[Closed] Bad Driving- what's the answer?

Very troll

He even said as much in the last line.

How disappointed will he be on return if there are only a couple of posts and no argument?

Well we have schemes in place to deal with it. Traffic law, licensing and fines points bans.

The answer - tougher enforcement and mandatory retesting periodically

I blame the driving instructors.

You may think so, Mung-Bean, but people blether on about relatively isolated cases of bad cycling, yet every single time I am on the road, I witness bad driving. I have to be on my wits at all times, lest I become the victim of some idiot in a car.

So, not a troll at all. I'd genuinely like to know why folk kick up a fuss over some knob on a push bike, when a far greater problem is millions of knobs in motor vehicles.

How disappointed will he be on return if there are only a couple of posts and no argument?

I woon't be surprised at all, TBH. People are very quick to criticise the behaviour of others, yet not so quick to examine their own behaviour, or consider that they themselves are actually part of a problem. Always someone else's fault, when it comes to driving...

Make everyone speed.

I tend to be far more alert when driving too fast as I am watching out for the police.

Can we get the mods to delete this thread and pretend that it led to a huge row and so got removed?

Compulsory retests ever five years would help - amazing how many people round here seem to have no idea what the speed limit is (toddling along the dual carriageway at 40-50mph) and don't know how to go around a roundabout properly (start in the left lane, swing across 3 lanes into the middle of the roundabout, get to exit, swing back across 3 lanes) 😯

They should be forced to drive with you in the passenger seat.

If they continue to offend then TJ & Cynic-Al go in the back seats.

Ban all non-essential car ownership?

Dunno about that, but my utopia would be walking, bikes, rickshaws, Taxis and Busses only in city/town centres. Rise in car clubs. Private vehicles banned from on street parking. Better free parking provision.

Some jobs require cars. A district nurse needs to get about to homebound patients etc. A tradesman needs to lug his tools and materials around. You don't need 90% of the populace driving their own cars about for every journey.

get rid of speedometers and speed limits. drive at whatever speed you feel is safe.

I'd genuinely like to know why folk kick up a fuss over some knob on a push bike, when a far greater problem is millions of knobs in motor vehicles.

Mostly it's all about perceived rights. As in cars have more right to use the road. And the 'your holding me up' thing.

You may think so, Mung-Bean, but people blether on about relatively isolated cases of bad cycling, yet every single time I am on the road, I witness bad driving. I have to be on my wits at all times, lest I become the victim of some idiot in a car.

So, not a troll at all. I'd genuinely like to know why folk kick up a fuss over some knob on a push bike, when a far greater problem is millions of knobs in motor vehicle

'cos that knob is usually you and folks would kick up a fuss over you no matter what form of transport you used?

I like driving cars in much the same way I like riding bikes.

Why ban my fun?

Better public transport would probably help. By that I mean cheaper and more extensive.

Just ban people from leaving the house. Problem solved. The amount of posting some people do on here, I suspect this sanction has already ben applied 😉

The Spanish know how to deal with this sort of thing [and Contador's doping] by simply acquitting them because 'that can't be right'

http://www.euroweeklynews.com/news/costa-blanca-south/skilled-drunk-driver-acquitted.html

Its easy.

Year 1: Insurance companies provide a black box (possibly at a fixed cost) to the driver in return for a substantial reduction on their policy. Said box contains a simple camera that records say 12hrs rolling footage whenever the ignition is on. Stores date when a collision is sensed or when the driver pushes a button.

Year 2: Insurance companies make it a standard requirement and increase premium if you opt out.

Year 3: Becomes compulsory.

I use an app on my phone which just records footage in a continuous loop until it detects an impact or I tell it to save it. That, combined with a company GPS tracker has improved my driving no end. I wasn't an idiot before but did tend to speed a bit outside built up areas, and although I don't get 'the rage' I would show my disgust to other drivers if I though they deserved it, which occasionally results in a reaction such as return gestures or brake checking etc.

Don't get any of that anymore, more relaxed, find myself cruising along at 56 in the inside lane rather than charging down the outside lane at a speed limited 70mph, and I even manage to ignore blatant cutting up and people causing you to brake hard by pulling out in front of you. The only downside is by retiring from the fast lane, the middle lane hogs become a much bigger obstacle 🙂

Good driving.

