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I live in the countryside and sometimes when I take the dog out at night the air can be horrible
If power stations have to have filters fitted I don’t see why homes shouldn’t too It all adds up.
Just got back from morrisons to a thick fug around our house, coming over neighbours roof. Went to check the house wasn't on fire as I couldn't see any lights on, but no its belching out of his chimney and settling all around the gardens.
My eyes are watering and I'm coughing just from unloading 3 bags of shopping from the car (and not particularly susceptible to that kind of thing).
So yes I'm wading around up to my thighs in pm2.5s and no I don't need vehicle industry monitoring equipment to tell me that 😉.
Sadly there's plenty of people who haven't got a clue how to use a stove effectively, but don't know that themselves. So how do we get the message across? Instruction with new stoves would ba a small start, but would take a huge campaign and legislation perhaps to capture existing users.
How about council wardens with a Ringelmann chart? Seems like a good start that would flag up all sorts of issues with fuel and combustion quality.
Sadly there’s plenty of people who haven’t got a clue how to use a stove effectively,
Even used properly, they still belch out carcinogenic PM10s. They just need to be banned outright.
My eyes are watering and I’m coughing just from unloading 3 bags of shopping from the car
So burning coal or treated wood then ?
Even used properly, they still belch out carcinogenic PM10s. They just need to be banned outright
I assume you mean in areas with a credible affordable alternative? Some of us use wood as it’s the most cost effective and available fuel we have(and the majority in this situation know how to use their burners effectively), no? Ok I’ll just freeze to death?
Ok I’ll just freeze to death?
Don't be so melodramatic.
huge amounts of toxins into the living environment.
Hyperbole alert.
"Potentially"
I have never associated wood burning stoves with fuel poverty.
Should I assume that spiralizers to make "courgetti" is a sign of pasta poverty?
Some of us use wood as it’s the
fuel that isn't supplied by overhead lines which frequently go down.....usual in the coldest times of the year...
Open and close the door very slowly and if you have a chimney that draws well nothing will come back into the room.
How do you clean out the ash?
With a purely wood burning stove there is very little ash, we clear it out once a week when the stove is out and use it for fertiliser on the garden.
Don’t be so melodramatic.
People die from the cold in towns do you suggest this doesn't happen in the rich countryside where everyone is just burning wood for a laugh at the world?
There is plenty of fuel poverty in the countryside with little credible alternative, most of the people I see on a daily basis are over 60, driving beat up cars, live in old single skinned houses with limited insulation options. Have no mains sewerage, no mains gas, and extremely unreliable electric at this time of year when it’s stormy.
So I’ll continue to be ‘melodramatic’ or realistic as I prefer to call it.
Ban stoves and wood burners in towns I’m all for it. There is no need for them, except aesthetics, or burning free stuff which shouldn’t be near a stove. For many though there is a real need for wood as a source of fuel.
How do you clean out the ash?
If you using it correctly with wood only, there should be so little ash left at the end of a burn that it will need cleaning out maybe weekly. I use a small vacuum and the waste goes into the compost heap.
Our neighbours have an oil drum set up under a tarp in their garden. They burn foliage, cut offs, fence panels, all sorts. Environmental health have been round to ask them stop. But it turns out they use it to cook because they can't afford to run their oven. So there's nothing EHO are prepared to do. They have it shouldering away every day.
Nothing to do with wood burning stoves, just putting it out there.
But it turns out they use it to cook because they can’t afford to run their oven. So there’s nothing EHO are prepared to do
what a horrible situation to be in, is there nothing you (and the other neighbours is there are any) can do to help these poor folks?
How do you clean out the ash?
Slowly and carefully into a bag held in the stove doorway about once a week. There's sufficient draw even when the stove is out to stop dust getting back into the room. I phoned the recycling center to ask them what to do with it and they told me to put it in the incinerables bin in a bag (I use old resealable musli bags).
I'm asthmatic too but don't insist on the neighbours cutting down their Silver Birch or other things that provoke it - now there's a win win idea - no more Silver Birch pollen and wood to burn.
People die from the cold in towns do you suggest this doesn’t happen in the rich countryside where everyone is just burning wood for a laugh at the world?
I see you've shifted from talking about yourself to other people. Which is it?
I guess you need to re read the Monbiot article, which specifically references the need to support people who genuinely lack alternatives.
@Edukator why no motorbikes? Online calculators suggest a mid-size bike generates 30% less CO2 per annum than a small car (up to 500cc and 5000 miles or Fiat Punto 1.2 used for comparison). I deliberately used a mid-size bike to avoid 2-stroke complicating the issue as they are notoriously dirty.
They're more space efficient in an urban environment than a vehicle too.
