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Trail rat, the article says levels spike each time the stove is loaded/refueled. It's clearly the teenie waft coming from the stove as the door is opened.
depends on whether your fuel costs you anything
For district heating? Doesn’t seem very likely.
all you need is an estate whose previous owners ancestors planted lots of trees. Chop down the trees for subsidy whilst claiming subsidy to plant trees on farmland that the same previous owners spent centuries improving.
the harvestable trees will run out soon of course but so will the RHI.
Bit of a shit argument, should we just pull everyone out of the countryside and into towns then?
Well, it would suit certain people, because then the whole population could get rid of their cars and use bikes and/or public transport instead.
Then the countryside can be rewilded and/or used for selective agricultural use, with those areas unsuitable for both given over to winners of lotteries for playing outside the cities.
Mountain bikes would be banned, of course, due to damage to sensitive environments. Cycling on country roads would be fine, nobody would be living in the countryside, so the roads would be empty.
Zero maintenance, but that costs money anyway.
Having read the report I've been playing this evening when refueling. I stuck a stick in then pulled it out smoking and used it to show the air flow when opening and closing the stove door. The smoke made it clear that the draw is such that the smoke is drawn into the stove from every angle around the door during opening, refueling and door closing. So I don't see how all this particulate matter is supposed to get out during refueling. On the other hand the air quality outside must be pretty shit downwind of us. 🙂
Well, it would suit certain p eople, because then the whole population could get rid of their cars and use bikes and/or public transport instead.
Then the countryside can be rewilded and/or used for selective agricultural use, with those areas unsuitable for both given over to winners of lotteries for playing outside the cities.
Mountain bikes would be banned, of course, due to damage to sensitive environments. Cycling on country roads would be fine, nobody would be living in the countryside, so the roads would be empty.
Zero maintenance, but that costs money anyway.
I don't smoke crack. But if I do I hope I do it as well as you.
The smoke made it clear that the draw is such that the smoke is drawn into the stove from every angle around the door during opening, refueling and door closing.
Albe it not with a burning stick but similar observations here....unless I dive in and open the door in one swoop which is stupid on many counts.
I support mandatory training and licensing of stoves. Educate those morons insistent on overnight slumbering
Okay so here's the actual article for those that would prefer to know the methodology behind it:
https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/11/12/1326/htm
2.6. Study Limitations
The study exhibits several limitations that are associated with variability in the research setting due to its exploratory design and focus on real-world stove use. First, the study does not account for the impact of room size, seal, ventilation, and dwelling age on the duration of air pollution exposure witnessed. Nor does it relate the levels of air pollution to specific stages of the combustion cycle. Further study is needed in order to understand these aspects of indoor air pollution, requiring a sampling frame that is determined by more than the stove type and a research design that is appropriate for lab conditions.
I can't see any indication or suggestion that the way the stove is being used has been considered.
Just wanted to add, this thread is stuffed with adverts for stoves & installation places. And ironing.
This is an interesting study. Why did it affect men only?
1. Men more likely to do the refuelling?
2. Men more likely to be out and about 'in' the pollution?
3. Men just more susceptible to the pollution?
Reduction in air pollution from wood-burning stoves associated with significantly reduced risk of death
(Published 7 January 2013)
Research: Evaluation of interventions to reduce biomass smoke air pollution on mortality in Launceston, Australia: retrospective analysis of daily mortality, 1994-2007Male deaths from all-causes, but particularly cardiovascular and respiratory disease, could be significantly reduced with a decrease in biomass smoke (smoke produced by domestic cooking and heating and woodland fires), a paper published today on bmj.com suggests.
The researchers say this could have significant impact on further interventions to reduce pollution from this source.
Although a large amount of research has been carried out on the adverse health effects of air pollution, no studies have reported reductions in deaths associated with interventions to reduce biomass smoke pollution.
In 2001, Launceston (in Tasmania, Australia) was the setting for a series of interventions to reduce wood smoke pollution. The interventions dramatically accelerated a general trend towards using electric rather than wood heaters. As such, wood stove prevalence fell from 66% to 30% of all households and average particulate air pollution during winter was reduced by 40% (44 µg/m³ – 27 µg/m³).