Flying cars

A public service advertisement campaign, on all the channels and in cinemas.

Ad 1 - how to indicate on roundabouts.

Ad 2 - motorway lane discipline.

Ad 3 - vulnerable road user awareness.

Ad 4 - speed kills.

You get the drift...

You get the drift...

Good idea, we should have an advert on how to drift too...it would make the morning much more interesting if everyone could get the back end sliding round roundabouts.

CharlieMungus - Member

Flying cars

I'm not convinced you're taking this seriously;

[img] http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1HSHM01kCWT32Ff5gKIIYBL5PscV3ZRrDYMud-MgqOFHseSvbUw [/img]

And one for Phil...

[img] http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAkjeJxkpzTnSsGt3j3TWdz4Eh5n5ax41ivxq9PUu8QP1z3oMp [/img]

mandatory kiddie trailers behind each car, containing driver's first born.

And the spike on the driving wheel.

All company owned or paid for vehicles to have the companies name on the back and sides, a quick phonecal to the boss usually slows them down.

Ban women drivers between 8.30 and 09.10 daily and between 3.00and 4.00.

Make all children catch a bus to school,or walk or even cycle on the quieter roads.

Fill in all recessed bus laybys.

Stricter enforcement of speeding.

Cheaper rail and bus fares.

get rid of speedometers and speed limits. drive at whatever speed you feel is safe

Yeah cos that really works in Germany doesn't it? 🙄

Every driven on a country lane? They are effectively unlimited because 60mph is usually unattainable. And people drive terribly on them and there are plenty of accidents.

More enforcement - more cops, better powers for them to slap something on you based on video evidence.

They should be forced to drive with you in the passenger seat.

If they continue to offend then TJ & Cynic-Al go in the back seats.

No chance - I think you'll find that contravenes the Geneva Convention for Human Rights.

I think you'll find that contravenes the Geneva Convention for Human Rights.

Torture? 🙂

there is a gadget being fitted more and more in the states that records video 30 seconds each side of a crash or emergency stop. Thats a good idea IMO

http://www.roadhawk.co.uk/car-black-box-recorder.html

Then you must be at a real disadvantage having to go out there only half prepared all the time.

'cos that knob is usually you and folks would kick up a fuss over you no matter what form of transport you used?

Nice. Just resorting to personal insults rather than actually attempting to think about the question. How very grown-up. 🙄

Seems to be a bit of a taboo subject, challenging bad driving. No-one wants to admit they are a bad driver, but most of them are.

This video Dez posted on TJ's thread shows an incident that is typical of urban driving, and something I witness virtually every single time I use my bike on the roads.

Yet one fixie twit being a knob raises mass hysteria....

Well you started the name calling, were you doing it in a grow-up way?

Raise petrol prices so people can't afford to drive.

Oh, looks like the government is already doing this, awesome!

Traffic policing became 'unfashionable' some time ago. Due to budget constraints (not cuts mind, but the way money was allocated) many Police forces, mainly county forces, had to adopt a 'double hatting' approach to the utilisation of traffic cops. Traffic policing is a very complex area of law, which seems to have more legislation than actual crime and disorder; hence the reason specific traffic departments existed.

Most police gaffers know that the home office and the public wouldn't readily accept the wholesale disbandment of traffic, so formed what are often called 'Roads Policing', or 'Roads Crime Units', under the premise that "these officers do far more than mere traffic policing". E.g. "Policing the county's roads for criminals on the move", "educating the public in driver and roads safety", "investigating fatal & life altering RTC's", and the worst of all "supporting local officers with attendance at immediate incidents". I say worst because everyone is always short staffed with not enough bobbies to attend the number of incidents being reported, meaning ex-traffic cops are always tied up at domestics etc.

Basically, what this meant is that budgets were re-allocated, specialist cops were de-skilled, and the roads in many areas of the UK are now left un-policed. This is what we're now seeing - driving standards are definitely falling, despite crippling fuel prices traffic volume is rising; virtually nobody is doing anything about it.

Well you started the name calling, were you doing it in a grow-up way?

Did I? Well, just cos I'm immature and childish is no excuse for you to act the same...

