So, Ben Goldacre, journalist with the Bad Science column in the Grauniad, and writer of the [url= http://www.badscience.net/ ]Bad Science blog[/url] has incurred the wrath of the lawyers at [url= http://www.lbc.co.uk/ ]London's Biggest Conversation radio station[/url] for taking an extract from a show where the presenter, [url= http://www.lbc.co.uk/jeni-barnett-3530 ]Jeni Barnett[/url], managed to put back the cause of science (and with it promote the misguided notion that MMR causes autism) by some years.
WTF is it with arrogant dimwits given airtime to which the generally ignorant public has access? Instead of giving them some valuable information that might allow them to make sensible decisions affecting the lives of them and others, instead twonks like Barnett peddle absolute nonsense in relaiton to public health. The media "scare" over combined MMR has resulted in significantly lower rates of vaccination, and with it a rise in measles, a virus which can cause brain damage and blindness.
And LBC has sought to throw its weight around to suppress the valid criticism of this reckless broadcasting? Twunts.
[url= http://www.badscience.net/2009/02/legal-chill-from-lbc-973-over-jeni-barnetts-mmr-scaremongering/ ]More from Bad Science here. [/url]
Audio is on [url= http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Bad_Science:_Jeni_Barnett_MMR_and_vaccination_slot_on_LBC_radio%2C_2009 ]Wikileaks[/url] for anyone who wants to hear the sound of ignorance.
I'm not sure my blood pressure would take that....
As Jeni Barnett writes in her blog: "Was I ill-informed? Yes."
I got the download of the show in question from the Bad science podcast before it was taken off. It just about made my blood boil. It was full of statements like "I'm just saying..." and "as a mother I think that..." and "why the big fuss over measles it's not that big a deal..."
The really stupid part was that the ignorant so and so was critising doctors for not giving details about side effects of vaccinations (fair enough if that is the case) whilst simultaneously critising them for scaring parents with stories about the real impact of the deseases (i.e. the side effects of not vaccinating.
His Bad Science book is worth reading too.
Ye-es - I mean, he does bring to the public's attention a lot of utter tripe pseudo-science spouted by the media; on the other hand, there was an interesting article about how sets about finding his Bad Science topics. For one particular case (I think it may have been an omega-3 story) he basically said 'I write bad science and I need a topic - please can you send me a short summary of your findings on x'. I kind of went off him after that...
because...?
ive been reading the timesonline talkback about this story and as usual the idiocy and ignorance of some of the respondents on there really winds me up
[url= http://http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/david_aaronovitch/article5696902.ece ]times[/url]
it absolutely amazes me that the people that read the daily mail actually believe the sensationalist scaremongering drivel that paper puts out and a decade later so many people still do
It's scary that they've threatened the bloke for posting up an hour of crappy talk radio, which most people probably wouldn't have heard anyway. Respect to everyone who's stuck their head above the parapet and transcribed or hosted a snippet of it, something that blindingly ignorant needs to be brought to wider attention.
To be fair it sounds like she's just stupid - Andrew Wakefield, the doctor whose study (of just 12 children) kicked off the original controversy, had shares in a company producing an unproven rival to the MMR jab, and coined it in by appearing as an expert witness in legal actions brought by the families of autistic children.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece
Not to support threats of violence in any way, but that Goldacre does seem like a rather smug and condescending little know-it-all.
There's something bit pathetic about the way he so gleefully rips apart the sort of flaky new age guff that nobody takes any notice of anyway.
Very few of his targets are as worthy as the MMR naysayers, IMO.
I just read the transcript. Jenny Barnett reminds me of this -
[url]
she sounds perfectly well qualified to discuss scientific and medical subjects.
[i] Jeni trained as an actress and spent the first 12 years of her professional life doing just that, working with the likes of Ken Campbell, Sylvester McCoy and Alan Plater.
Her TV career began on BBC 2's ground-breaking feminist comedy programme Revolting Women. One programme led to another and she was head-hunted for ITV’s breakfast programme TVam. Jeni spent four and a half years at TVam and was famously sacked for breast-feeding her three month old daughter live on air.
She spent nearly five years at London Weekend Television (which included presenting the first ever travelling gardening roadshow!) and nearly five years at the BBC. Jeni has appeared on numerous other programmes including Doctors (BBC), Loose Women (ITV1) and The Wright Stuff (Channel Five). Most recently, from 2002 – 2007, Jeni hosted the UKTV Food’s flagship show Great Food Live (formerly Good Food Live), plus Great Food Bites and Great Food Live Extra. [/i]
chakaping
Very few of his targets are as worthy as the MMR naysayers, IMO.
True, but that is like saying the reporters who broke the Watergate scandal did not do that every week. Everything will have a degree of worthiness attached to it and regardless of that level if something is fraudulent, misleading and has the possibility to con people out of money (Gillian McKeith for example) why should Ben Goldacre not report it?
why should Ben Goldacre not report it?
I'm not saying he shouldn't, or that his targets are in the right - just that he's a bit of a self-righteous pillock.