Researchers from Australia and Canada used this data to assess whether there were any significant changes in all-cause, cardiovascular and respiratory mortality.
This is the first study to assess changes in mortality associated with a reduction in smoke from domestic wood heaters. The researchers compared the population of Launceston with the population of Hobart (also in Tasmania), which did not have any air quality interventions.
The reductions in mortality (deaths per 1000 people at risk per year, adjusted for age) between 1994-2001 and 2001-2007 were not significant for males and females combined (2.7% for all-cause mortality; 4.9% for cardiovascular mortality; 8.5% respiratory mortality). However, reductions were statistically significant for males alone: differences of 11.4% for all-cause mortality; 17.9% for cardiovascular and 22.8% for respiratory.
Open Charcoal BBQs anyone.....
What did the Tasmanians use to generate the extra electricity to heat homes no longer using wood? Coal, I suspect.
I'll stop using wood when the Germans who sell France electricity during the heating season stop burning brown coal and the fossil fuel contribution to generation is zero. Till then I'll continue to burn 2m3 of wood a year for as long as I'm fit enough to harvest it and turn it into stove sized lumps.
im impressed you stay alive with 2m3 a year.
done that at least already (2x2 cottage, only heat source)
What did the Tasmanians use to generate the extra electricity to heat homes no longer using wood? Coal, I suspect.
Very likely coal
I’ll stop using wood when the Germans who sell France electricity during the heating season stop burning brown coal and the fossil fuel contribution to generation is zero.
While they are linked, there are two separate issues. One is the overall effect on the environment of burning fuel, e.g. global warming. The second is a more immediate risk to an individual's health due to poor air quality, which is localised to a person's home, street, city etc.
Educate those morons insistent on overnight slumbering
some people have no choice, the houses around me that are still council owned don't as they're not allowed oil.
i fitted an oil boiler last winter and also a new 5kw stove in place of the 28kw multifuel stove but i know from experience how cold it gets when the stove goes out when its your only heating.
the other thing with these reports, are they based on moden defra approved stoves or older ones. mine gets upto temp very quickly and is very clean burning
Not unexpected really. When I did my degree in the mid nineties the professor who taught us interior pollution sources showed us how solid fuel burning fires were by far the most damaging to residents health and he would never have one. In recent years I’ve wanted one and almost got one fitted but backed out as I kept going through villages and getting lungfuls of wood smoke from all the private residents fires, and didn’t really want to contribute to that problem.
Weirdly it’s way worse in Calderdale IME than in the Holme/Colne valley where we live. 🤔
When I did my degree in the mid nineties the professor who taught us interior pollution sources showed us how solid fuel burning fires were by far the most damaging to residents health
What did he say about gas hobs? I've been wondering about changing ours as the layout is rubbish (big/wok burner at the back). Induction is always an option
When I did my degree in the mid nineties the professor who taught us interior pollution sources showed us how solid fuel burning fires were by far the most damaging to residents health
was that based on stoves though? based on my experience all the houses i/ or mates lived in in the late eighties to mid nineties had open coal fires before then moving to gas
these reports, are they based on moden defra approved stoves or older ones. mine gets upto temp very quickly and is very clean burning
The irony is that the specific issue being discussed here, air quality inside the home, is being made worse by the most efficient stoves.
Some of the baffling is so aggressive that they spill out the door when refueling even if the chimney has a very strong draw.
I've seen a few now which are totally unfit for purpose unless modified from new or bits left out.
There's a lot of effort being put into making *the stove* better.
Really, what's required is making *the combustion system* better. A key part of that system is of course the end user.
That's a good way to express it bed maker. It's why, although I find the guardian articles poorly written, they do have some benefit of raising awareness of the issue and making people think about how they use the stove.
A couple of good learning here for me. Minimise refuelling, and keep doors shut (we did that anyway). We struggled to get ours to draw properly for ages. Then we had the chimney swept, which dislodged the very large, and barbecued crow in the top of it. The sweep also told us to drill a few holes in the baffle to improve the draw, which it did... Following the crow incident I’ve also fitted a hat to the chimney, which again has made a decent difference to the draw. I don’t think it could be any better now, it’s almost like it has a fan in it until you close it down...
some people have no choice, the houses around me that are still council owned don’t as they’re not allowed oil.