Interesting post, Mildred.

Unfortunately, there is no answer to bad driving that allows for the continuing use of motor vehicles. There is something about being in an enclosed box, with masses of instant power and speed available to a person, that drives people temporarily psychopathic. Motor vehicles are inherently anti social. Various studies have shown that we can no longer communicate non verbally over 30mph. We lose empathy for others. I've seen the most placid, peaceable people get angry and frustrated in cars, almost every time I get a lift in a car the driver breaks the speed limits.

The problem is endemic, and only a full scale and permanent shift away from motoring will stop it. We need to reduce speed limits, increase enforcement of traffic law, raise oil prices, reduce parking spaces massively, pedestrianise urban centres: we need a real war on motoring.

But then I'm a hippy who rides bikes everywhere, what do I know.

If everyone had a couple of pints before they got behind the wheel they would feel much more relaxed and confident, which would surely help.

The problem lies in people's perception of their 'rights'.

I'd like to see a fixed number of cars allowed, with businesses and private users given a 'passport' type thing which allows them to use the road. Rather like the carbon credit thing in the states, businesses could trade the passports as needed.

Any traffic violation would see the suspension or removal of the passport as well as criminal proceedings were necessary.

The problem is endemic, and only a full scale and permanent shift away from motoring will stop it. We need to reduce speed limits, increase enforcement of traffic law, raise oil prices, reduce parking spaces massively, pedestrianise urban centres: we need a real war on motoring.

Interestingly, I think most of this is already being done by the back door, but so gradually that folk simply adapt as time goes on. For example, quite a few towns and cities are adopting the parking fees scheme, that levies a charge on companies for each parking space.

I personally don't agree that speed limits need reducing. True, some people seem to consider the limit to be the minimum, but if you look at most urban environments there is so much traffic that everyone creeps along anyway. Just as painful to the daily commuter are the drivers who creep along in the outer lanes even when the traffic is flowing along nicely. This causes others to be impatient and that's when bad driving rears it's ugly head; folk trying to get past other inconsiderate drivers.

I do believe driving is now becoming prohibitively expensive, but I think that the normal everyday driver is bearing the brunt whilst the less honest simply offset fuel cost by not taxing testing or insuring their cars. Bilking (making off without paying) is incredibly easy too, and fuel companies and garages do virtually sod all to stop it.

I'm convinced we need a swing back towards specialist traffic policing in great numbers. Folk are a lot less likely to offend when the chance if being caught goes up by a large degree.

Any traffic violation would see the suspension or removal of the passport as well as criminal proceedings were necessary.

Like a driving license? 😆

Perhaps the government and safety campaigners should drop their focus on SPEEDING for a start. SPEED KILLS - my a*se!

It's bad driving that kills, end of. A bad driver can be unsafe at any speed whether that's 20mph, or 100mph. Speed only comes into it when it's inapropriate speed for the current conditions - regardless of what the legal limit is.

It's a shame that with such a big focus on SPEEDING and traffic policing by camera, that if I'm a drunk, drugged, uninsured, texting, tailgating, no MOT'd, erratic, clueless, inconsiderate driver then really there's never been a better time to take to the road without getting caught.

Compulsorary re-tests every 10 years would be a start together with more police on the road monitoring SAFE DRIVING, rather than just SPEEDING.

Yup agree with in principle, however it is worth noting that speed is a almost always a factor in crashes aswell. Its possible to have a slow speed fatality, but a lot less likely. Speed is the easiest area of bad driving to address via enforcement and safety campaigns etc and don't see this ever changing significantly...

A lot of drivers can't drive safely at the correct speed, but speed makes them a lot more dangerous.

Tailgating, driving with the mobile to the ear and lane indiscipline are all worthy challengers but speed is the biggy!

My wife finally passed her test on her 7th attempt a month or so ago - switched over to an auto for her last few tests in an attempt to get through. I got her a little Kia Picanto then started to go out with her, no idea how she managed to pass. Scares me everytime doing something stupid and could have had us in bad accidents a few times if it wasn't for a bit of luck and me sorting the problem out. If she'd been left on her own to drive I dread to think what could have happened. Trouble is I don't think she was improving when learning as had plateaued ages ago and it was just going to be luck when she got through. Slowly improving now I think.

