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7. Try and source locally produced wood, sustainably felled, or waste, not stuff shipped in from Europe.
8. Nothing is perfect, but make a choice and do the best you can
Nothing is perfect, but make a choice and do the best you can
This again and again.
6. - going to try that. Stove has been struggling to get going a bit for the last week or so. Could be it needs a sweep (set ordered for a diy job) or it could be that it's not got above -2 outside for the last week.
7. - that's my reasoning behind burning mostly softwood. Very little commercial hard firewood here (highlands) that is not being imported from Sweden. Seems to tip the balance environmentally too much towards not great.
Just thought, what effect on particulates might different woods have? Eh a resinous pine Vs a dense hardwood. They burn quite differently so I'd imagine it could be quite different.
9. Which balances with 3, reload while you have a hot bed of coals big enough to heat the new fuel and achieve a 'clean' burn quickly
And bacon, that too shortens your life
I've never heard a rasher statement!
On the question of different woods the main thing is to have a stove that is intended to burn the type of wood you use. Scandanavian stoves such as Jotul with their double combustion design and high air flow allow burning pine at high temperature which is not only good for air quality but means you won't have a chimney dripping with kreosote and tar. Beach and birch will burn clean in almost any stove.
The latest research shows that domestic wood burning is now the main source of UK particulate air pollution, and wood burners triple the amount of particulate pollution inside homes.
Light hearted comment edited out cause life's too short.
That article is a little light on detailed facts (ie, the effects of using a modern stove with proper ventilation using well seasoned wood in a hot stove versus an old stove with wet wood and smouldering).
That article is a little light on detailed facts (ie, the effects of using a modern stove with proper ventilation using well seasoned wood in a hot stove versus an old stove with wet wood and smouldering).
It's the guardian what do you expect?
It’s the guardian what do you expect?
A summary of the research with links to the relevant articles for those who wish to get into the details. Which is what they've done.
Still, I expect folk will continue to kid themselves that their stove couldn't possibly be contributing to the problem.
That article is a little light on detailed facts (ie, the effects of using a modern stove with proper ventilation using well seasoned wood in a hot stove versus an old stove with wet wood and smouldering).
Isn't that like trying to split car pollution figures into sectors for those that drive like a little old lady and those that 'make progress'.
For every person using perfect seasoned logs there will be loads chucking any old shite in them as long as it burns.
Isn’t that like trying to split car pollution figures into sectors for those that drive like a little old lady and those that ‘make progress’.
Well yes, they do that (although not as you describe, but similar) - VED penalises vehicles with higher emissions and people can make informed choices about their purchase.
Still, I expect folk will continue to kid themselves that their stove couldn’t possibly be contributing to the problem.
Well no, it isn't like that though is it. The point being that someone with a new and efficient stove using well seasoned fuel is not contributing as much as someone burning fence panels and fresh wood.
The point being that it isn't a case of having / not having a stove just as it isn't about having / not having a car, it's about having the information to make informed decisions.
and wood burners triple the amount of particulate pollution inside homes
Since the first article a few weeks back I've been looking at ours and everytime you open the door, you get a big gulp of smoke exit the wood burner into the room. The baffle at the top, which creates the secondary combustion chamber, directs smoke towards the front of the stove where it curls round the baffle and exits. This has the side effect of directing the exhaust towards the door. I can believe its dumping a load of PM10s etc into the room.
Well no, it isn’t like that though is it.
I believe it is. "Not contributing as much" is little more than an exercise in turd polishing.
It found almost half of those burning indoors were affluent and many chose a fire for aesthetic reasons, rather than heat.
This report is basically saying that for a large amount of wood burners the main utility is how they look rather providing heat.
The Car analogy would be buying a sportscar you don't need and driving it around in circles because you like the noise it makes.
Only in rural areas and the stoves should have the equivalent of the probe in the exhaust pipe MOT emissions test.
Probably a stop on new installations of them soon.
ie, not a ban, but regulated and phased out.
Since the first article a few weeks back I’ve been looking at ours and everytime you open the door, you get a big gulp of smoke exit the wood burner into the room.
What happens when you open the door a crack, then slowly open more and more to let the air flow react and redistribute?
“Not contributing as much” is little more than an exercise in turd polishing.
But without helpful information for users (like myself) it is difficult to make an informed decision because I know for a fact that my stove is efficient and will not be releasing the same amount of particulates as an old and inefficient one. If I could easily find out how much (or little) compared to what is considered dangerous I may reconsider having it. Right now it is hard to find this level of information out other than knowing the obvious things like using well-seasoned wood (I do), operating the stove at a suitable temperature (I do), having adequate ventilation (I do). Am I at 1960s V12 Ford Mustang levels of emissions, 2020s 1.0T Ford Fiesta levels or somewhere in between?
If you want to monitor particulates there are cheap units on ebay. I bought this one: Air Quality Detector PM2.5 PM10 PM1.0 Detectors Portable Tester for Home Car and I've been using it in the workshop for dust. Seems to work, in that it goes up and down as I use various tools. Can't vouch for the accuracy but from a bit of youTube research they seem OK
What happens when you open the door a crack, then slowly open more and more to let the air flow react and redistribute?