That doesn't change physics nor the inherent risks that slumbering stoves brings. Many of them deadly.
maybe not, but if you have a choice of a freezing cold house in the morning or shutting the stove down to keep it going overnight what you going to do. i know i would/did take the chance on the small risk of it causing health issues(not that i knew about any possible issues at the time)
the other thing with these reports, are they based on moden defra approved stoves or older ones.
Well if you read the report concerned which I already linked to you would have your answer.
CO isn't a health issue it's a death issue
A couple of good learning here for me. Minimise refuelling
Hmmm, be careful with that, overloading the box leads to poor burning too.
CO isn’t a health issue it’s a death issue
which is why you should have a CO detector, anyway thats not really whats being discussed here, i think everyone knows how bad CO is
What did he say about gas hobs? I’ve been wondering about changing ours as the layout is rubbish (big/wok burner at the back). Induction is always an option
Can’t remember it being an issue but I’d rather have induction as it’s easier to clean!
was that based on stoves though? based on my experience all the houses i/ or mates lived in in the late eighties to mid nineties had open coal fires before then moving to gas
Yes it was log burning stoves.
I quite having stoves (2) in my house.
I use offcuts from a local manufacturer of wooden roof trusses to heat my house in addition to wood that I come across which is only burnt when seasoned well
My wood is always less than 20% moisture when burnt, the roof truss wood is less than 4% water
If burnt well at high temp there is very little smoke from either chimney and both chimneys are about 40 plus feet from the ground
My alternative would be to burn more gas - rather than the waste products of industry and local gardeners - surely burning local waste wood is a good idea??
This has been discussed quite a bit recently in the press and I’ve heard a lot of lobbying from one group in particular about this. With the phasing out of coal the popularity of wood burning is only going to increase. If I was an influential person with the ear of politicians it would be great if I could start a certification scheme, get it written into legislation and then have it law that my logo had to be on every bag of firewood sold in the UK. That would be I tidy little earner.
Funny enough a scheme of that nature has already been set up, you can be sure the woodsure scheme will be law before too long and the people behind it will do very well out of it.
Who is going to police what wood you're burning?
They'll be banned due to the media attention pm 2.5 is getting after the Ella Kissi-Debrah case.
I might add, what we need as well are houses with better ventilation systems. I've got a pretty nice flat in Sheffield but it's close to some busy roads, was getting quite bad rhinitis towards the end of the rush hour. My Philips HEPA filter seems to have sorted this and has massively dropped the PM 2.5 levels in the flat.
My previous flat in London had a proper HEPA ventilation system built in to it.
if you have a choice of a freezing cold house in the morning or shutting the stove down to keep it going overnight what you going to do.
Insulate to the point you don't need to light the stove again until the following evening.
A slumbering stove produces **** all heat and is very inefficient sending unburnt "fuel" up the chimney, you'd do better to just let it burn out running full chat. A 1kW electric heater will produce much more heat than a slumbering stove, program it to switch on an hour before you get up then switch it off when you get up and relight the stove.
can't insulate a house you don't own, the ones near me that do it are in houses still owened by the council. also there is no way to get that amount of insulation in a mid fifties block built house without losing a lot of space.
when i kept mine in overnight it definatly wasn't as cold in the morning and took no time at all to get roaring away again. it wasn't something i did often, if i was at work the next day it wasn't worth it, i just put up with being cold.
all you need is an estate whose previous owners ancestors planted lots of trees. Chop down the trees for subsidy whilst claiming subsidy to plant trees on farmland that the same previous owners spent centuries improving.
the harvestable trees will run out soon of course but so will the RHI.
That wouldn't meet the subsidy criteria for the sustainability of the fuel source.
which is why you should have a CO detector, anyway thats not really whats being discussed here, i think everyone knows how bad CO is
No but every year TR has to rant on every stove thread about 'other' people not using their stoves properly, it's an STW tradition - similar to the 'no one else, but me, knows how to drive in snow' type threads...
No but every year TR has to rant on every stove thread about ‘other’ people not using their stoves properly
Indeed but the opposing opinion makes it easy to see why stove pollution is a real issue.