Compulsorary re-tests every 10 years would be a start

Not really. I could easily pass a test then go out for a skinful and drive home whilst texting and changing the CD, could I not?

if I'm a drunk, drugged, uninsured, texting, tailgating, no MOT'd, erratic, clueless, inconsiderate driver then really there's never been a better time to take to the road without getting caught

If you were all those things, you would probably have very little regard for the speed limit too.

I'm in agreement with Northernstar; its inappropriate speed that kills, not speed per se. If you're doing 100mph on a motorway and get it wrong, you'll generally bounce along down the road until you either slow down and stop or go off the road and hit something solid. Statistically motorways are the safest roads to drive upon, and they're also the fastest. Based on the propaganda that justifies revenue raising cameras, this seems counterintuitive. This is because speed in this context is not inappropriate, whereas Johnny Boy Racer down the local trading estate/mcdonald's/Kentucky fried chicken on a Sunday night having a drag race with his sad vector buddies is.

All these schemes to put [i]further[/i] legislation in place are pointless when there us nobody out there to enforce them; we already have a ridiculous amount if traffic legislation, we just dont enforce it robustly enough.

bad driving - what's the answer ?

line them up and shoot the lot of them ?

Kev

Not really. I could easily pass a test then go out for a skinful and drive home whilst texting and changing the CD, could I not?

Yes but regular re-testing does help to maintain standards because they just become habit. Drink driving is slowly becoming less and less acceptable - it used to be quite normal largely due to attitudes about drinking, how it wasn't cool to be seen with a Coke or alcohol free beer.

Problem is that the "right" to drive is so entrenched. It's been so good for so long. I remember 20 years ago my Grandparents "going out for a drive" just because they could. But when that perceived right is taken away, all hell breaks loose. We've become so dependant on it, the motoring/oil lobbies are so powerful and it brings in such massive amounts of tax revenue that it's political suicide to try and meddle with it.

Doesn't help that even the courts are part of the problem. Mowed down a bunch of cyclists in Rhyl? "No problem sir, that's £180 for having some bald tyres, off you go now"
Killed a cyclist at a junction? Yes, the A-pillar of my hired Landy didn't allow me to see him but I need the car for my job. OK, 3 points and a fine, be careful now.

I think the major thing that would help is a change in the law to the "presumption of liability" that they have in some American States and various European countries. The fault in any collision lies with the bigger vehicle until proven otherwise. That would make a massive difference.

Oh and pay-per mile roads too. Do away with "Road Tax", cut fuel duty, introduce pay-as-you-drive.

It's bad driving that kills, end of. A bad driver can be unsafe at any speed whether that's 20mph, or 100mph.

Agreed, but if you're a "good driver" doing 100mph and a "bad driver" pulls out on you doing 20mph then you'll be right but just as dead.

No matter what any Clarkson-wannabees say, speed definitely does kill.

Nick, you are wrong I'm afraid. Speeding is a primary contributing factor in only a surprisingly small percentage of accidents. Googling this seems to give results of between 30% and 2% depending on whose statistics you believe. For arguments sake lets just take the middle ground and say 16%.

The danger of focusing so much of our attention on speeding is that it's such a convenient mask for the real problems out there.

The real danger is that drivers are getting more and more brainwashed into driving by their speedometers and not by assessing the road conditions, hazard perception etc. People are starting to think - well so long as I don't speed then I must be a safe driver. This is clearly absolute rubbish.

To prove a point, a work colleague was injured a while back in an accident (not seriously though thank goodness). A van came round a sharp bend at 50mph (60mph limit road) and ploughed right into the back of her stationary car stuck in traffic. Conditions at the time were wet, greasy and slightly misty.

Do you know what the first thing he said to the Police when they arrived? I was only doing 50 sir - I wasn't speeding!

Technically no he wasn't speeding. Yet he was driving at 50mph in conditions where the safe speed would have been somewhere around 30mph. But in his eyes, the fact that he wasn't speeding made everything okay?

Crazy.

Speeding is a primary contributing factor in only a surprisingly small percentage of accidents.