It seems to release less if I let it fire at full gas before opening the door. Quite often all the air vents are at minimum and its cooling off when I open it to stick a fresh log on. In that scenario it burps the most soot. If I let if fire up for a few seconds beforehand, that seems to minimise it.
Although without a detector, it's all rather subjective.
I also notice that there's always a layer of ash on the mantlepiece.
I am half tempted to pull the tongue out, grind an inch off the front and stick it back in...
@nickjb
Ahh - I had no idea those were available. I shall be getting one. Thank you.
I also notice that there’s always a layer of ash on the mantlepiece.
We never really have a great deal of dust or signs of soot damage to walls/ceilings (despite it being used daily since late October even more than ever this year due to lockdown). Yes there is sometimes a little dust but nothing alarming.
interesting that the latest defra uk clean air pm2.5 research from december last year clealrly shows overall reduction in black soot pm 2.5, howver there is seasonal increas during winter, but the evidnece is not clear enough to link to single source as black soot pm2.5 also takes into account all industrial combustion and deisel particulate. interestingly there is also data within the report showing elevated nox levels tracking with the pm2.5 emission again linking to vehicle emission as a signoficant part of the emission. to claim that it is purely as a result of domestic solid fuel combustion is unfortunately not supported by the peer reviwed data. interestingly the seasonal variation can also be linked to weather conditons holding industrial emissions for longer rather than dispersion you see in the summer months and souces from mainland europe. its a really nice report showing all of tue errors estimates and assumptions. available as a free pdf.
@tazzymtb got a link for that?
The only DEFRA info that popped up when I did a quick Google directly contradicts what you seem to be saying. https://deframedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/02/21/government-takes-bold-action-to-cut-pollution-from-household-burning/ "With wood burning stoves and coal fires being the single largest source of the pollutant PM2.5 – emitting twice the contribution of industry and three times the contribution of road transport"
I'll stop using my wood burner when energy companies stop inflating their prices over winter.
I had no idea those were available.
But you just said in your previous post that you knew for a fact that your stove doesn't emit as much particulates. Either you know how much particulate it's pumping out or you don't.
I'm not trying to have a go here but this is how we got to diesel gate. Everyone took it in blind faith that everything was fine, they were told that it wasn't but ignored the evidence because it suited them until eventually a political authority (rather then actual scientists) bust it wide open.
I’ll stop using my wood burner when energy companies stop inflating their prices over winter.
Have you never heard of a fixed price tariff?
I'm not advocating banning them BTW, particulates are only a problem if you allow concentrations to build up. We should however be looking at where any why they are being burnt and addressing that.
We never really have a great deal of dust or signs of soot damage to walls/ceilings (despite it being used daily since late October even more than ever this year due to lockdown). Yes there is sometimes a little dust but nothing alarming.
This is us too. 10 cubic metres of wood has gone into the stove this winter and virtually no dust to speak of.
I too will look to get a meter though.
Broader point - environmentally we are still happy that sustainably managed wood burnt efficiently for heat is overall better than fossil fuels (in our case lpg)? Living very much in the countryside burning wood sourced locally (not shipped in from Sweden as it appears some local suppliers do) I have little concern about the particulate emissions through the chimney but it would only feel right to investigate the air quality inside the home too.
Footflaps - my stove behaves in the same way. I close vents right down then crack the door for 20 seconds, then slowly open to put a new log in. This minimises the smoke into the room but doesn't eliminate it. Never had it on other stoves so I was assuming it was because of the curved glass door.
Kinda related.
Say if you lived in an old house, with fireplaces in more or less every room. 7 I think.
Can you sensibly seal these up, e.g. remove the chimney stack completely? As much as I appreciate the novelty of hail falling in the kitchen as it did a couple of days ago, it’s bloody noisy in here when the wind is up.
I have exactly the same problem.
I don't see what we can do, except get rid of it, probably down to ceiling level, then insulate.
Pretty much that. Seal the stack at the top and make sure there is a ventilation route for the remaining parts.
People really have burners that beltch visable smoke into the room?
I don;t run mine fully shut off like you are doing but even when on low I do not get anything entering the room that is visable to the naked eye, never mind smoke.
I assume these are old burners?
But you just said in your previous post that you knew for a fact that your stove doesn’t emit as much particulates.
It is a fact - it is a modern DEFRA approved unit (Parkray Aspect 4) which gets a ClearSkies score of 5 (5 being the highest score available).
But I would still like to see how it performs in our room. I don't see anything wrong in that.
But without helpful information for users (like myself) it is difficult to make an informed decision because I know for a fact that my stove is efficient and will not be releasing the same amount of particulates as an old and inefficient one.
The informed decision is to stop using it.
The informed decision is to stop using it.
Are we back here again?
It's an inconvenient truth. The justification is no more than "my Euro 4 diesel is fine because some people drive a Euro 3".
It is a fact – it is a modern DEFRA approved unit (Parkray Aspect 4) which gets a ClearSkies score of 5 (5 being the highest score available).
