[Closed] Average speed cameras work. Are they even on ?

dazh - Member

rebel12, you're still completely missing the point. The fact that you can drive more safely at speed than the next person is completely irrelevant. You simply can't have one set of drivers driving to completely different rules than others. The speed limits are there not just to improve safety through limiting the severity of crashes, but also to provide a standard environment where all road users know what to expect.

I have an idea though. What about allowing people like yourself to opt out of speeding laws in exchange for an automatic 10 year prison sentence if you're involved in a crash? Somehow I don't think you'd go for that though.

But people do already drive to a different set of rules. Some drive far too slow to be safe, others too fast for the conditions? Not sure what you're trying to get at here? All I'm saying is that if you're going to drive faster than the posted limit then extra training will make you a far safer driver. Any many limits are already artificially low - e.g. the 70mph limit of a motorway when traffic is light. That was set in the mid 60's when cars were positively death traps compared to today's vehicles.

They are thinking of upping the limit to 80mph on motorways soon. Will that then make it suddenly safe in your eyes just because it's now legal?

Oh and why not have different rules whilst we're at it. Perhaps for example if you'd completed an Advanced Driving course and retests every 5 years then you might get a special [b]'Red Numberplate'[/b] which means that you can drive at a faster limit than people who haven't passed the course. Could make sense and it might improve the uptake of further driver training making the roads safer for all.

Driver training makes better drivers - simple. I can't see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you're not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

Yeah but usually when there's accidents, TWO cars are involved. Not speeding is defensive driving.

The speed limits are there not just to improve safety through limiting the severity of crashes, but also to provide a standard environment where all road users know what to expect.

Absolutely bang on.

Nipping out for a bit, so take your time Daz. 😉

Come on then, what is your alternative? Spit it out boy.

Err, just relax and drive a bit slower? If you have to be somewhere at a certain time, leave a bit earlier (only a bit, cos we all know driving fast doesn't save you much time anyway)?

dazh - Member

Come on then, what is your alternative? Spit it out boy.

Err, just relax and drive a bit slower? If you have to be somewhere at a certain time, leave a bit earlier (only a bit, cos we all know driving fast doesn't save you much time anyway)?

Long distance it can save quite a bit of time and it can also be good fun and safe on the right road, helping keep concentration levels high and avoiding daydreaming.

Don't understand some of the posts on here - if you want to dawdle please go ahead, but don't then whinge when people who can happily go faster overtake you in a safe and considerate manor.

Oh and why not have different rules whilst we're at it. Perhaps for example if you'd completed an Advanced Driving course and retests every 5 years then you might get a special 'Red Numberplate' which means that you can drive at a faster limit than people who haven't passed the course. Could make sense and it might improve the uptake of further driver training making the roads safer for all.

Some problems I foresee with this:

1. See above, limits and other road laws enforce a standard, predictable environment which prevents accidents, as well as mitigating their severity. Take away the predictability, and you have more accidents, probably at higher speeds, which means many more deaths and ruined lives.
2. How much faster? Upping the limits to 80 or 90 make almost no discernible difference to journey times for an average journey, so why bother?
3. Giving a red number plate to 'advanced drivers' would be like waving a start flag to your average petrolhead and boy racer, actively encouraging them to drive faster, because they have a bit of paper to prove they're better.

Also I haven't even bothered mentioning a lot of the other reasons against driving faster which haven't been mentioned such as increased carbon emissions, fuel prices, noise, particulate pollution etc

Right, off home now. On the train, which is much faster than driving. Normally I'd be on my bike, which unsurprisingly is also much faster to get to work and back.

That's the thing, isn't it. There's "overtaking in a safe manner" and there's "driving like an aggressive tool."

Giving a red number plate to 'advanced drivers' would be like waving a start flag to your average petrolhead and boy racer, actively encouraging them to drive faster, because they have a bit of paper to prove they're better.

But they'll [i]be[/i] better. If a boy racer is going to, uh, boy race, I'd rather they had a bit of training under their belt.

