 – 2007, Jeni hosted the UKTV Food’s flagship show Great Food Live (formerly Good Food Live), plus Great Food Bites and Great Food Live Extra. [/i]

chakaping

Very few of his targets are as worthy as the MMR naysayers, IMO.

True, but that is like saying the reporters who broke the Watergate scandal did not do that every week. Everything will have a degree of worthiness attached to it and regardless of that level if something is fraudulent, misleading and has the possibility to con people out of money (Gillian McKeith for example) why should Ben Goldacre not report it?

why should Ben Goldacre not report it?

I'm not saying he shouldn't, or that his targets are in the right - just that he's a bit of a self-righteous pillock.

I'm not saying he shouldn't, or that his targets are in the right - just that he's a bit of a self-righteous pillock

Careful, his sister might come on here to tell you off!

Re MMR anybody else (parents ideally) on here think even the remotest possibility of a link to autism is enough to make separate jabs worth the cost?

It was the cost of an entry level mtb /wheelset as I remember it for my two

In all honesty what swayed me was Tony Blair being unwilling to confirm his kid had the MMR jab...if he'd had it I'm sure we'd have known about it in great detail....sure he and Cherie got the "best" advice not DR's toeing the party line!

'...flaky new age guff that nobody takes any notice of anyway...'

Unfortunately, loads of people listen to it. Because its in print it must be true you see.

In all honesty what swayed me was Tony Blair being unwilling to confirm his kid had the MMR jab...

His wife's a bit of a nutjob though, I can imagine she insisted on some alternative medicine crystal rubbing instead.

Re MMR anybody else (parents ideally) on here think even the remotest possibility of a link to autism is enough to make separate jabs worth the cost?

There is no link whatsoever.

All that has happened as a result of this ill-information is is that the risk of children getting a a disease that could leave them brain damaged or dead (a link very well proven) is significantly increased (cases of measles have increased by about 2000% of the last few years).

"Re MMR anybody else (parents ideally) on here think even the remotest possibility of a link to autism is enough to make separate jabs worth the cost?"

Well there isn't even the remotest link and it has been shown that the Andrew Wakefield made up the data that sparked this whole thing off. Separate jabs do not provide as good protection as the combined one as there is a lower uptake of what would be all six injections. Additionally I don't think that there are any licenced for use in the UK.

Whether or not Tony Blair's yougest son was given the MMR is as irrelvant as it was none of our business. Would you have prefered a scene like John Gummer (I think it was him) feeding his daughter a burger for the cameras at the height of the BSE scare?

MMR anybody else (parents ideally) on here think even the remotest possibility of a link to autism is enough to make separate jabs worth the cost?

That's the issue, isn't it? There isn't the remotest link.

Both my kids have had the combined jab in the last few years. In fact, I had the combined jab two or three years ago, as I was in the age group that missed the final one because of some cock-up or other and there was a mumps case at work so they had a mass catch up.

Unfortunately, loads of people listen to it. Because its in print it must be true you see.

Not his audience though.

And even if they did believe in some of the things he targets, his aggressive and sneering approach is unlikely to win any converts.

My boy had MMR and tbh any parent who does not protect their child from these diseases should be reported to social services. Herd immunity is on the verge of being lost.

We trivialise measles but it is an extremely serious illness that kills many every year.

Pay for seperate jabs, its your cash. There is no eveidence that has been peer reviewed that shows the remotest link.

I won't let my boy eat bread crust because I don't want him to have curly hair.

Conks

his aggressive and sneering approach is unlikely to win any converts.

I think a lot of people find him entertaining and he's very good at explaining logical fallacies and problems with apparently authoritative studies. His blog might be preaching to the converted, but he has a national newspaper column and if he can help get it into the public consciousness that it's not best to take medical advice from daytime TV hosts, talk radio shows or self-appointed experts like Gillian McKeith, then it's a start at least. You might not like his sneery approach, but if there's anything worth sneering about it's the people he targets. Personally if I was him I'd be calling for people like Wakefield to be strung up by their thumbs...