I'm not saying he shouldn't, or that his targets are in the right - just that he's a bit of a self-righteous pillock
Careful, his sister might come on here to tell you off!
Re MMR anybody else (parents ideally) on here think even the remotest possibility of a link to autism is enough to make separate jabs worth the cost?
It was the cost of an entry level mtb /wheelset as I remember it for my two
In all honesty what swayed me was Tony Blair being unwilling to confirm his kid had the MMR jab...if he'd had it I'm sure we'd have known about it in great detail....sure he and Cherie got the "best" advice not DR's toeing the party line!
'...flaky new age guff that nobody takes any notice of anyway...'
Unfortunately, loads of people listen to it. Because its in print it must be true you see.
In all honesty what swayed me was Tony Blair being unwilling to confirm his kid had the MMR jab...
His wife's a bit of a nutjob though, I can imagine she insisted on some alternative medicine crystal rubbing instead.
Re MMR anybody else (parents ideally) on here think even the remotest possibility of a link to autism is enough to make separate jabs worth the cost?
There is no link whatsoever.
All that has happened as a result of this ill-information is is that the risk of children getting a a disease that could leave them brain damaged or dead (a link very well proven) is significantly increased (cases of measles have increased by about 2000% of the last few years).
"Re MMR anybody else (parents ideally) on here think even the remotest possibility of a link to autism is enough to make separate jabs worth the cost?"
Well there isn't even the remotest link and it has been shown that the Andrew Wakefield made up the data that sparked this whole thing off. Separate jabs do not provide as good protection as the combined one as there is a lower uptake of what would be all six injections. Additionally I don't think that there are any licenced for use in the UK.
Whether or not Tony Blair's yougest son was given the MMR is as irrelvant as it was none of our business. Would you have prefered a scene like John Gummer (I think it was him) feeding his daughter a burger for the cameras at the height of the BSE scare?
MMR anybody else (parents ideally) on here think even the remotest possibility of a link to autism is enough to make separate jabs worth the cost?
That's the issue, isn't it? There isn't the remotest link.
Both my kids have had the combined jab in the last few years. In fact, I had the combined jab two or three years ago, as I was in the age group that missed the final one because of some cock-up or other and there was a mumps case at work so they had a mass catch up.
Unfortunately, loads of people listen to it. Because its in print it must be true you see.
Not his audience though.
And even if they did believe in some of the things he targets, his aggressive and sneering approach is unlikely to win any converts.
My boy had MMR and tbh any parent who does not protect their child from these diseases should be reported to social services. Herd immunity is on the verge of being lost.
We trivialise measles but it is an extremely serious illness that kills many every year.
Pay for seperate jabs, its your cash. There is no eveidence that has been peer reviewed that shows the remotest link.
I won't let my boy eat bread crust because I don't want him to have curly hair.
Conks
his aggressive and sneering approach is unlikely to win any converts.
I think a lot of people find him entertaining and he's very good at explaining logical fallacies and problems with apparently authoritative studies. His blog might be preaching to the converted, but he has a national newspaper column and if he can help get it into the public consciousness that it's not best to take medical advice from daytime TV hosts, talk radio shows or self-appointed experts like Gillian McKeith, then it's a start at least. You might not like his sneery approach, but if there's anything worth sneering about it's the people he targets. Personally if I was him I'd be calling for people like Wakefield to be strung up by their thumbs...
TBs kids did infact have the tripple jab we later found out
he quite rightly said that the medical treatments his young children received were no one elses business
and the whole thing was whipped up by the daily mail and other media scum, any science editor with an ounce of ability or morality would have realised this straight away
wonder if anyone would be able to calculate a ballpark cost in money of the missed jabs, sick children and general hoo ha?
and compare it to how much the nhs saved by a million-odd children having one jab/appointment instead of 3?
were they tied into a contract with the producer of the mmr vaccine? ...as I can't help but wonder if the pragmatic thing to do would have been to offer 3 vaccines to all worried parents rather than have the risks and repercussions of all those cases of measles in unvaccinated kids.
I quite liked the book "Bad Science" but I'm afraid the more of his stuff I read the more he comes across as a smug little twerp. He's dead right about the MMR show on LBC being a good collection of every wrong thing ever said on the subject, but posting over 40 minutes of it goes a bit past fair use IMO.
Cost of the separate jabs was £200 per patient I think. Not to mention giving your kid three lots of injections instead of one, spread over a longer period of time when they're vulnerable, and based on the evidence of nothing except a couple of discredited studies, at least one of which didn't even support the conclusions attributed to it by the media...
" ...as I can't help but wonder if the pragmatic thing to do would have been to offer 3 vaccines to all worried parents rather than have the risks and repercussions of all those cases of measles in unvaccinated kids."
Then all you would have had would be a bunch of people running around saying "see I told you there was a like between MMR autism" and the whole thing would have just fed on itself.
The pragmatic thing to do would have been for the media to actually have read the original article which even with the made up data didn't say that there was a like between MMR and any other condition other than a reduced incidence of Mumps, Measles & Rubella
JulianW ...good idea I seem to recall the single jabs were not UK approved due to cost...going back a bit now
What about proven life saving cancer drugs that the Govt doesn't allow to be prescribed on a cost basis...ok in some postcodes/countries though?
