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and will not be releasing the same amount of particulates as an old and inefficient one.
Might not be releasing as much as an old one, but still releases loads. I can taste woodsmoke in the garden whenever anyone in the street has their wood burner going and they're all DEFRA approved 'clean' ones. They still pump out a load of particulates.....
Might not be releasing as much as an old one, but still releases loads.
I fully accept that - and it is EXACTLY that information I would like to know, not just 'LOG STOVE BAD. If it turns out I am pushing silly levels of pollutants up the chimney and inside the house I may well rethink my use of one but I am not about to incur the cost of replacing it if it turns out the levels are relatively small. Either way I know I won't be installing another if we move / ours fails.
The only time my stove door is closed is when I leave the house, never had an issue with blowing down or soot/particulates building up but I do have a 904 liner and decent pot on top - recently had it's first sweep since being fitted in 2013, got less than a dustpan of debris out of it. Every house/cottage I lived in as a kid (argyll/galloway) had open fires in every room (no such thing as central heating nor gas) that were used constantly in winter, it used to be my job before school to clean them out set and light them, along with the splitting of logs/kindling. Always been drummed into me to only burn well seasoned wood which is where I imagine the majority of issues comes from.
Does it make lighting it and getting it to draw when the chimney is cold harder too?
Sometimes it struggles a bit, but always lights ok. I guess occasionally the chimney will be full of cold air sat there and it just takes a while to shift it.
Always been drummed into me to only burn well seasoned wood which is where I imagine the majority of issues comes from.
You'll still pump out particulates even with well seasoned wood. I suspect in a commercial furnace with exhaust filters etc you can clean a lot of it up, but compared to Gas etc, it's always going to be much worse.
Seeing as the air source heat pump that was fitted to the house back in 2013 does the grand sum of ****-all heating wise despite being on for 24hrs day then ill continue to use my wood burner.
@johndoh cheers, I'm on my phone so couldn't find anything useful. It still doesn't seem particularly proscriptive nor does it explain what emission levels equate to each tier. I'm still sceptical because at the end of the day it's a trade body scheme. I'd bet on them using optimal fuel for the tests, whatever burns best whilst meeting the conditions (less than 25% moisture is a lot of leeway, my table says <20% for air dried and 0% for kiln dried).
That think about baffles and such makes sense, again, increase the efficiency of combustion and something else will pop up to ruin your day (in an ICE's case NOx).
Wow in the UK wood burning stoves release more small particulates than all the cars on the road!
*shrugs shoulders and tosses another log on*
I have always assumed that anyone living in a UK city burning wood was breaking the law.
Aren't all UK urban areas smokeless zones?
https://www.gov.uk/smoke-control-area-rules
The list of exemptions is extensive. As George Monbiot says, if this was mainly a "working class" thing, it would likely have been banned completely.
https://smokecontrol.defra.gov.uk/fuels.php
Not all urban areas are smokeless zones.
Wow in the UK wood burning stoves release more small particulates than all the cars on the road!
There is more to this quote than our man George says. But he never lets context, or details get in the way of a good antagonistic story
There is more to this quote than our man George says. But he never lets context, or details get in the way of a good antagonistic story
And neither do you, by the looks of this 27 word takedown
Be interesting to see the research to support both sides of this claim. Anyone seen any?
The research is there, any energy system involving combustion releases CO2, SO2 and NOX as well as, yes, particulates. Most of these can be controlled and in a regulated environment they mostly are. As soon as Mr Smart 2 doors down gets involved all bets are off.
I would have thought that smoke is bad for your health was a given. As is the claim that smoke isn't generally good for the environment.
I can't imagine any research suggesting otherwise.
It’s amazing how attitudes differ when it come to super polluting wood stoves compared to say, fracking. Absolute hypocrisy.
It’s amazing how attitudes differ when it come to super polluting wood stoves compared to say, fracking.
I think you're making your own conclusions up here.
Wood burning stoves are not, when used properly, bad. Urban, slow burn, crap fuel and poorly used stoves are.
Of course they are polluting, it's inevitable when burning carbon! What's important is the fuel cycle and whether or not it increases net CO2. Local conditions can be mitigated with proper controls and regulations.
What’s important is the fuel cycle and whether or not it increases net CO2.
By using wood for fuel you are still creating CO2, wood is far better used in construction so the CO2 is captured.