TBs kids did infact have the tripple jab we later found out
he quite rightly said that the medical treatments his young children received were no one elses business

and the whole thing was whipped up by the daily mail and other media scum, any science editor with an ounce of ability or morality would have realised this straight away

wonder if anyone would be able to calculate a ballpark cost in money of the missed jabs, sick children and general hoo ha?

and compare it to how much the nhs saved by a million-odd children having one jab/appointment instead of 3?

were they tied into a contract with the producer of the mmr vaccine? ...as I can't help but wonder if the pragmatic thing to do would have been to offer 3 vaccines to all worried parents rather than have the risks and repercussions of all those cases of measles in unvaccinated kids.

I quite liked the book "Bad Science" but I'm afraid the more of his stuff I read the more he comes across as a smug little twerp. He's dead right about the MMR show on LBC being a good collection of every wrong thing ever said on the subject, but posting over 40 minutes of it goes a bit past fair use IMO.

Cost of the separate jabs was £200 per patient I think. Not to mention giving your kid three lots of injections instead of one, spread over a longer period of time when they're vulnerable, and based on the evidence of nothing except a couple of discredited studies, at least one of which didn't even support the conclusions attributed to it by the media...

" ...as I can't help but wonder if the pragmatic thing to do would have been to offer 3 vaccines to all worried parents rather than have the risks and repercussions of all those cases of measles in unvaccinated kids."

Then all you would have had would be a bunch of people running around saying "see I told you there was a like between MMR autism" and the whole thing would have just fed on itself.

The pragmatic thing to do would have been for the media to actually have read the original article which even with the made up data didn't say that there was a like between MMR and any other condition other than a reduced incidence of Mumps, Measles & Rubella

JulianW ...good idea I seem to recall the single jabs were not UK approved due to cost...going back a bit now

What about proven life saving cancer drugs that the Govt doesn't allow to be prescribed on a cost basis...ok in some postcodes/countries though?

Maybe Tony's mrs was as mad as a box of frogs but she's also pretty intelligent....still think if they'd had it we'd have been told at the time!

I don't care really, if people think I'm niave/gullible it was money well spent for peace of mind...got a mate who's adamant his sons autism is MMR related...reckons he noticed an immeadiate decline after the jab

"reckons he noticed an immeadiate decline after the jab "

Confirmation bias I'm afraid.

Hi Whytetrash.

Well I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here. My little girl (now aged 6) has had NO vaccinations at all. I also would like to say I don't believe this is the forum do discuss the why and wherefore of this sort of choice. It simply can't be discussed in a few sound bites. We spent many months reading deeply and researching this stuff before coming to this conclusion. I believe it was the right decision.

If you really interested, there are groups about the country who have formed up to support this. Now I'll be the first to say that the area isn't run through with quacks and crystal healers. This is unfortunate. Tread carefully to avoid this stuff, and you do find a level of remarkably good science and dedicated study amongst academics who will support these views with solid science to back them up. I am an engineer by profession, and I don't go into these things without reason.

My little girl has had much of the standard childhood stuff which anyone over thirty will probably have had as a child. We are waiting on the Measles, but have seen off Mumps, Whooping cough, German measles and Chicken pox, none of which were serious enough to warrant a doctors visit.

...got a mate who's adamant his sons autism is MMR related...reckons he noticed an immeadiate decline after the jab

Presumably he is also aware that the "symptoms" of autism are usually first seen at around the same age that the vaccinations are administered. Just because a relationship is temporal, does not make it causal.

We are waiting on the Measles

...which is an easily preventable disease that could leave your child with brain damage or worse. I really don't know what to say.

mountaincarrot - just to pick on one particular example, what if she hadn't had German measles? Would you really be a responsible grandparent to send your daughter into adulthood having no immunity against such a disease?

You've got to love fear mongers 😈

And the world is flat.

[i]We are waiting on the Measles, but have seen off Mumps, Whooping cough, German measles and Chicken pox, none of which were serious enough to warrant a doctors visit.[/i]

And it's thanks to people like you that measles is massively on the rise, and many more children will get it, and as a result more children will die. This is what happened oin our generation as they did in our generation. Well done.

What people don't seem to understand is that immunisation reduces the *likelihood* of an individual catching these illnesses - it doesn't make you immune.