I see you’ve shifted from talking about yourself to other people. Which is it
I don’t exist in isolation, I’m made of the same stuff as my neighbours and the rest of humanity. I and my neighbour and their neighbours (and so on) are as susceptible to the cold and the environment as each other. To think my comment only applied to me and me alone is beyond missing the point.
I’m quite sure all of us rural living folks (not in million quid Cotswold homes) would love a credible alternative. The simple fact is we currently don’t have one, that’s a quite a simple fact. We have wood burners out of necessity (be that Aga, Rayburn, Simple stove) as without them we would frequently have nothing.
Understanding this is important, we don’t have wood burners for aesthetics. We have them as without we would literally have nothing affordable to heat and cook on.
Those who have oil or propane tanks are hardly using them as they can’t afford to fill them. The price of off grid supplies is uncapped and unaffordable except for the rich.
why no motorbikes?
Fine if they are electric but at present they are noisy and filthy:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060101155000.htm
30% less CO2 than a Punto but more than a Zoé with 2/5 of the passenger capacity. You do better comparing with a Twizzy.
My "nos" simply indicated things I don't own on the list.
@mickyfinn - your "remote fuel poverty" argument is bunkum.
I live remotely, have no connection to gas, sewage, unreliable electricity and the house I moved into has no boiler, is poorly insulated and bloody cold.
I have/am doing these three things in order:
1) Buying warm clothes and blankets.
2) Insulating my house.
3) Getting rid of the coal fire and putting in an LPG tank and efficient boiler.
If I really can't live without "fire" then I can get a faux burner. Either way - it's much cleaner and significantly cheaper than burning wood.
Those who have oil or propane tanks are hardly using them as they can’t afford to fill them. The price of off grid supplies is uncapped and unaffordable except for the rich.
Gosh, if only I'd said:
I guess you need to re read the Monbiot article, which specifically references the need to support people who genuinely lack alternatives.
BTW, plenty of domestic urban gas and electricity supplies are uncapped but I guess that doesn't suit your narrative.
LPG tank and efficient boiler.
Interesting choice. Hope you have achieved near passivhaus on your insulation or that will sting.
Had a 3 year old LPG set up back in 2011 and it was financially crippling even on a 2 bed cottage recently refitted to modern (at the time) insulation standards.
@chevychase so because you have the money to do those improvements then everyone else who lives remotely has? That’s a strange argument.
@ransos the only narrative I have is that mine doesn’t fit yours. Saying something needs to be done (which we agree on) doesn’t mean it is being done. I’ve read the article, Monbiot says some sensible things and spoils them by showing he has no idea how to use (after many years of use) the system he installed, which he now regrets.
Yes plenty of uncapped supplies in urban areas mostly for business tariffs but still unaffordable for many. However as a percentage of the none business community the rural populace rely on an uncapped supply way more.
I’ve said many times ban burners where there is a credible alternative (in towns and cities certainly for a start) and until that credible alternative appears in the countryside us user of burners will just need to be sensible in our use of them to minimise pollution (which I have never once said doesn’t happen, it’s just needs to minimised and controlled) if I and my fellows with no other option have to live with the consequences then that’s the way it currently is, until…
The funny thing is a smokeless zone in a city does not mean you cant burn wood in a stove. You are not alowed to release smoke from a chimney yet wood stoves that are compliant with regulations are fine. Even a Zero emission zone does not prohibit burning wood in a stove. I live in a city where there are LTN and bus gates etc going in all over. I work in the city centre next to a street where a bus gate is going in and another one where there is a zero emision zone soon to be expanded to our street. The neighbour as well as the pub up the road burns wood in their stove daily from October till March.
So after all the expense and disagreements over these traffic measure the air I breathe for a large portion of the year is full of particulates and there is nothing I can do about it.
Q to council-
Hi,
Will the ZEZ only apply to vehicles or will there be additional restrictions on domestic heating using stoves and polution from chimneys?
A from council-
The ZEZ Pilot is just about vehicles.
Thanks
Fuel poverty is an issue everybloodywhere at the mo, let's be honest.
Makes sense to think about legislating to control wood burners in urban areas first though. And I'd expect it to be via a separate instrument than motor vehicle restrictions anyway (to address the post just up there).
Fuel poverty is an issue everybloodywhere at the mo, let’s be honest.
Makes sense to think about legislating to control wood burners in urban areas first though. And I’d expect it to be via a separate instrument than motor vehicle restrictions anyway (to address the post just up there
Absolute sense spoken on Singletrack I must have passed away and not noticed 😁
Interesting choice. Hope you have achieved near passivhaus on your insulation or that will sting.
Had a 3 year old LPG set up back in 2011 and it was financially crippling even on a 2 bed cottage recently refitted to modern (at the time) insulation standards.
