MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
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Do you think this will make the A9 any safer?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-23462860
Yes, and its probably the obvious solution. However it'll be a right PITA when there' s no traffic about.
possibly!
Speed itself is not the fundamental issue on the A9 (in my experience). It is speed differentials between different vehicles which seems to trigger dodgy overtaking. From what I have seen elsewhere Average Speed Cameras reduce the tendency for vehicles to overtake each other as there is no point when everyone is constrained.
If it means fewer traffic patrols to identify poor driving then it would be a bad thing.
I can't see why it would be a bad thing to be honest. For me, the A9 is quite nice to tick along at 50-60 when there are other cars on the road, I've never understood the kamikaze driving on the A9 (compared to the A82 for example, where overtaking is generally needed to make decent progress), there are plenty of reasonably safe places to overtake yet people can't wait an extra 2 minutes to reach them.
Generally a good thing but it depends on how many segments they implement.
They should also be able to identify HGVs and so control their speed better. I'd rather overtake a truck travelling at 40mph than one doing 55-60mph.
[quote=poly ] It is speed differentials between different vehicles which seems to trigger dodgy overtaking.
+1
If they do decide to raise the HGV speed limit to 50 then they should reduce the car speed limit to 50 too.
I have been up and down the A9 countless times and have never got anywhere near a 60mph average speed.
It's folk feeling that they're forced into dodgy overtaking manoeuvres that causes the issues.
However it'll be a right PITA when there' s no traffic about.
A PITA because you'll actually have to obey the law???
Majority of accidents are the poorly designed junctions, and nutters trying to get past one more truck before the dual carriageway ends.
These cameras are going to be from Dunblane to Inverness not just from Perth.
Will be a total PITA as no one will overtake anything, and when they get to the Dually bits it will be one loooong line of cars in the outer lane passing a truck five miles ahead.
Just having this debate in work as we're up and down there quite regularly. I think until the A9 has been fully dualled (Perth to Inverness), it's a bloody great idea.
When they installed the system several years back on the A77, it helped reduce accidents/deaths. See here for the case study
I also think it was the first zone in Scotland to have these cameras too.
I can't see why it would be a bad thing to be honest. For me, the A9 is quite nice to tick along at 50-60 when there are other cars on the roadAgreed. It is the 10, 15, or 20 miles in a long queue at 38mph behind a an HGV that pisses me off. The 40mph HGV limit is not appropriate on a road like the A9 with very gentle curves and gradients and long sight lines.
AS for average speed cameras - a good thing. THey turned the A77/M77 from a racetrack into a pleasant drive. And saved lives.
THE number of deaths on the A77 in Ayrshire has fallen by a massive 46 per cent in just three years.And the introduction of the controversial SPECS cameras is responsible say campaigners.
Serious accidents have also significantly reduced since the average speed cameras went live in 2005.
They fell from 52 to 34 this year, a 35 per cent reduction.
BoardinBob
A PITA because you'll actually have to obey the law???
Well yes, especially on a powder day 8)
[quote=irc ]The 40mph HGV limit is not appropriate on a road like the A9 with very gentle curves and gradients and long sight lines.
As above. If there are long sight lines and gentle gradients then I'd rather a truck be doing 40 than 50 (and the rest) as it is easier to overtake. I drive along at a steady 50 in my van and I'm constantly getting flashed by HGVs that somehow manage to catch up with me 🙄
I think its good in terms of stopping the idiots that use the dual sections as speed limit-less autobahns, but the problem with bad overtaking on single carriageway sections will still exist as the lorries are limited to such a low speed.
Dual all the way plus average speed cameras is the only really safe option.
I drove up to snecky on Friday and back on Sunday and the A9 was fine in terms of speed though. I still had one near head-on due to some idiot diving out to overtake on a corner, saw a lorry overshoot a layby and plough away into the verge at the end of the layby, and saw a Range rover sport doing over a ton desperately try to continue to overtake when the dual merged into single, crossing into the chevrons braking desperately to try and merge before the oncoming traffic. Never a dull moment on the A9 🙁
Not wanting to seem cynical or anything, but is this not a short term option until the whole A9 gets dualled, but once the cheap option has been implemented, then dualling becomes less of an issue so less need to spend money there.
Given that contracts for the some of the A9 upgrading have just been handed out, I think your cynicism is, in this case, unfounded.
On the other hand, if it was cheaper [i]and it worked[/i] why carry on with the upgrade 😉
IIRC the plans include a segregated cycle path for those sections that currently don't have one.
IIRC the plans include a segregated cycle path for those sections that currently don't have one.
Bearing in mind Sustrans recent prognostications on the subject, I imagine they will stick average speed cameras on those too.
