[Closed] Average speed cameras work. Are they even on ?

If you are getting frustrated driving at the speed limit, that is entirely your problem, and something YOU need to work at. If you're taking a while to get served at the bar, do you start shouting and barging people out of the way? If your train is not as fast as you'd like, are you going to charge into the cab and hit the accelerator?

If you feel frustration, then you need to grow up and learn some patience.

As for your own amazing skills - there are other people on the road too. Many of whom are not good drivers. You need to drive defensively, as I'm sure you ride when on your pushbike.

If he'd been driving waaaaayyyyy too fast, it may well have been a very big factor for you.

Sure. But that wasn't the question I was answering. That's what we in these discussions like to refer to as "something else."

I used to drive everywhere like my head was on fire when I was younger, with a string of SP30s to show for it.

I used to do this and I used to do it sideways. A few STW'ers swore never to get in a car with me again. I've calmed down now though. The thing is I NEVER got a speeding ticket.

I might have driven swiftly etc but I never lost my power of visual awareness.

Sure. But that wasn't the question I was answering. That's what we in these discussions like to refer to as "something else."

Until we have your Utopian world of negligible accident figures because of the awesome level of skills of drivers, folk have to be limited so that when they take you roughly from behind, you risk a slightly scratched rear end rather than one that needs mechanical repair.

Rebel12 » So I think my standard of driving is way above average

And here lies the problem - everyone thinks they have 1337 skillz behind the wheel.

Yes but the courses I've done have me a better driver, in much the same way as taking piano lessons will make you a better player of the piano. It's not rocket science you know. The courses have also made me a more considerate and observant driver - therefore safer whether traveling above or below the limit. I suggest you try some additional training yourself before tarring everyone who drives fast with the same brush.

It may *look* like safe overtaking opportunity for you in a 40mph limit, but what about the 'speeder' who's doing 60mph+ in the other direction (towards you) ?

Yes but I'd never get into that situation because I would have already made allowances for someone (currently unseen) coming towards me over the limit in the opposite direction before starting any overtake manouvere. Similarly if I'd never go round a blind bend fast enough not to be able to stop in half of the distance visible because there might be a late overtaker still on the wrong side of the road just around the corner.

This is where driving a performance car helps - It gives you just that extra margin for error or safety factor to stop/react should you need it.

I might have driven swiftly etc but I never lost my power of visual awareness.

I take your point, and (kill me now) I agree with it. I'd argue these days that if you get caught speeding, your crime isn't speeding, it's speeding whilst not paying sufficient attention. The mobile units aren't generally hard to see and, to my chagrin, I have no idea where the [s]speed trap[/s] safety camera was that caught me that day.

However, back in The Day, a) I was a lot younger and less experienced so less likely to spot a camera, and b) speed cameras weren't the high visibility things they are now. Police used to do their damndest to hide out of sight so they could catch you. It was a lot easier to get caught out.

deadlydarcy - Member

Until we have your Utopian world of negligible accident figures because of the awesome level of skills of drivers, folk have to be limited so that when they take you roughly from behind, you risk a slightly scratched rear end rather than one that needs mechanical repair.

I've got a mate who works for the HSE.
I was having an interesting chat with him about the effect of replacing old hard surfaces in playgrounds with that soft rubber stuff you now get.
Care to guess what the outcome is?

Mr rebel12, I salute your intransigence (and your superior driving skills) in the face of logic and common sense. You are the very epitomy of someone who has constructed an entirely new form of thinking to justify their own unjustifiable actions. One day hopefully you'll look back on this discussion and cringe with embarrassment at the arrogance of it all.

Care to guess what the outcome is?

Is it a "risk compensation" thing, i.e. no difference? A bit like using antiskid surfaces so people can drive/ride around corners faster?

I was having an interesting chat with him about the effect of replacing old hard surfaces in playgrounds with that soft rubber stuff you now get.

Although this bit could suggest that there has been a significant reduction in the number of tyres going to land fill and being flytipped? Not sure the HSE look into that side of things though...