Long distance it can save quite a bit of time

Not that much time. The UK is quite small.

and it can also be good fun and safe on the right road

Ah! At last you mentioned the 'fun' part. So how would you separate the 'safe' people having fun from the idiot boy racers? And do you really think the public roads are the correct place for this type of fun?

dazh - Member
Ah! At last you mentioned the 'fun' part. So how would you separate the 'safe' people having fun from the idiot boy racers? And do you really think the public roads are the correct place for this type of fun?

God you're a killjoy - Yes [b]FUN[/b], what's wrong with that? Having fun driving means that I enjoy learning more about it, learning more about car control, general driving awareness, what's safe and what's not etc.

Idiots are easy to spot - but unfortunately we need more actual traffic police on the road to do that, not yellow speed camera boxes that can't tell a good driver from a bad driver.

There's plenty of people on the who don't ever learn anything after passing their test. The have never explored the limits of a car etc. Unfortunately although they may never exceed the speed limit these people tend to come unstuck in a tricky situation (when driving in snow for example). They lack the skills and tend to panic when something unexpected happens.

It can save time.... as by it's very definition, you're travelling at a faster rate (miles PER hour).

Popping to the shops might save you 1 minute. Driving 300 miles might save you an hour or more.

Obviously depending on the road conditions, traffic, weather, roadworks, etc.

[quote=rebel12]Idiots are easy to spot

Yup, usually doing 150mph on their sport bikes, under the illusion they are Gods.... 😉

rebel12 » Idiots are easy to spot

Yup, usually doing 150mph on their sport bikes, under the illusion they are Gods....

Inclined to generally agree with that - then again on an empty motorway with good visibility, the right training and a bike/car that's more than capable then the risk could be a lot less than you think. Illegal - certainly, Dangerous - not necessarily.

Oh and why not have different rules whilst we're at it. Perhaps for example if you'd completed an Advanced Driving course and retests every 5 years then you might get a special 'Red Numberplate' which means that you can drive at a faster limit than people who haven't passed the course. Could make sense and it might improve the uptake of further driver training making the roads safer for all.

possibly, the worst idea i've ever heard.

rebel12 - Member
Some drive far too slow to be safe,

Ah all those famous fatal slow speed head on collisions we're always hearing about.

rebel12 - Member
God you're a killjoy - Yes FUN, what's wrong with that? Having fun driving means that I enjoy learning more about it, learning more about car control, general driving awareness, what's safe and what's not etc.

Keep it on the track. What's wrong with it is other people are using the roads and no matter how great you think you are it only takes one mistake. Which if you're having fun aka driving like a selfish dick is going to be worse than if you were driving the speed limit.

Man-child racers are just as bad as boy-racers.

The one thing that I will leave you with. Never ever panic. I always stay calm. **** courses. There are people out there with Phd's who arent working. Relax, lose arms, smooth throttle always.

dazh - Member

Err, just relax and drive a bit slower? If you have to be somewhere at a certain time, leave a bit earlier (only a bit, cos we all know driving fast doesn't save you much time anyway)?

I said that "The whole point of driving is to get from A to B quickly".
You disagreed.
Going to offer up an alternative view?
You've had plenty of time.

hora - Member

lose arms

Steer with your knees?
🙂

ahwiles - Member

possibly, the worst idea i've ever heard.

Would you care to expand on that?
I'm not saying it's a good idea but I think you have probably misunderstood what advanced driving is about.

hora - Member

The one thing that I will leave you with. Never ever panic.

The one instruction my friend got (possibly learning to drive in the army) was "If you're going to crash, do it as slowly as possible".
😆

sbob - Member

And it's cheap too.
Institite of Advanced Motorists

Go on, give it a click. Chances are you'll be able to find a group close to you and more often than not you'll be able to go out with an observer for no greater cost than your petrol for an initial assessment of your driving.