Uh huh, and looping back to my dieselgate point, under what conditions were those certification tests carried out? What fuel? What moisture content? What cycle? Where were emissions measured from? What were the weather conditions?
The reality is you have no way of knowing what you're putting out, just because it passed a bench test on the day doesn't automatically translate to real world use conditions.
That site doesn't seem to have any informative links to testing criteria so how can you make a judgement on a subjective 5/5?
Can you sensibly seal these up, e.g. remove the chimney stack completely?
Easiest/cheapest to put a vented stopper (pepper pot) in each chimney pot, prevents rain ingress but allows a limited amount of ventilation through the chimney.
Uh huh, and looping back to my dieselgate point, under what conditions were those certification tests carried out? What fuel? What moisture content? What cycle? Where were emissions measured from? What were the weather conditions?
The reality is you have no way of knowing what you’re putting out, just because it passed a bench test on the day doesn’t automatically translate to real world use conditions.
That site doesn’t seem to have any informative links to testing criteria so how can you make a judgement on a subjective 5/5?
Here you go - the link was at the bottom of the page
It’s an inconvenient truth. The justification is no more than “my Euro 4 diesel is fine because some people drive a Euro 3”.
Not really, it's saying 'my Euro 4 diesel emits fewer harmful emissions than a Euro 3 does'.
Buy a new 2022 compliant woodburner and all will be well with the world....
Sadly not, that's quickly becoming the best way to increase emissions into the room. It may, arguably, make for a cleaner environment outside the house, but that's debatable too.
First off, there will be harmful emissions when humans in cold climates want to be warm. That's just a fact of life. See also transport, food and other essentials.
Doing what we can to minimise these is a good thing.
My tuppenceworth?
The cleanest way is to have a decent, fairly recent, stove with a hot air intake. Loads of these available going back at least twenty years. Clearview is a good example, there are plenty others.
Couple that with a decent chimney, (with a damper), proper fuel, and an educated / enthisiastic operator and you'll have a very good outcome.
What makes a SIA / 2022 stove that bit more efficient? In part, multiple baffles to help grab as much heat before it disappears up the chimney.
They burn really nice, so let's maximise the fire view by keeping the smoke hood part of it nice and minimalist.
When the lovely big dooris opened, the smoke has a choice of spilling out the door or taking the now tortuous route up the chimney. More and more often now, it will take the route straight out the door into the room regardless of how hard the chimney is drawing.
The test only takes into account burning, not refuelling. Go figure....
Getting back to the damper, HETAS now discourage the use of these. IT must be assumed that everyone is too dim to get their head round the concept so best just not go there.
The damper does what that extra baffling does in the new stoves, makes it much more controllable and efficient. The key thing though is that you open it before opening the door, then close it again after.
I have one on my own stove and it transformed the burn. No smoke escapes into the room, and there's no extra dust in the vicinity. Open the stove door with the baffle closed and smoke will pour into the room.
Burley had a go at making a stove which had a moveable baffle and a door operated hood which dropped into place when the door opens. It was a bit clunky and crap though. It was close to being good, but just needed a bit of tweaking.
Some of these new stoves are totally unfit for purpose as sold but manufacturers seem to be burying their heads in the sand passing on blame for poor performance to installers. This will ultimately backfire though as installers refuse to fit their stuff.
Off the record, they will just tell customers to remove the top baffle. Not much chance of getting that in writing though..
Modern woodburner with well seasoned, locally sourced wood, burnt efficiently to provide heat (not just decoration) to a well insulated house. On balance, better or worse than cranking up the gas central heating? Not just particulate but overall environmental impact...
Need to look into this. Bought ours last year, a stove that met what were the future changes.
A stove was also factored into our house renovation.
My missus has been working from home, and the stove has been superb. We've had our heating right down and restricted as much as possible.
I also noticed that when I was building our dormer at no time could I see or smell smoke? Only a haze was visible.
I bought one batch of top quality wood. But I've accumulated at least three years worth of oak and ash that has all been free. The local tree surgeon would rather someone collect the big stuff, so he can simply shred the small stuff.
People really have burners that beltch visable smoke into the room?
I don;t run mine fully shut off like you are doing but even when on low I do not get anything entering the room that is visable to the naked eye, never mind smoke.
I assume these are old burners?
Yep, it's a modern Defra approved one. Stovax Stockton 5.
It seems to be a side effect of meeting the clean air regs, the tongue which creates the secondary combustion chamber restricts the exhaust path, which is what I assume is causing the smoke to escape when you open the door.
According to the studies referenced above it's a very common thing with wood burners polluting the room when you open them.
Yep, it’s a modern Defra approved one. Stovax Stockton 5.
It seems to be a side effect of meeting the clean air regs, the tongue which creates the secondary combustion chamber restricts the exhaust path, which is what I assume is causing the smoke to escape when you open the door.
Does it make lighting it and getting it to draw when the chimney is cold harder too? We have a next Stove coming in the next 12 months when we renovate. Our venerable old thing is easy as anything to operate but is cracked and bodged. Moving the whole chimney is part of the development so it's inevitable it'll be time for a new stove too.