So you're saying my three year-old pays attention to the floor surface before attempting some climbing?

Who me? Nope, I was just asking a question. I didn't speak to a friend at the HSE, I don't have any friends at the HSE.

Anyway, you're in a better position to answer that than me. Does he/she? Do you by proxy allow her/him to do more "dangerous" stuff than otherwise? Would your sample of one, represent the entire population? Lots of questions... 🙂

molgrips - Member

So you're saying my three year-old pays attention to the floor surface before attempting some climbing?

Why would I be commenting on a child I didn't know existed? 😕

Let me rephrase the question.

Do you think all kids take greater risks just because the floor is now soft? Bearing in mind little kids use the playgrounds, this seems very unlikely indeed.

Care to guess what the outcome is?

Care to just tell us? Some supporting links would be useful too.

Mr rebel12, I salute your intransigence (and your superior driving skills) in the face of logic and common sense. You are the very epitomy of someone who has constructed an entirely new form of thinking to justify their own unjustifiable actions. One day hopefully you'll look back on this discussion and cringe with embarrassment at the arrogance of it all.

Almost can't be bothered to respond to this but against my better judgement I'm going to. It's ironic that you yourself can't see someone elses point of view.

Driver training makes better drivers - simple. I can't see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you're not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

Additional driver training is available to everyone. Maybe if you took some then you might unlock a world of possibility and perhaps also unlock that closed mind of yours?

Driver training may make better drivers, but the unintended consequence also kicks in when driver training makes people think that they are driving gods and needn't bother about speed limits since they are now so well trained.

Do you drive a 335d rebel12?

HoratioHufnagel - Member

Do you drive a 335d rebel12?

No - why?

edlong - Member

Driver training may make better drivers, but the unintended consequence also kicks in when driver training makes people think that they are driving gods and needn't bother about speed limits since they are now so well trained.

Have you done any extra driver training Edlong?

Many many hours of riding motorbikes on racetracks mean that IMO my 'limits' are different to a bloke who drives to the shops on a wet Wednesday afternoon once a week.

I expect you don't realise it, but none of it is about you. It is about other road users. Other road users don't calculate for a biker doing a ton-up in their driving. Your actions screw with them, not with you.

The first time I met someone facing an amputation through their own actions was a lad who worked for me and raced bikes. Big track spill through overestimating his own ability and paralysed an arm. He thought he was pretty handy on his bike too.

The outcome is an increase in more serious injuries.
I don't have any links to his data, in fact I haven't seen the figures myself, but I have no reason to question him.
It was of interest to us both as we work (in my case worked) with explosives so have a fair amount of experience in dealing with potentially dangerous circumstances and dealing with the risks involved.

This post is going to be long enough as it is so I will however cut to the chase.
Prevention is better than cure.
By concentrating on mitigating the effects of an outcome, we fail to address and eliminate the root cause of that outcome.
An accident at 40mph is always going to be more favourable than the same accident at 60mph, I'm sure we're all agreed, but we should be aiming for eliminating the accident entirely, not just mitigating the outcome.
My greatest fear is that we have already gone too far down the road of mitigation (pardon the pun) to be able to address elimination.
The "speed kills" mantra has been so successful in warning people of the dangers of speed that those people now equate driving within the speed limit with safe driving.
I've overheard conversations in the pub where someone has been involved in an accident (which was their fault) but they have justified their position by exclaiming that they weren't speeding, and then gone on to accuse the other party of speeding (well, they must have been to "cause" the accident).
Prevention is always better than cure, and education is the key to prevention.
If someone asks what's the best way to spend their money to improve their cycling on this forum, the answer won't be "buy a dropper post" it will be "go and see Jedi".
There seem to be a lot of people here who are quite vehement about their desire for others to drive more safely, but how many of those have sought additional training once they've swapped their pink licence for a green one?

And the floor is yours... 🙂

Driver training may make better drivers, but the unintended consequence also kicks in when driver training makes people think that they are driving gods and needn't bother about speed limits since they are now so well trained.