Given that contracts for the some of the A9 upgrading have just been handed out, I think your cynicism is, in this case, unfounded.
oh good - must by my natural mistrust of pollytishuns.
Cycle track would make sense it shouldn't add much to the cost idf there's work going on anyway
Depends on the kind of road. If the limit is much lower than what feels like a "natural" speed to drive, then I'll be looking at my speedo a lot more.
Well actually I won't cos my car doesn't have a UK reg. plate. Royal PITA overtaking trucks limited to 40 on a single lane road in a LHD car though.
Of course if all cars come with cruise control with a max speed limiter mode, then it's a brilliant idea (handy feature for roadworks too).
Its a road I try and avoid to be honest.
I don't believe speeding is the issue try setting your cruise control at 65mph indicated and see how long you can travel on the A9 before you catch a queue of cars.
The problem on the A9 is the mixture of traffic travelling at different speeds
If they enforce a 40mph limit for HGV's it will be a nightmare - big tailbacks of people not overtaking the HGV, or waiting their turn which is the same thing.
Or big tailbacks waiting behind Mr 42mph in his Hyundai i20 not wanting to overtake because the don't know what average means.
Queues of cars doing 60 mph in the outside lane of the dual carriageway bits because they don't know the speed limit is 70
So I'll continue to try an avoid it
[quote=richmtb ]
If they enforce a 40mph limit for HGV's it will be a nightmare - big tailbacks of people not overtaking the HGV, or waiting their turn which is the same thing.
If they enforced a 40mph limit then overtaking would be easier, not harder.
They should also be able to identify HGVs and so control their speed better. I'd rather overtake a truck travelling at 40mph than one doing 55-60mph.
Pretty sure that they can.
Has anyone on here ever been caught by an average speed camera ? I don't know a single person who has been, normal speed cameras yes but not average
If they enforce a 40mph limit for HGV's it will be a nightmare - big tailbacks of people not overtaking the HGV, or waiting their turn which is the same thing.
I don't think molgrips makes it up that far very often though.
If they enforced a 40mph limit then overtaking would be easier, not harder.
Well yes in so far as overtaking an HGV travelling at 40 mph is easier than overtaking an HGV doing 50mph
But no in the fact that the HGV will now be travelling slower than the majority of the traffic so will hold up more of the traffic.
A good proportion of this traffic will never attempt an overtake on a single carriageway road so a massive queue will form.
I'm on the A9 twice a day and I cant see the problem with it. The only delays I ever really get are when they upgrade bits.
Does anyone know the relationship between accidents at single carriageway section/junctions(eg Newtonmore/dalwhinnie) and those caused by excessive speed. Dual carriageway is the only solution, I don't think ave speed cameras are any more helpfull than reduced speeds(40/50) and speed cameras at the traditional black spots. More single/dual signs in multi languages would help
I'm on the A9 twice a day and I cant see the problem with it. The only delays I ever really get are when they upgrade bits.
Everyone expects the speed limit to be the minimum speed limit though, so you get the crazy overtaking.
I suspect that it won't take the impatient long to work out that, after several miles in a 45 mph queue, they'll be "Ok" for a 90 mph overtake of those three cars and a lorry in front, then settle to 60 without exceeding the average.
Much as now?
Apparently the cameras are going to start at the Dunblane roundabout, all the way along past Gleneagles to Perth, then all the way to Inverness.
At A9, and Northern Ireland are the only two places where I see trucks driving at their 40mph single carriageway limit. Theres no campaign that I'm aware of to promote or enforce the limit on that stretch so I don't know why its so fastidiously observed there
Here on the route of the A76 theres frequent signs reminding trucks of the 40mph limit but I've never witnessed trucks even nearly obeying that limit and I've never seen any action to try and enforce it either
and saw a Range rover sport doing over a ton desperately try to continue to overtake when the dual merged into single, crossing into the chevrons braking desperately to try and merge before the oncoming traffic. Never a dull moment on the A9
Yep, been there done that. Probably overtaken more cars on that road than any other in the UK, often 20 or so in one go.....
I was happy to see more "dual carriageway in 5 miles" sort of signs, that's a really good idea. Possibly some "This bit is single carriageway you dick" signs would be good too.
TBH, I am a pretty calm driver but that road does seem to bring out the worst in people. I'd like to sit at one of the dual carriageway sections with a rifle and spend a day murdering anyone who a) dawdles along the singles at 40/50 then boots it as soon as it duals, or b) decides to try and overtake the 40mph dawdler in front of them at 42mph and ends up spending half the dual section bunging up the road. Oh and for balance let's do some c)s, people trying to overtake right at the end of the duals and running out.