With so many lambasting the driving of others, it's great to see the number of comments and questions from those posters regarding the above. 🙂

Oh.
🙁

speeds will come down to legal levels, for more drivers for a couple of reasons

more and more company vehicles are being fitted with trackers which flag up speeding,agressive cornering and braking

younger drivers have the choice of forking out several grand to be insured or have a black box fitted and instead parting with several hundred instead

As for the average cameras a friends colleague got banned after driving through the M5/M4 interchange

sbob - Member

sbob - Member

And it's cheap too.
Institite of Advanced Motorists

Go on, give it a click. Chances are you'll be able to find a group close to you and more often than not you'll be able to go out with an observer for no greater cost than your petrol for an initial assessment of your driving.

With so many lambasting the driving of others, it's great to see the number of comments and questions from those posters regarding the above.

Oh.

Agree, I've done the full course and the first assessment was free. Seems too many people on here who want to tell everyone else what they can and can't do on the road yet turn their noses up at doing some further training to actually improve their own driving. Crazy!

Watch it with that brush, you're getting tar on me.

I've considered IAM or a.n.other course for years, but never really got around to it. I checked out sbob's links, and it seems there's a course starting near me next month. Funds permitting I might give it a go.

(Does the 's' stand for 'silent'?)

Idiots are easy to spot

No they're not. Not until their phone rings, or they need to change album on their iPod or something.

All this guff about driver training and car handling is total bollocks. Testosterone fulled alpha male bollocks.

I'm willing to bet most accidents are not caused by lack of car handling skills. Taking stupid gambles, reckless overtaking, not concentrating I think would rank much more highly.

I'm willing to bet most accidents are not caused by lack of car handling skills. Taking stupid gambles, reckless overtaking, not concentrating I think would rank much more highly.

molgrips - Member

All this guff about driver training and car handling is total bollocks. Testosterone fulled alpha male bollocks.

Firstly, I haven't mentioned car handling when talking about driver training.
Secondly, your mention of testosterone and the fact that you think it is "total bollocks" shows that you know nothing about the subject, and the [b]fact[/b] that insurers will often offer discounts to IAM members proves that you are wrong.

Do yourself (and everyone else) a favour; get some training.

All this guff about driver training and car handling is total bollocks. Testosterone fulled alpha male bollocks.

Clearly spoken by someone who actually knows very little about driving. Empty vessels make the most noise and all that . . . .

How ironical.

I'd be willing to wager a few bob that the 'not concentrating' contributes far more

+1, you beat me to it.

All this guff about driver training and car handling is total bollocks.

Molly, I like you, and you usually talk a lot of sense (often in the face of strong opposition). And I applaud you for that. But you're wrong on this one.

Driver training - any training - doesn't give you the right to then go acting like a tool because you're "better" than everyone else. And good training will teach you this.

It's the same argument with self defence classes. Do people go and sign up to kung fu classes and then go around battering everyone? Of course not; they get taught first and foremost how to avoid confrontation in the first place. Sure, there will be exceptions, every demographic has its asshats, but they will be a minority.

I don't really understand how you think that learning to be better at something will make you worse at it.

Clearly spoken by someone who actually knows very little about driving. Empty vessels make the most noise and all that

Lolz.

But this time, you're simply wrong I'm afraid.

Driver training - any training - doesn't give you the right to then go acting like a tool because you're "better" than everyone else. And good training will teach you this.

Ok I should clarify. I meant the surf-mat school of driver training ie 'I've done the police course now I can go as fast as I like'. Training drivers to be safe, aware and responsible is indeed extremely valuable as you say.

It's a shame hardly anyone does it 🙁

Thing is, and I'm just guessing, anyone who goes and gets advanced training was probably at the less likely end of causing an accident in the first place.

Ok I should clarify. I meant the surf-mat school of driver training ie 'I've done the police course now I can go as fast as I like'. Training drivers to be safe, aware and responsible is indeed extremely valuable as you say.

It's a shame hardly anyone does it

Right with you up until that last sentence.

DD > you're probably right. The ones who are already AWSUM! won't believe they need any training. I've posted pictures before now of what happened to the last one of those I encountered.

Ok I should clarify. I meant the surf-mat school of driver training ie 'I've done the police course now I can go as fast as I like'. Training drivers to be safe, aware and responsible is indeed extremely valuable as you say.

It's a shame hardly anyone does it

Mol, sorry for being quick to have a go but I thought you were just being dismissive of all driver training.