After your first advanced ride/drive, which is done without advice or input, you get a list of the things you must do better (or at all!).

If you're inclined to delusions of driving godhood, it will be a long list.

If your delusion is very strong, you'll walk away and say they can't handle your talent - no harm or good is done. Otherwise, you will have just had a very humbling experience.

rebel12 - Member

Additional driver training is available to everyone.

And it's cheap too.
[url= http://www.iam.org.uk/iam-groups/iam-groups-directory/search ]Institite of Advanced Motorists[/url]

Go on, give it a click. Chances are you'll be able to find a group close to you and more often than not you'll be able to go out with an observer for no greater cost than your petrol for an initial assessment of your driving.

Driver training makes better drivers - simple. I can't see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you're not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

I completely agree. But you're making a lot of assumptions about my driving. You see, like you, I am also a driving god (aren't we all?). In fact I'm pretty sure I could get round a track faster than you. In fact I'm certain of it. However this willy waving is completely besides the point.

If you had asked the instructor on your advanced driving course if your new skills now allow you to drive faster than everyone else on public roads, what would have been his answer? I'm pretty sure I know what he/she would have replied.

The "speed kills" mantra has been so successful in warning people of the dangers of speed that those people now equate driving within the speed limit with safe driving.

Couldn't agree more. Read a statistic somewhere that excess speed was only a factor in around 7% of all accidents. Yet there seems many on here who treat speed as the holy grail when it comes to road safety. No wonder when the media, reliance on speed cameras to police the roads and 'Speed Kills' campaign seems to have brainwashed those who have little interest in driving besides getting from A to B.

In reality though I'm pretty sure it's in-attention and poor driver skill/judgement that causes the vast majority of all accidents. Of course that's a very difficult thing to measure so it's far easier to demonize something that can be defined and then conveniently forget about the rest.

People have a lot to learn.

I still think if you go into a garage to buy certain cars it should result in the instantaneous revocation of your license on the grounds that you must actually not like driving.

You probably think a Mondeo is boring. To me a car is mostly a method of transport (to go and do fun things) rather than something fun. Not that I don't enjoy driving, but it's not sufficiently important to me to have fun on the public roads to want to buy a car you'd approve of. Of course you do get a lot of poor drivers driving certain types of car (though I think you've missed your chance trying to ban them when they buy their car - you can't even buy a Rover any more), however you'll also find that they're not the people for whom speed limits on open roads are at all relevant. What's more, despite your perceptions, such people are not only involved in less accidents than those driving cars they've bought because they "like driving", they even cause less of them.

edlong - Member

Driver training may make better drivers, but the unintended consequence also kicks in when driver training makes people think that they are driving gods and needn't bother about speed limits since they are now so well trained.

As rebel12 is probably alluding to with his question, you've almost certainly got the wrong end of the stick with regards to driver training.
The vast majority of advanced driving is all about attitude and mentality, not how you can make your car go faster round a particular corner.
I seriously recommend you look into it. 🙂

So the roads would be safer without lessons or a test at all?

A better analogy might be, the roads may be safer if we replaced the driver's airbag with a large steel spike in the middle of the wheel.

dazh - Member

If you had asked the instructor on your advanced driving course if your new skills now allow you to drive faster than everyone else on public roads, what would have been his answer? I'm pretty sure I know what he/she would have replied.

I'm sure the instructor would have replied that his new skills should enable him to choose an appropriate speed for the road he's driving on.
😉

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The vast majority of advanced driving is all about attitude and mentality, not how you can make your car go faster round a particular corner.

That's round in circles at least once, so FTFAGOS-ICBA.

dazh - Member

Driver training makes better drivers - simple. I can't see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you're not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

I completely agree. But you're making a lot of assumptions about my driving. You see, like you, I am also a driving god (aren't we all?). In fact I'm pretty sure I could get round a track faster than you. In fact I'm certain of it. However this willy waving is completely besides the point.