Wood burner yes, a double combustion jotul, and I'll continue to use it until there's an excess of decarbonned electricity in Europe or I'm incapable of using an electric chain saw.
Our local swimming pool and Madame's school just connected to an urban heating network which runs on waste most of the time with supplementary wood burning boilers in peak demand periods.
Camper vans no
2nd cars - two between three adult drivers
3rd cars no
Hot hatches no
4WDs no
Motor bikes no
Spare rooms - no but working on one in a self-build super insulated extension
Hot tubs no
Mancaves no
Dogs no
Motorbikes no
Plastic grass no
Block paving no
Wood burning stoves are not, when used properly, bad. Urban, slow burn, crap fuel and poorly used stoves are.
Of course they are polluting, it’s inevitable when burning carbon! What’s important is the fuel cycle and whether or not it increases net CO2. Local conditions can be mitigated with proper controls and regulations.
The issue seems to be whether they are used properly, what % are not? And the documents (Whitty, etc.) seem to suggest that even the good ones are still polluting and it's NOT just the net CO2 that is important but small particle pollutants as well.
There does seem to be a bit of defensiveness among the stove users, which touches on the Monbiot point. I know it's a different thread but I'll ask again here - I like the idea from an aesthetic pov as much as the energy efficiency or whatever else but these reports are putting me right off. Has anyone installed and regrets it now (and is big enough to admit it!)
This guy ^ does some particulate testing in his video. No idea if any use to anyone but it was interesting.
it is - thanks. The particulates section is labelled in the video timeline and although he is clearly a pro woodburner, the data from his counter is interesting as is the (independent) data from the air quality monitoring.
I thought this video was very interesting , thanks.
On a related but entirely unscientific point, I live in a densely-populated area packed with terraced houses. Our house is at the bottom of a hill and when I’ve finished cycling home in the evening I smell of woodsmoke (my wife has even commented on it). So yes, this guy is clearly burning his wood the ‘right’ way, but I reckon there are a significant number of people who aren’t (or at least there are around me).
but I reckon there are a significant number of people who aren’t
Guy 2 doors down the road from us isn't. The thick smoke coming from the chimney at times ranges from announcing a new pope, to a bonfire of car tyres. If the wind is in the 'wrong' direction, we have to keep all windows shut etc.
Wood burning stoves are not, when used properly, bad.
They're still grossly polluting even when used properly.
with what? The linked video suggests that making toast is significantly worse (albeit, you make toast for 3 mins at a time)
Study and lobbied action sponsored by Big Oil 🙂
I’m not sure that his video proves that there isn’t a lot of particulate matter somewhere else while he’s using his word burner (ie coming out of the flue). Just because that particular spot in his garden is ok doesn’t mean that there isn’t somewhere downwind that is significantly affected. Yes making toast makes more particulate matter for a short period of time in a small area, but it probably isn’t poisoning your neighbours.
Particulate measuring equipment in the automotive industry is spectacularly expensive, I wouldn't personally trust a screen on a PCB some guy off YouTube made up compared to the weight of evidence generated by professionals. Next thing you know he'll put it next to a euro 3 diesel and claim it's cleaner than the Scottish Highlands.
Has anyone installed and regrets it now (and is big enough to admit it!)
Yes no, sort of.
We've got a Clearview of some description. Supposedly hetas approved. Supposedly really good. We burn dry wood, with plenty of venting.
It stinks. There's no way of getting away from it. You go into the garden when it's lit some days and it stinks.
Objectively speaking we shouldn't be allowed to use it. They should be banned from builtup areas.
But the wife likes it and our hovel of a house is shitky insulated, so we use it.
We are selfish ****s.
I think they will (should) be treated a bit like diesel vehicles and clean air zones introduced in built up areas.
No massive harm in rural areas where they appear to be very useful, if not close to essential for some people.
No need in a major town where pipped services are available
Has anyone installed and regrets it now (and is big enough to admit it!)
Yes and No.
We have a Clock Sudbury (HETAS approved, all new stoves need to be IIRC) we burn only dry wood, from our own stock ora reputable supplier but still check it with a moisture meter and restack and use the driest first (it’s all under 20% moisture anyway) we light it top down (Scandinavia way) to ensure the flue is heated early in the cycle. There is very little smell outside and rarely the faintest whiff inside after opening and refuelling (usually when there is a very strong northeast wind).