Obviously when I say "brings out the worst in people" I include myself, I am not normally a murderer.
but that road does seem to bring out the worst in people.
Agreed. The A9 and the A5 in Wales, just seem to encourage insane speed and overtaking, of which I have been guilty of.
I was happy to see more "dual carriageway in 5 miles" sort of signs, that's a really good idea. Possibly some "This bit is single carriageway you dick" signs would be good too.
I'd have preferred them to have the signs in minutes rather than miles - but I think those signs are a big improvement and they're long overdue, it seems like having the prospect of big improvement like duelling the road somewhere on the horizon seems to preclude small improvements like.. a handful of signs.
More important than being told how far to the next duelled section though... is being told how long the duelled section will last - some are long, some are very short but you only get 400 yds notice that they're finishing leading to a lot of
and saw a Range rover sport doing over a ton desperately try to continue to overtake when the dual merged into single, crossing into the chevrons braking desperately to try and merge before the oncoming traffic
Agreed. The A9 and the A5 in Wales, just seem to encourage insane speed and overtaking, of which I have been guilty of.
Ah, the A5 - my old stomping ground. Curiously, I felt much safer on that road once I actually got a fast car. Overtake in confidence than carry on at 60 un-ruffled. That said, the 'chicken run' section near Os was always a bit of an eye-opener. Trucks trying to overtake trucks head on 😯
The A9, probably our paramedics top destination at work. Followed closely by the A82.
Grim when folk get it wrong.
Sounds like the A1 in Northumberland.
Can I hazard a guess at the A1 being at it riskiest late afternoon/early evening with a high rate of motorcyclists being involved?
To be honest, too early for us to do any decent statistical analysis. But there definitely appears to be an emerging pattern.
Can I hazard a guess at the A1 being at it riskiest late afternoon/early evening with a high rate of motorcyclists being involved?
It's bad all the time but worst is weekends or holiday seasons. Still they're considering upgrading to dual again so in 30 years time they'll be at the same stage as they were when the first started 30 years ago, still talking.
Motorcyclist use the A697 for their 'fun'.
Slightly OT Drac, but I'm curious. Do you know what the average daily call out rate for ground based paramedics is?
[i] I drive along at a steady 50 in my van and I'm constantly getting flashed by HGVs that somehow manage to catch up with me [/i]
Probably due to their speedo been accurate and yours over-reading. So they're doing showing 45mph and actually doing 45mpg whereas you're showing 50mph and actually doing 45mph.
And they are paid to drive as fast as possible (within the limits).
Maybe someone needs to check with the big trucking/retail/distribution firms what speed they EXPECT their drivers to average across the A9?
But, I'd say that a more likely contributing factor is the unability of car drivers to overtake properly, and the cameras will just make them more likely to just sit behind slower moving vehicles.
Not daily but some info here http://www.neas.nhs.uk/about-us/who-we-are-and-what-we-do.aspx
It'll be easily 1k - 1.2k calls per day
VFR weather permitting on par with what we are doing, at least for the last fortnight. Although we don't have 2000 staff. More like 17.
Interesting, I'll have to dig out the Scottish equivalent of that page.
b r - I should have said that I do account for speedo error
VFR?
Sorry I'm rubbish with acronyms.
Coming from Inverness and now living in Glasgow, we frequently travel North and beyond to see my family. I've stopped counting how many time I've driven the A9 and been 'stressed' by the time it's over. Depending on the time of day we now tend to take the slightly slower A82 as opposed to a stressed out trip up the A9.
IMO I find it rather bemusing when people pass me a great speed on the dual bits and then cannie overtake for toffee and sit behind slower vehicles when the road is clear and safe for overtaking. Over the years I driven both roads rather swiftly and sometimes very sedately. I've learned that by sitting at a steady 60ish we often only take a few minutes longer than if I drive like a demon. That being said I would still seize most OT opportunities that came my way.
Again, IME and with the exception of the summer 'tourist' months I've found the A82 offers a far 'safer and less stressful' road to travel on. Why? IMO it's because the queues of traffic very seldom form in the same way as they do on the A9 and therefore there aren't as many 'frustrated' folk trying to find as many 'near death' experiences as they can on the A9. I enjoy driving and as above the A82 usually only takes a few minutes longer if I sit at a steady 60 AND take every OT opportunity.
Will average speed cameras work on the A9? IMO it depends on how what we mean by 'work'. My fear would be that the queues could just get worse because some less confident drivers may be less inclined to overtake the slower vehicles because of the cameras. IMO that could lead to even more frustration and in turn result in more daft overtaking manoeuvres by some.