Can afford solar if I can get it past the national park (big if) - a big enough installation (with batteries) that I'll be fully electric from April>September, and then I'll have to use LPG when it turns cold and dark.
@mickyfinn - running cost of gas is still cheaper or cost-equivalent to wood per KwH. If you factor in the fact that the harmful particulate emissions is the equivalent output of 750 cars sat running outside your house then it's kind of a no-brainer.
The reason people use log burners is that they like them. But then people like smoking cigarettes, despite knowing that cigarettes are the direct cause of death in half the people who smoke.
BTW - am aware that there'd be a lot more crap in the air if you actually lived in a 750-car car-park with all the engines running - but cars scrub a lot of particulates and log burners don't.
Yes plenty of uncapped supplies in urban areas mostly for business tariffs but still unaffordable for many.
I specifically referred to domestic supplies. Anyone with communal or district heating... likely those least able to afford it.
The reason people use log burners is that they like them. But then people like smoking cigarettes, despite knowing that cigarettes are the direct cause of death in half the people who smoke.
There's more than a whiff of cognitive dissonance in this thread: disregard any facts inconvenient to your beliefs and preferences.
In the interests of disclosure, I eat meat despite knowing it's bad for me and the environment.
@ransos you're just talking zealot bollocks. There is nothing objective in your argument.
Oh, by the way...
https://exodraft.co.uk/product/particlefilter/esp-particle-filter/
All this talk of stoves.... Are you including all the biomass CH systems as well - you know, the ones that get the renewable heat incentive payments?
(And open fires, bonfires inc bonfire night, controlled heather burns, etc)
@Edukator a 2006 paper? I'm reasonably sure that motorcycle engine technology has moved on since then. Many are now Euro 5 or 6 compliant. The noisy ones tend to be on aftermarket pipes or larger than 500cc and how often do 4 wheeled vehicles carry more than one person?
Cars have a disproportionate effect on the urban environment due to their size in most situations 2 wheels will be a more efficient use of the available space.
Despite what some on this thread would have you believe the pricipal source of the ultrafine particles most damaging to health both in terms of volume and composition is still the automobile:
Sure wood burning pollutes, but trying to claim that cars don't just because they filter the biggest particles is grossly misleading. That 750 cars comparison is petrolhead bollocks.
Go stand at a cross roads in Paris and tell me that motorcycles, modern or old, aren't the most polluting anti-social means of transport in the city.
Nothing has changed since 2006, something more recent:
Noisy and stinking.
Sure wood burning pollutes, but trying to claim that cars don’t.....
Has someone actually claimed on this thread that cars don't pollute?
You do realise that pointing out that woodburners pollute isn't the same as claiming that cars don't, don't you?
According to data from Eurostat, an institute which you no doubt trust:
"The average health costs from using a wood stove for a year are €750 per household, says Korteland, compared with €210 from driving a diesel car and €30 from a gas boiler."
read back Ernie, yes.
Yes, I said so myself
And that EU + UK health cost is pretty low when you compare with cars for just the UK:
I trust Eurostat but not consultacy firms producing misleading reports by interpreting the data to suit their agenda.
The current and past data has yet to integrate the Ultra-fine monitoring currently taking place which data we have so far show that the automobile is still the elephant in the room.
@ransos you’re just talking zealot bollocks. There is nothing objective in your argument
Does your mum know you're still up?
show that the automobile is still the elephant in the room.
"Elephant in the room"? Are you seriously suggesting vehicle pollution is being ignored?
I can't see anyone ignoring the fact that fossil fuel powered vehicles cause pollution.
On the other hand a few people appear, ironically, to want to treat wood burning stoves as the elephant in the room.
I trust Eurostat but not consultacy firms producing misleading reports by interpreting the data to suit their agenda.
The New Scientist article reports on a European Public Health Alliance commissioned study by CE Delft, which uses Eurostat data and estimates the health consequences based on a World Health Organization study.
If you want to dismiss it all as misleading and unreliable and designed to suit a narrow agenda then that's obviously up to you.
But I don't understand why anyone should consider your claims to be anymore reliable.
What makes you more believable? You don't have an agenda? You don't own a wood burner?
Ultrafine particles, Ernie, Ultrafine particles.
You're of on one of your anti-randomSTWposter rants in which you find fault wher there is none, distort, stick question marks at the end of questions that put words in peoples mouths; pesonal attacks mild enough you'll get away with them.
In short you are beyond reasoning with and frankly making negative use of the forum. The Internet at its worst.
The hugely financed auto lobby produces cars with filters that only filter out big particles and then burn those particles to produce ultrafine particles that until recently weren't even monitored. If you'd read that EU report I linked you'd have found 70% are from automobiles with aviation next.
I'm out Ernie, it's unpleasant in here, but continue arguing for the sake of arguing with anyone daft enough to engage you.