Do I regret installing it? No it’s better than freezing, it’s less co2 and a net zero vs the tree growth than my only other option which was oil.
I live in the sticks have 2 (human) neighbours (many deer and animal neighbours though) I can’t smell the neighbours stoves either. If was ina town or built up area would I have one? Hell no. Situation and options are important considerations imho.
Even in remote rural areas the smoke affects those of us with lung conditions such as asthma. As soon as I can smell smoke in the air around the house from other peoples chimneys I know it's start of not being able to breathe season. Its a comparable trigger for me as living amongst the low air quality in London and using the tube daily, which often resulted in my not being able to walk down the road without struggling to breathe. I like breathing, so not a particular fan of all these chimneys guffing out harmful smoke. I'd like to see wood burners reduced everywhere, not just for selfish reasons when you recognise the increasing prevalence of asthma (12%+) - but we need credible alternative heating sources, better insulated homes and the obvious investment in energy infrastructure - something this country always seems to be a decade or two behind where it could be. I still see the coal lorry going up the road on a regular basis...
Even in remote rural areas the smoke affects those of us with lung conditions such as asthma.
I have chronic Asthma and have been on medication for it for about 40years. Does my (or my neighbours) stove exacerbate it? Can’t say I’ve noticed any increase in my needing my medication (Budesonide and the usual Ventolin) but hey we’re a sample size of 2. My Asthama was certainly worse before I had any credible heat source in the home though.
with what? The linked video suggests that making toast is significantly worse
The video just shows if you chose the wrong metrics you get wrong results.
The inside measurements missed a key point. If you see the measurements spiking then its time to worry not about particles but about carbon monoxide or dioxide poisoning since it would suggest its venting into the living space.
Outside what I would be wanting to see is at the actual chimney and not some random point in the garden. Unless there is a serious inversion then chances wont start dropping in his garden.
I sometimes go paddling near a canal which has lots of canal boats on it. In the wrong conditions it absolutely reeks of smoke from their stoves and can be actively unpleasant.
the wrong conditions it absolutely reeks of smoke from their stoves and can be actively unpleasant.
Most of whom burn coal due to the energy density Vs their storage restrictions.
My brother and sister were asthmatic. Both had to carry ventolin inhalers around and we had frequent visits from the docs.
As soon as they left home they both stopped being asthmatic and their health improved generally.
Did we have a log burner or open coal fire causing this. Nope, we lived in a cold damp 1800s rented place with a couple of oil fired rads and ice on the window plus black mould on the sils, walls, curtains, behind wardrobes.
Heating with a log burner probably would have heated the place up above the dew point so they might not have got ill.
Wood burning stoves are not, when used properly, bad.
I'm wondering if the article has been read by many commenters. Monbiot was for wood burning stoves environmentally, but even when used properly the mere act of opening the door releases potentially huge amounts of toxins into the living environment. Yes, in use, if the door was never opened or could be externally loaded, they'd be fine. But that's not generally the case. I'd love a fire to sit and stare at but health wise I'd never do it in my own home.
but even when used properly
Yes I’ve read the article, it’s quite clear he wasn’t using his properly, idling it overnight is a really bad thing for pollution, yet he said he does this. Run your stove hot let it combust properly and built the fire top down the Scandinavian way and you minimise the requirement to open the door and refuel often.
Open and close the door very slowly and if you have a chimney that draws well nothing will come back into the room.
To answer a couple of points.
Yes, carbon is better captured in construction, I absolutely agree with that. But just like you wouldn't use any old stone for building you wouldn't use any old timber for construction. If you grow coppice then, in theory, you should be using it at the same rate as you capture it.
Yes, it releases more than just CO2, I said that in my last post.
See also urban or predominantly sheltered areas. Falls under the "used properly" clause.
But for all folk wax lyrical about doing it properly and actually doing it you just know some prat within a mile will be flinging pallet wood and any old shite in and letting it smoulder overnight.
I don't have one, nor would I unless I had a need and lived in a suitable area. They are not perfect but like any solution perfect should not be the barrier to better.
huge amounts of toxins into the living environment.
Hyperbole alert.
I doubt those owning log burners are wading around in layers of PM2.5s up to their thighs but the point is a sound one.
Plenty of folk looking at this stuff on youtube with actual monitors.
Its easy to see that opening the door does contribute markedly to a worsening of indoor air quality. They don't really dwell on their setups much though.