Maybe Tony's mrs was as mad as a box of frogs but she's also pretty intelligent....still think if they'd had it we'd have been told at the time!
I don't care really, if people think I'm niave/gullible it was money well spent for peace of mind...got a mate who's adamant his sons autism is MMR related...reckons he noticed an immeadiate decline after the jab
"reckons he noticed an immeadiate decline after the jab "
Confirmation bias I'm afraid.
Hi Whytetrash.
Well I'm going to stick my head above the parapet here. My little girl (now aged 6) has had NO vaccinations at all. I also would like to say I don't believe this is the forum do discuss the why and wherefore of this sort of choice. It simply can't be discussed in a few sound bites. We spent many months reading deeply and researching this stuff before coming to this conclusion. I believe it was the right decision.
If you really interested, there are groups about the country who have formed up to support this. Now I'll be the first to say that the area isn't run through with quacks and crystal healers. This is unfortunate. Tread carefully to avoid this stuff, and you do find a level of remarkably good science and dedicated study amongst academics who will support these views with solid science to back them up. I am an engineer by profession, and I don't go into these things without reason.
My little girl has had much of the standard childhood stuff which anyone over thirty will probably have had as a child. We are waiting on the Measles, but have seen off Mumps, Whooping cough, German measles and Chicken pox, none of which were serious enough to warrant a doctors visit.
...got a mate who's adamant his sons autism is MMR related...reckons he noticed an immeadiate decline after the jab
Presumably he is also aware that the "symptoms" of autism are usually first seen at around the same age that the vaccinations are administered. Just because a relationship is temporal, does not make it causal.
We are waiting on the Measles
...which is an easily preventable disease that could leave your child with brain damage or worse. I really don't know what to say.
mountaincarrot - just to pick on one particular example, what if she hadn't had German measles? Would you really be a responsible grandparent to send your daughter into adulthood having no immunity against such a disease?
You've got to love fear mongers 😈
And the world is flat.
[i]We are waiting on the Measles, but have seen off Mumps, Whooping cough, German measles and Chicken pox, none of which were serious enough to warrant a doctors visit.[/i]
And it's thanks to people like you that measles is massively on the rise, and many more children will get it, and as a result more children will die. This is what happened oin our generation as they did in our generation. Well done.
What people don't seem to understand is that immunisation reduces the *likelihood* of an individual catching these illnesses - it doesn't make you immune.
Their strength lies in populations, not individuals, where everyone's immunised and the chances of getting the illness drops massively. Introduce one un-immunised child and the innoculations effectiveness is hugely reduced.
I suspect engineering doesn't teach you population dynamics.
Your actions have a massive bearing on your child's circle of friends; I hope their parents know.
What about the parent whos child had the MMR jab around the age of 11 or so, and they immediately got the symptoms of autism? That isnt the usual age for autism to show up, they had apparently been fine until that point.
Coincidence?
i love the way some people decide that certain treatments recommended by the NHS are safe for their children yet others arent
either trust the medical profession or not
mountaincarrot i believe your actions were irresponsible not just regarding your own children but for others as well
a pregnant mother that catches measles has a 20% chance of aborting her child
Siegel M, Fuerst HT, Guinee VF (1971). "Rubella epidemicity and embryopathy. Results of a long-term prospective study". Am. J. Dis. Child. 121 (6): 469–73. PMID 5581012.
After experiencing and looking into the side effects of anti-depressants handed out with abandon by the medical profession, Id say they were often not to be trusted to do what's best for you.
Rich
Let me see the peer reviewed papers; not just some Daily Mail blathering.
Until then, I say "yes" to your question.
Or "B*llocks".
something the government really hasnt advertised (prob because it was a massive cock up at the time) was that early versions of the vaccine were stabilised using mercury. They actually thought injecting mercury (the most toxic substance on the planet) into 12 month old babies was safe. And what they also arent shouting from the rooftops is that mercury poisoning has a lot of similarities with the early symptons of Autism.
Also the leaflets and stuff they keep sending out are tantermount to scaremongering. Basically saying your child could die if it doesnt have these immunisations. What a load of crap one person in 17 years has died in the UK as a result of measles and that was more due to the lung infection he had. If you look carefully at the figures serious illness from measles was at an all time low before the introduction of any vaccines, the government at the time and subsequantly have just been praising themselves for something that was naturally happening.
Its a huge can of worms for which you will never satisfy all parties. I perosnally know of one person who will sware blind his son starting showing autistic traites the day he had the injection and know of someone whose son was in a coma as a direct result of the MMR (and yes that was proven).
If the government actually laid out the facts as they are instead of trying to scare people into having the MMR (soon the be the MMRC) they may have more of an uptake.
bigdawg: you're right in that the direct mortality rate for measles is low.
[url= http://www.unicef.org/immunization/index_measles.html ]Measles infects 25 to 30 million children each year and [i]only[/i] kills around 345,000 children a year[/url]. But the survivors of measles can also be left with life-long disabilities: blindness, deafness or brain damage.