Ahem:

At least one [contributing factor] of "exceeding the speed limit" and "travelling too fast for the conditions" was reported in 13 per cent of all accidents and [b]these accidents accounted for 27 per cent of all fatalities[/b].

-- [url= http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/accidents/casualtiesgbar/rrcgb2009 ]Reported Road Casualties Great Britain 2009: Annual Report (ONS/DfT)[/url]

If 27% of fatal accidents involve someone going to fast then I think it is fair to say that speed kills.

The answer - tougher enforcement and mandatory retesting periodically

I would also like to see a retest within the first year of passing the basic test as a 'double check', as it is obvious that some new drivers are totally incompetent but somehow managed to scrape through. How many 'friends' have sat tests on others behalf, I wonder?

My particular hates at the moment is the drivers who maintain a steady 45mph regardless of the road conditions/speed limit and others who apparently [b]never[/b] check their mirrors. I counted 6 drivers in 4 miles yesterday, who pulled out to overtake the cars which had moved over to the left to let me pass as I was on 'blues and twos'. Evidently the new sequence is manoeuvre-signal-mirror followed sharply by the panicked jerk left on the steering wheel and washing of underwear (hopefully).

People are starting to think - well so long as I don't speed then I must be a safe driver. This is clearly absolute rubbish.

This bit I agree with though.

I think that as demonstrated on here most people know that you can be not speeding but driving badly.

The 'I was only doing 50' thing is a defensive reaction. It's not that they genuinely believe that it's ok do whatever the speed limit is - it's that people know they've done wrong they get on the defensive and try and focus on anything that might have a positive attribute, no matter how ridiculous.

Agreed, but if you're a "good driver" doing 100mph and a "bad driver" pulls out on you doing 20mph then you'll be right but just as dead.

To be honest GrahamS, a good driver should not put him or herself into a position where 'unexpected things happen'. Good driving is about forward perception of the actions of others, assessing the road ahead and behind for hazards and driving at a speed appropriate for the conditions.

I'm not saying that random things never happen, that would be silly, but the vast majority of accidents on UK roads would be avoided by drivers just 'thinking ahead' and planning accordingly.

100mph should be perfectly safe on a quiet motorway in dry conditions. Similarly 25mph down a busy high street may be far to fast when there's likely to be children around. Safe driving is more about driving to suit the conditions rather that whether you're breaking the speed limit or not.

There is no answer if it involves money and somebody having to do something

To be honest GrahamS, a good driver should not put him or herself into a position where 'unexpected things happen'.

That's not entirely possible all the time as you accept, so it's a bit of an empty comment.

Safe driving is more about driving to suit the conditions rather that whether you're breaking the speed limit or not

Yes of course but many people do not have the required level of judgement. And speed is one of the only things we can measure and legislate easily on. Hence speed limits.

GrahamS, I'm not saying that there are no accidents where speed is a contributary factor. All I am saying is that the current focus of SPEED KILL is masking the real issues regarding SAFE DRIVING.

If the media and pressure groups was as keen to focus on say 'tailgating' or 'middle lane hogging' or 'drug driving' or 'texting whilst driving' then that would make me a lot happier. It's far too easy for them just to rely on the shock tactics of the SPEED KILLS thing without them having to get off their a*ses and address the real issues behind bad driving.

I completely agree with you NorthernStar - I only disagree on the point that speeding isn't a problem.

Yes, speeding on a dry quiet motorway is obviously a less risky than speeding on lesser roads in worse conditions.

Unfortunately I'd say the vast majority of drivers I see on my daily commute are speeding on NSL, dual, 50's and even 30's. If you try to drive at or below the limit you'll quickly get someone tailgating and flashing their lights.

So their "need to speed" is actually causing more bad driving

There was a big campaign about mobile driving, wasn't there?

And in any case, it is true that if everyone kept on doing the exact same bad driving as they do now, but slowed down a bit, there'd be fewer fatalities.

Whatever accident you have, caused by whatever act, the consequences will be less severe if lower speeds are involved.

Yes of course but many people do not have the required level of judgement. And speed is one of the only things we can measure and legislate easily on. Hence speed limits.

Yes and should those without the 'required level of judgement' really still be on the roads?

This is where a compulsorary retest every ten years would help keep people's skills current. Much the same as an airline pilot spends hours every year re-training and in simulators.