If you had asked the instructor on your advanced driving course if your new skills now allow you to drive faster than everyone else on public roads, what would have been his answer? I'm pretty sure I know what he/she would have replied.

Are you Jenson Button by any chance?

Where did I claim to be a 'driving god'? If anything the AIM course highlighted areas where I needed to up my game - in particular observation and reading the road ahead.

AIM don't condone or promote driving above the speed limit.

I'd argue these days that if you get caught speeding, your crime isn't speeding, it's speeding whilst not paying sufficient attention. The mobile units aren't generally hard to see and, to my chagrin, I have no idea where the speed trap safety camera was that caught me that day.

On that point we disagree. I know where the safety (sic) camera was on both occasions I've been caught. Not only that I also know exactly where I was when they nabbed me. On the first occasion they were in a layby just over the brow of the hill and nabbed me as I came into sight (and hence as they came into sight for me) - I know this as I braked the instant the van came into view and the speed they gave was what I was doing before braking. On the second, a similar situation but they were round a bend - though in a way that was even more irritating as I got nabbed for 57 in a 50 on a DC which is perfectly safe at 70 at that location. I'd love for one of the "always obey the speed limit" advocates to explain to me why my driving there was more dangerous than doing 70 on the same road a few miles away at a point where that is perfectly legal.

I still wonder what it would have been like if I'd chosen to go on a "speed awareness" course after the latter - I suspect I'd have had to force myself to keep quiet, and might have struggled if asked to admit that my driving was dangerous.

Sorry meant IAM, not AIM. Sodding auto-correct.

I still wonder what it would have been like if I'd chosen to go on a "speed awareness" course after the latter - I suspect I'd have had to force myself to keep quiet, and might have struggled if asked to admit that my driving was dangerous.

Don't know the location but in all likleyhood not dangerous - just not legal. Some speed limits I would argue are innapropriately low. Often they are lowered by the local Council due to a serious accident at that location, whether that accident was caused be excess speed or not.

Similarly some speed limits are too high (e.g. NSL on a narrow, twisting country lane) or 30 past a school entrance.

Similarly some speed limits are too high

It's a limit, not a target. I've not yet got nabbed for driving below the speed limit where I feel it is appropriate.

It's a limit, not a target.

This may be true, but we've already established that we can't trust some people to make sensible decisions.

blimey, it's come over all "=AWESOME!!" hasn't it ?

aracer - Member

It's a limit, not a target.

It is a target, to achieve if safe to do so.
You would fail your driving test if you chose to drive under the speed limit when it was safe to do the limit.

The whole point of driving is to get from A to B quickly. If it wasn't then we would all still be walking everywhere.
Of course, the aim is to not only get there quickly, but safely.

rebel12, you're still completely missing the point. The fact that you can drive more safely at speed than the next person is completely irrelevant. You simply can't have one set of drivers driving to completely different rules than others. The speed limits are there not just to improve safety through limiting the severity of crashes, but also to provide a standard environment where all road users know what to expect.

I have an idea though. What about allowing people like yourself to opt out of speeding laws in exchange for an automatic 10 year prison sentence if you're involved in a crash? Somehow I don't think you'd go for that though.

The whole point of driving is to get from A to B quickly. If it wasn't then we would all still be walking everywhere.

Another superb example of warped logic to justify driving fast. Keep 'em coming!

(...waiting for the 'if we spend all our time looking at the speedometer it's more dangerous' excuse)

dazh - Member

Another superb example of warped logic to justify driving fast. Keep 'em coming!

Yet you fail to offer an alternative.
Come on then, what is your alternative? Spit it out boy.

dazh - Member
waiting for the 'if we spend all our time looking at the speedometer it's more dangerous' excuse

It only takes a fraction of a second to glance at the speedometer, and doing so should not make driving dangerous.
Does taking your eyes off the road make driving more or less safe though?
Let's have an actual answer.

dazh - Member
You simply can't have one set of drivers driving to completely different rules than others.

It may have escaped you but we already have that situation (using your definition of completely different rules meaning different allowed speeds). 💡