There's quite a few people who do it - the IAM for starters. I also did a course with [url= http://www.hpc.org.uk/ ]High Performance Club[/url] which was very insightful and a bit more focused for those that want to drive fast but safely than the AIM course. These are geared toward road rather than track driving.

I'm never going to say I don't break the speed limit - I do, often and intensionaly when the roads are quiet. It's just that if I'm going to be doing it then I wanted to do it with as much training and knowledge as I could get to make things far safer for all concerned.

Completely different attitude I think to a boy racer (and I used to be one) who just drives everywhere at max speed, but with very little talent or margin for error, pi**ing everyone else off in the progress.

The courses have taught me a lot but most of all that despite doing the courses, I still have so much more to learn.

Right with you up until that last sentence.

?

How many people do that kind of training?

molgrips - do you reckon my NIP for 57 in a 50 on a road safe at 70 makes me a boy racer? Was I going that fast because I'm a testosterone fuelled alpha male reckoning I can drive fast because I'm awsum?

I agree with most of your post rebel12 but I question the emphasis on talent. Surely the trick is to not put yourself in a situation where you need 'talent'?

I have no idea how hard I can corner in either of my cars - I can't see how I need to know?

molgrips - do you reckon my NIP for 57 in a 50 on a road safe at 70 makes me a boy racer? Was I going that fast because I'm a testosterone fuelled alpha male reckoning I can drive fast because I'm awsum?

I have no idea.

molgrips - Member

I have no idea how hard I can corner in either of my cars - I can't see how I need to know?

When you have done all you can to avoid evasive maneuvers but some unforeseeable turn of events means you might have to resort to them, it is very useful to already know how the car will behave at or beyond the limit.

I know how it performs under hard braking and swerving. Just not cornering. I also know how it corners and stops on snow, cos I've tried all those things so that I do know the limits.

However I can't imagine a scenario where knowing the cornering limits would be advantageous.

molgrips - Member

I know how it performs under hard braking and swerving. Just not cornering.

Swerving is cornering. 🙂

I have no idea.

But I thought all speeding was dangerous?

I agree with most of your post rebel12 but I question the emphasis on talent. Surely the trick is to not put yourself in a situation where you need 'talent'?

I have no idea how hard I can corner in either of my cars - I can't see how I need to know?

No you're right, most people will never get near the limits of their cars (and it's probably not a good idea to go too close to them) on a public road. But if you're going to be driving fast, in bad weather conditions, or driving a twitchy RWD car then it helps to know how your car handles on the limit - to recognise when you're close to it so you can slow down before it's too late. I didn't realise this as a teenager and lost the back end of my car several times on wet roundabouts, spinning full 360's, luckily with no damage to anything. If I'd have had more talent at the time (rather than blind bravery/stupidity) then I'd probably have been able to recognise that I was driving way too fast for the conditions or done something to correct the slide before it became a problem. Maybe talent was the wrong choice of word - knowledge and experience might be more appropriate.

But if you're going to be driving fast

Er yeah the whole point of this discussion is that you really ought not to be.

Maybe talent was the wrong choice of word - knowledge and experience might be more appropriate.

Spot on.

How many people do that kind of training?

Ah right - I misunderstood what you meant, apologies. Ignore that.

molgrips - Member

But if you're going to be driving fast

Er yeah the whole point of this discussion is that you really ought not to be.

Err, I know but like I've said I do often exceed the speed limit. I enjoy driving and enjoy driving quickly. I'm not talking about racing or acting like a dick, but making smooth and fast progress in a car I enjoy driving and when conditions allow with good observation plus consideration and respect for other road users.

Generally I'll drive to whatever is appropriate for the conditions rather that what the posted speed limit is. Sometimes that's way under the speed limit, sometimes quite a bit over.

I've tried driving more slowly but I'm afraid to be honest I really struggle not to drive quickly sometimes. So I though I may as well increase my skill base to make the margin of safety that bit better.

Good observation and applying some common sense to where I drive quickly is probably why I've still got a clean license (touch wood).