Their strength lies in populations, not individuals, where everyone's immunised and the chances of getting the illness drops massively. Introduce one un-immunised child and the innoculations effectiveness is hugely reduced.

I suspect engineering doesn't teach you population dynamics.

Your actions have a massive bearing on your child's circle of friends; I hope their parents know.

What about the parent whos child had the MMR jab around the age of 11 or so, and they immediately got the symptoms of autism? That isnt the usual age for autism to show up, they had apparently been fine until that point.

Coincidence?

i love the way some people decide that certain treatments recommended by the NHS are safe for their children yet others arent

either trust the medical profession or not

mountaincarrot i believe your actions were irresponsible not just regarding your own children but for others as well

a pregnant mother that catches measles has a 20% chance of aborting her child
Siegel M, Fuerst HT, Guinee VF (1971). "Rubella epidemicity and embryopathy. Results of a long-term prospective study". Am. J. Dis. Child. 121 (6): 469–73. PMID 5581012.

After experiencing and looking into the side effects of anti-depressants handed out with abandon by the medical profession, Id say they were often not to be trusted to do what's best for you.

Rich

Let me see the peer reviewed papers; not just some Daily Mail blathering.

Until then, I say "yes" to your question.

Or "B*llocks".

something the government really hasnt advertised (prob because it was a massive cock up at the time) was that early versions of the vaccine were stabilised using mercury. They actually thought injecting mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet) into 12 month old babies was safe. And what they also arent shouting from the rooftops is that mercury poisoning has a lot of similarities with the early symptons of Autism.

Also the leaflets and stuff they keep sending out are tantermount to scaremongering. Basically saying your child could die if it doesnt have these immunisations. What a load of crap one person in 17 years has died in the UK as a result of measles and that was more due to the lung infection he had. If you look carefully at the figures serious illness from measles was at an all time low before the introduction of any vaccines, the government at the time and subsequantly have just been praising themselves for something that was naturally happening.

Its a huge can of worms for which you will never satisfy all parties. I perosnally know of one person who will sware blind his son starting showing autistic traites the day he had the injection and know of someone whose son was in a coma as a direct result of the MMR (and yes that was proven).

If the government actually laid out the facts as they are instead of trying to scare people into having the MMR (soon the be the MMRC) they may have more of an uptake.

bigdawg: you're right in that the direct mortality rate for measles is low.
[url= http://www.unicef.org/immunization/index_measles.html ]Measles infects 25 to 30 million children each year and [i]only[/i] kills around 345,000 children a year[/url]. But the survivors of measles can also be left with life-long disabilities: blindness, deafness or brain damage.

Same with Whooping Cough Virus and others, the death rate had already fell massively BEFORE the immunisation was introduced, due to better sanitation levels, yet that is often overlooked and all the credit is given to the vaccine.

I know its getting off track slightly, but also more people died from the vaccine for pertussis (whooping cough), than the illness itself.

Do you really trust the medical profession that much?

Remember Thalidamide?

grahamS - how many of deaths are of people living in third world countries with bad sanitation and living conditions

[i]mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet)[/i]

It's in your fillings, too.

Mercury poisoning symptoms are different to autism.

You got any proof/papers? A quick google just brings up a load of scaremongering bollocks. Ta.

Measles infections are rising - you telling me that deaths/disability from measles won't rise too?

[i]someone whose son was in a coma as a direct result of the MMR (and yes that was proven).[/i] Yep, in extremely rare circumstances you can get anaphylaxis.

"We are waiting on the Measles, but have seen off Mumps, Whooping cough, German measles and Chicken pox"

I hope you informed your doctor as it is a notifiable disease in the UK (Like Measles).

They actually thought injecting mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet. FAIL.

once again hearsay and anecdotal evidence decide the debate for many while completely ignoring peer review journals and the weight of scientifc opinion

something the government really hasnt advertised (prob because it was a massive cock up at the time) was that early versions of the vaccine were stabilised using mercury. They actually thought injecting mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet) into 12 month old babies was safe. And what they also arent shouting from the rooftops is that mercury poisoning has a lot of similarities with the early symptons of Autism.