I.mean it must be pretty close to the truth before me and edukator agree on something.
🙂
can’t insulate a house you don’t own, the ones near me that do it are in houses still owened by the council. also there is no way to get that amount of insulation in a mid fifties block built house without losing a lot of space.
That's rubbish, you can easily insulate on the outside and roof, the Germans proved this with the 3 litre house.
https://neopor.basf.us/resources/case-studies/3-liter-home
https://www.kunststoffe.de/en/_storage/asset/580745/storage/master/file/6074054/download/The%20Three-litre%20House.pdf
Councils round here have been adding external insulation to housing stock all over the place, most of it paid for by energy commitment funds. I'd suggest your council needs to up their game.
how much would all that cost though.
the council here has just spent loads of money on there houses around me, reslating and redashing them, as usual for councils they didn't touch the stacks while they had scafold up which are all cracked and in need of repair
My alternative would be to burn more gas – rather than the waste products of industry and local gardeners – surely burning local waste wood is a good idea??
Using the wood is a good idea, but individuals each burning it in their homes isn't. A Biomass plant that produces electricity from it is a better idea. There's only one place where the pollution needs to be controlled (the Biomass plant) and it doesn't depend on the competency of individuals (with their stoves) to control it instead.
Electric heating is the future. I think wood burning will go soon, unless you have a very good reason to burn wood for your main heating source. Gas will follow soon enough though. However UK governments and administrations are very bad at enabling changes like this, in this case electricity prices will need to drop, or be subsidised for heating purposes, grants will need to be given for new heating etc.
Here's an interesting example. The houses on our street were built in 2015 and are on mains gas and are cheap to heat as they are well insulated.
Four doors down our neighbour built a single story extension onto the rear of their house and into this extension they put a wood burner. The burner is therefore completely cosmetic. It won't heat any of the rest of the house, only the small extension. This morning I noticed smoke coming from the chimney for the first time. I guess the stove isn't used that often. The owner would have been able to install it under permitted development. I think that they should have had to apply for planning permission for it, given the age of the house, them being on mains gas and them being in a supposed smoke-free* zone.
*Which literally means just that, no smoke. Fine particulates are ok.
in this case electricity prices will need to drop
While I wholeheartedly agree with this. Where's the mechanism or indeed the incentive for this.
Uk is not backfilling aging infrastructure fast enough as it is.
I agree with your statement so much I've put my money where my mouth is an having solar installed and have my name down for a battery install to allow this to be allowable in the future to ditch both oil and wood in a manageable fashion in my life time. .....at current rates and % increases you'd be 3/4 mental to go fully electric in all but a passive haus
Uk is not backfilling aging infrastructure fast enough as it is.
Inter-country electricity is going to be one answer. I briefly worked doing environmental impact assessments (noise being my speciality). One project I was involved in was an undersea electricity connector from Scotland to Norway. Power would go both ways. Wind power from Scotland and Hydro from Norway. Such connectors exist elsewhere, e.g. with France.
However this ran into issues as it was a private venture and Norway didn't like vital infrastructure being in the hands of a private company.... which makes sense and highlights how the UK operates. The state never gets its hands dirty, it's all done by incentivising and outsourcing. This will never get things right, is slow and cannot deal with any nuances. E.g.
We owned a flat. It was in a horrible concrete building that had cavity walls, but lots and lots of cold bridges. It was assessed for an insulation grant and external cladding was recommended..... then along comes the appointed installer and they put in cavity wall insulation.. completely the wrong thing. We were moving anyway so let it be, as it was an extra tick on the home report (another example!)
how much would all that cost though.
It's in the report but it's not an insurmountable sum. In fact the payback time was pretty quick IIRC.
So to sum up best practice (for those who simply have to do it)..
1.Only burn well seasoned dry wood
2.Make sure your house is well insulated so you don’t have to leave it on overnight
3.Minimise reloading so as to keep the doors shut, but be careful of overloading
4.Do not use wood burners in urban areas
Couple more:
5.build your fire with big logs at the bottom (going to try this)
6.warm the flue by sticking a page of burning paper up it pre lighting (works well for me)