Whatever accident you have, caused by whatever act, the consequences will be less severe if lower speeds are involved.

What's the solution then, limit all cars to 20mph?

stick everyone on a 50cc scooter for a year before they can go for a car licence

if you accrue points

back to the scooter you go ....

Umm.. not that draconian. How about.. 30mph in towns, 60mph on the open road and 70mph on motorways? Of course that doesn't reflect the exact driving conditions, but it's the only legislative option we have at the moment.

Yes and should those without the 'required level of judgement' really still be on the roads?

No, definitely not. But how do we weed them out?

stick everyone on a 50cc scooter for a year before they can go for a car licence

I like this 🙂 Improves awareness of bikes and other road users and gives a suitably low speed intro to the roads.

The only problem is you end up with novice drivers in the most vulnerable vehicles and people learning to drive a car then spending a year on a scooter and forgetting it all. Apart from that it's a great idea 🙂

20 mph urban limits with the "empty roads" unsigned / unmarked roads of the Netherlands would go a long way

the "empty roads" unsigned / unmarked roads of the Netherlands

Can you rephrase that please? 🙂

Regular retests.

Much the same as an airline pilot spends hours every year re-training and in simulators.

More traffic police would be nice, better prosecution and punishment of bad drivers. Some woeful failings from the courts in the last few years.

Speed causes crashes and is a determining factor in the damage caused by a crash so I'm happy with an emphasis on keeping speed in check. Only an idiot thinks they can drive however they like as long as they are under the limit.
More ad campaigns other than speed/phones/drink, not sure I've ever seen a "middle lane hogging" ad or a "watch out for cyclists" (motorcyclists yes)
Re-education of drivers is important and somehow getting rid of the cyclist hate plenty of drivers seem to have, no idea how you do that tho.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf

forklifts every 4or 5 years innit - although mines an american ticket ... digger tickets expire also

"people learning to drive a car then spending a year on a scooter and forgetting it all."

ifyou had the threat of ending up back at scooterville im sure youd soon remember how to drive sensibly;)

overtaking also causes alot of incidents

when i drive in i use the stonehaven netherley road which is a B road - its also a National cycle network road.

yet we have artic lorrys driving it at rushhour doing 20mph up the hills because they cant go any faster- you then get johnny late for work in his powerful audi overtaking on a corner/blindhill - ive come round corners and had to emergency stop due to stupid overtaking (and i wasnt speeding i was driving a 1980 landy ... i challenge anyone to speed in it)

similar on the a9 on sunday - chap overtaking and ended up with a car coming towards an no room to move in - forced him self inbetween 2 cars that were not a car apart !

Scooters of course being a great place for young people to learn responsible road craft, as anyone who's been to say Paris or Rome will testify 🙂

weeds out the stupid by way of natural selection .....

no protective box. drive safe or die - i could be in parliment with a catch phrase like that 😉

A turbo charged hot hatches with no seatbelts and rubbish brakes for all drivers under 30, the natural selection works.

No seatbelts or airbags. Big spike in the centre of the steering wheel.

Car drivers feel too safe in modern cars. Make 'em feel vulnerable

Somebody up there mentioned the perceived "right to drive", and I think this contributes.

My dad always taught me that driving is a privilege, not a right, and I hold that dear, to this day.

Addressing this concept, and having people appreciate that they're in charge of a potentially lethal weapon when driving, is the key for me. It's not about specifics like speed, phones etc, its all of those things together with the fact that if you get it wrong, you might kill someone...

Move to Murcia, no-one gives a shit how badly you drive and the world is peachy.

Right from the very beginning of learning to drive, get across that the roads are a system for cooperation, not competition.

It is not about your personal "right" to do as you please (speeding included) - it is your responsibility as a road user to do everything you can to make the whole road system flow - Not just you.

In particular, any blatant act which defies the natural flow of the road should be heavily punished. Overtaking by hopping a line of cars (where exactly are you going?), driving closer than two seconds from the car in front (three or four seconds gap is much more comfortable - just get used to it), etc.

similar on the a9 on sunday - chap overtaking and ended up with a car coming towards an no room to move in - forced him self inbetween 2 cars that were not a car apart

More blah blah blah