There was never any evidence that thiomersal(the mercury derivative used to stabilise vaccines) had any link with autism. It was withdrawn from use in 1999 because some people were have very minor allergic reactions to it (i.e. a red patch where they had been injected). In any case the symptoms of mercury poisoning and autism are very different.

how many of deaths are of people living in third world countries with bad sanitation and living conditions

Even in third world countries, don't you think doctors record the cause when someone dies? You might as well say that everyone who died from measles in those countries is actually shot, or run over.

Just living in an affluent Western country does bugger all to protect you from disease, as recent outbreaks of TB and flu have shown. But it does mean that treatment and prevention are more easily available.

"They actually thought injecting mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet) into 12 month old babies was safe"

Are you talking about thiomersal? If you are then saying that vaccines used to contain mercury is missleading to the point of being a lie. There is no elemental mercury in thiomersal it is chemically bound as either Methyl-mercury or Ethyl-mercury I'm not sure which one. Just because it contains mercury that does not mean that it also has all the toxic properties of that metal. It is no longer used in UK and when it was removed in the US there was no impact on autism detection rates .

"I perosnally know of one person who will sware blind his son starting showing autistic traites the day he had the injection..."

Confimration bias again, correlation is not causation.

"...and know of someone whose son was in a coma as a direct result of the MMR (and yes that was proven)."

Can you explain how the death of one person from measles is not a big deal whilst someone elses coma from MMR (assuming that that was the casue) is?

"If the government actually laid out the facts as they are instead of trying to scare people into having the MMR (soon the be the MMRC) they may have more of an uptake. "

The government have laid out the facts and the facts are that there has been no link found between the MMR jab and autism. That is not to say that there aren't risks, as there are with any medical procedure, just that the risks of having the vaccine are orders of magnitude less than the risks posed by the diseases themselves.

Mountaincarrot I truely hope that if your daughter does catch measles that she is not among the group that have serious complications.

grahamS - how many of deaths are of people living in third world countries with bad sanitation and living conditions

The majority of them, as most of the non-third world countries have good access to immunisation jabs.
Are you implying that measles only kills or debilitates people who have bad sanitation?

[i]There was never any evidence that thiomersal(the mercury derivative used to stabilise vaccines) had any link with autism[/i]

I never said that it did - my point was the resultant damage was similar and that some parents seeing their childs suffering the effects of this may have thought their child had autism.

Why does everyone ask for evidence when previously theyy'll be saying dont believe everything you read on the internet?? - the bit about mercury was actually on the Autism UK website, where they were trying to explain that there probably wasnt any connection between autism and mmr...

And why cant anyone please point out the exact place the MMR/Autism papers were debunked (and not just by a politician saying its ok) and supposedly the doctor who carried out the 'tests' of 12 also says he got it wrong.

The proble with the internet is that you can find somewhere that will say whatever you want.

[i]The majority of them, as most of the non-third world countries have good access to immunisation jabs.
Are you implying that measles only kills or debilitates people who have bad sanitation?[/i]

no only in countries that dont have a decent standard of medical care...

There was never any evidence that thiomersal (or thimerosal as it's also known) caused any damage at all. It was withdrawn as a "precautionary measure" around the same time that a number of studies were completed showing it was safe!

Re the MMR doctor, Andrew Wakefield, his study was never taken seriously by anyone except the media (and the parents he exploited), but there's an article here that sets out how flimsy his evidence was:

[url] http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece [/url]

[url= http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece ]THE doctor who sparked the scare over the safety of the MMR vaccine for children changed and misreported results in his research, creating the appearance of a possible link with autism, a Sunday Times investigation has found.

Confidential medical documents and interviews with witnesses have established that Andrew Wakefield manipulated patients’ data, which triggered fears that the MMR triple vaccine to protect against measles, mumps and rubella was linked to the condition[/url]

Granted not necessarily the best source as it's a media source but the times is one of the better papers.

[i]And why cant anyone please point out the exact place the MMR/Autism papers were debunked (and not just by a politician saying its ok) and supposedly the doctor who carried out the 'tests' of 12 also says he got it wrong.[/i]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

just search autism and mmr

and personally i dont think it gets more unethical than this....

The doctor who first suggested a link between MMR and autism paid children £5 for their blood samples at his son's birthday part

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6289166.stm

[url=www.cochrane.org/press/MMR_final.pdf] and if you don't like the Times article there is this cochrane review of all the MMR studies[/url]

Right that didn't work for some reason so use cut and paste

www.cochrane.org/press/MMR_final.pdf

thats the problem and to some extent my point - we have to rely on the media, be it the times, daily mail or the sun - and in times when people mistrust politicians, big comapanies and even in some cases their own doctor its not surprising that whats happening is happening. Add into that a generation of very young mums who really dont have the inclination to do the research or legwork (and go on the assumption well I didnt have it and im ok then its ok for my child not to have it). I even know of Doctors who have advised a mother (whose child suffers very bad allergies) not to have any vaccinations.

Look at some of the comments in reply to this article in the telegraph - assumedly from an educated part of the populace - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1556883/New-fear-over-MMR-link-with-rising-autism.html

ranging from mmr destroyed my child to dont be so silly and go and have the jab.

I grew up in a pre mmr world, otherwise known as the 70's - loads of kids had mumps measles and german measles and you know what a week later they were back at school showing everyone their scars, no one died, no one went to hospital - so whats changed?

[i]Why does everyone ask for evidence when previously theyy'll be saying dont believe everything you read on the internet??[/i]
[i]The proble with the internet is that you can find somewhere that will say whatever you want.[/i]
I'm asking for evidence in peer reviewed journals, FFS! Scientific papers, in proper, peer reviewed journals with a nice high impact factor. If you think that's the same as the scaremongering hogwash that floods the rest of the internet, then good luck to you in your own little world.

Mercury poisoning and MMR have different symptoms, really.
Go to PubMed and do a search. They're all peer reviewed abstracts of published papers, and as such are sight more believeable than most stuff on the internet. If anything there corroborates your claims, let me know.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

[i]the bit about mercury was actually on the Autism UK website[/i] Written by whom? Is that where you got the "most toxic substance known to man" riff from too?

[i]no one died, no one went to hospital [/i]

Yes, they did. Look it up.

" loads of kids had mumps measles and german measles and you know what a week later they were back at school showing everyone their scars, no one died,.."

Wrong, some people did die. Not in your experience perhaps but that is only your experience not definative evidence.

In my opinion - and its only that of course - Wakefield asked questions about the safety of the MMR vaccine that have not been addressed. He never proved anything and his methodology was suspect but why has no one actually spent time and effort on corroborating or disproving his work?

Instead he was vilified in the press in a most unseemly way and denigrated by politicians leaving the questions he asked unanswered.

If I had a child they would nt have the MMR jab - I am fairly sceptical about both the benefits and risks of innoculations. I do understand the aim of "herd immunity"
There are many differences between how western countries inoculate and what they inoculate for withut much difference in infection rates.

Are you implying that measles only kills or debilitates people who have bad sanitation?

no only in countries that dont have a decent standard of medical care...

Given that there is no cure for the measles then I'm not sure how much a high standard of medical care would help once you have it.

However "In developing countries, 1-5% of children with measles die from complications of the disease. This death rate may be as high as 25% among people who are displaced, malnourished and have poor access to health care." ([url= http://www.who.int/features/qa/53/en/index.html ]WHO[/url]) So clearly access to healthcare does have some bearing.

we have to rely on the media

No you don't - for starters there's the Cochrane Library, which is a charity and impartially reviews medical studies. Here's what they had to say about MMR:

Believe it or not there is such a thing as "good" medical evidence (long term consistent studies involving as many people as possible, with proper unbiased analysis of the results) and "bad" medical evidence (short studies on just a handful of people, with no control group and biased conclusions). Guess which category the anti-MMR studies fall into...

Youre totally missing my point and before I go any further I just want to add my little boy has had the jab last month.

All Im trying to show you is why people are not having the jab and their reasoning behind it. I doubt 95% of the UK even know what a peer reviewed journal even is or where to find one. You could show them 100 studies saying its safe, but it only takes one to say it isnt to undo the work of the previous 100, and thats the one thats going to make headlines and people are going to read.

As I said my little boy's had the jab and to be honest the literature thats sent through regarding the MMR is not very good, relying on scaremongering rather than any facts.

Oh and if mercury isnt the most toxic substance on the planet blame that on my old physics teacher who told me it was when I broke a thermometer and he started acting like ebola had just been released into the classroom...

So that Ukranian politican just broke a thermometer then rather than being poisoned with TCDD (one of the most toxic, but thats what the internet says so may be right).

The conspiracy theorists will be pissed when they hear aboot that.

Peer reviewed scientific publications are where its at. The press can be OK, but a pinch of salt is required. Unfortunately the headline "MMR is not inherently bad! doesn't sell the papers.

Conks

why has no one actually spent time and effort on corroborating or disproving his work?

TJ, go to the PubMed site that Barney links to above and do a search for "MMR Autism". You'll find a shedload of studies, not one of which corroborates Wakefield's findings or backs up the media hand-wringing.

Hi Jeremy

[i]why has no one actually spent time and effort on corroborating or disproving his work?[/i]

I found at least one on PubMed (although linky doesn't seem to work!)

Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study
Mady Hornig,1* Thomas Briese,1 Timothy Buie,2 Margaret L. Bauman,3 Gregory Lauwers,4 Ulrike Siemetzki,1 Kimberly Hummel,5 Paul A. Rota,5 William J. Bellini,5 John J. O'Leary,6 Orla Sheils,6 Errol Alden,7 Larry Pickering,8 and W. Ian Lipkin1*

I'm sure there are others (I haven't got time, again).. there will be many reasons why people haven't leapt to his attack or defence; largely due I suspect to the way that these things are funded. Certainly disproving an already discredited paper isn't what I'd call sexy research 🙂
Or maybe we're just not aware of them because it's not "exciting" and doesn't sell newspapers :-/

[i] You could show them 100 studies saying its safe, but it only takes one to say it isnt to undo the work of the previous 100, and thats the one thats going to make headlines and people are going to read.[/i]

I know; that's what's depressing 🙁

My old physics teacher used to have a 5l beaker of mercury he'd put his hand into....
He's got autism now (joke)

one person in 17 years has died in the UK as a result of measles and that was more due to the lung infection he had

Which of course had nothing to do with the successful programme of immunisation.

bit OT - but can we subscribe to topics again? Ive had this page on refresh all day now!

He's got autism now (joke)

He'll be one of the people posting on here about lining up tyre logos then. 😉

Bigdawg - I think depending on your browser you can do an RSS feed?

my daughter had the mmr I'm a medic and aware of the facts not the hearsay thanks. There is no way i'd expose my child to the risk of encephalitis etc thankyou. It would be nice if other parents did the same to provide adequate herd immunity. In some western countries your kids can't go to school or nursery unless vaccinated, it would be sad if the uk became as authoritarian but it could easily happen if vaccination levels continue to fall.

Barney - I have followed this debate with interest since it started. While I have not read that study you quote I have seen great critism of several studies supposedly debunking Wakefields work. Basically they were not looking for the same thing he was so of course they didn't find it. Certainly the research rushed out at the time of the controversy was as badly flawed as Wakefield weork - it looked at the wrong children in the wrong age group so had no bearing on Wakefield work.

mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet)

Plutonium takes that title IIRC.

Back to MMR, as has been stated try PubMed or Cochrane for peer reviewed papers. Trouble is that unless you are used to reading them they can be a little obscure and full of unuseual terms.

One reason for the link between MMR and autism as the symptoms of autism start to present them selves about the same age as kids are immunised. There are stronger links between Autism and parents who are both of a scientific / engineering bent, also it is predominantly boys who display autistic symptoms so immunising girls should be fine (or show a massive jump in the number of female autistics following the MMR introduction...some thing that I have not been able to find)

SSP

Wife did quite a bit of work with an autistic boy while at uni studdying Psychology and the mother-in-law works for an Autism charity...hence my knowlege in this non-engineering subject!

my experience for what it's worth....

I had mumps & measels as a kid and I'm deaf in one ear as a result

my wife is a peadiatric (sp?) consultant so i would consider her to be well informed... our Son had his MMR last week.