Good / bad drivers are a constant. Some people are confident drivers and will safely overtake whilst some aren't so confident and will be less inclined to overtake. All types of drivers can cause crashes. You can be the best driver in the world but if some nutter pulls out in front of you, your'e still brown bread.
It's a state of mind, 'Drive prettily' as my old man always says.
VFR?
Visual flight regulations / rules - I assume he's aircraft-based
Cheers Zokes.
Aircraft doing 1,000 jobs a day errrr really?
Tesco trucks are noticeable by the way they stick to speed limits and regularly pull in to allow overtaking. Mind you, there are a lot less now they have their own freight train.
Ha ha, how did I miss read that.
1 to 2 flights a day.
Ah that's more like it.
😆
We're quite a way into this years fatality season for the A9, and it seems better than in previous years.
Travelling north on it yesterday though, I saw some of the worst driving I've ever done on that or any other road. Caravans, 40mph HGVs, motorbikes and locals in a hurry can be a pretty potent mix.
Given the chance on the A9 I find a truck moving at a decent speed and hide behind it.
Drac, I think what I was really curious about was the number of call outs per crew per day.
Drac, I think what I was really curious about was the number of call outs per crew per day.
Too many variants there for that as you can see it covers a big geographical area so you have city crews that have short runs to hospital and bigger workload then we have community single crewed vehicles that do well not very much at all.
City crew sI'd say at least 12 jobs per shift, rural town crew such as where I work who have at least 50m+ round trip to hospital then 5-6 jobs per shift. All crews work more or less 12 hours per day.
I'd have preferred them to have the signs in minutes rather than miles
I'm absolutely sure the yellow digital signs last weekend were in minutes not miles, but I found them to be a bit misleading, probably because the traffic wasn't going the speed the signs were calculated at!
I've learned that by sitting at a steady 60ish we often only take a few minutes longer than if I drive like a demon
Yep if it is busy and people are doing that stupid overtaking one car a time, you still arrive at the destination/next cagged up bit a few seconds or minutes behind the cars that are risking their own and everyone else's lives by overtaking car by car in tiny gaps (which must be a small penis thing or something), so I just cruise along and pass lorries on the dual bits, stop at house of Pooar, ice cream at the Hermitage, happy days.
Don't know if anyone has said this already but the A9 is a fairly unique road. It was designed as a dual road which is particulary noticable round about Aviemore. The layout and sweeping bends are for a dual carriageway which most of was never built. There are hardly any straight bits most of which were added / altered later.
Now a lot of these bends you can overtake with a fastish car particularly if a single vehicle. But when big queues for it can get pretty crazy.
The speed difference is the main problem. Personally i don't really want to drive at 45mph on all the 2 way stretches.
Coming from Inverness originally and still going up the road regularly i have driven it 100's of times. It is much much more busy in recent years.
My A9 driver grumbles.
1) Nutter overtaking - trying to kill people.
2) Slow 40-45 mph vehicles that never pull over
3) People don't leave gaps. and you wonder why people overtake 2 lorries and 3 cars in one go.
4) 60 mph or less on 2 way 80-85mph on dual WHY?
5) Wackey races on overtaking lanes & dual sections. hands up myself included.
6) Nutter overtaking followed by 60 ish holding others up.
Recently drove up late evening was bliss cruised up no bother. Will be doing that again.
20yrs ago on the A9 my wife who went on an intensive driving course in Dunkeld witnessed a full head on about 4 cars ahead of her. That has stayed with her for life. The only other incident was a drunk falling out of a pub in Pitlochry on to the bonnet of her car! We are always very careful when visiting family and friends up there. We play spot the numpty and count how many near misses there are while keeping a good distance from the car in front.
I had a close call last time I drove south on the A9 between the two stretches of dual carriageway near Ralia.
The car in front was traveling well below 60 but hugging the centre line on the single carriageway. It had tinted windows so visibility through the car was impossible and the long sweeping arc of the road made a temporary blind spot for me. I was a couple of car lengths behind him when suddenly without indicating he dived towards the hard shoulder line crossing it. A nanosecond later I realized why, some idiot in a Mini was overtaking a lorry heading towards us. I can only guess they thought they were still on a dual section, but there was the car in front of me, myself and a couple of cars behind me heading towards the oncoming Mini.
You can never build safety into a road when people are driving with that recklessness or incompetence.
I fear that the introduction of speed cameras will make that sort of incident more common.
I regularly see people driving too close to each other, standing on their brakes and unable to maintain a safe diastance between the cars in front.
Signage has improved on the road, but so too has traffic.
There was a fatal head on crash at the sloch a couple of years ago where a van was on the wrong side of the road.
The first car coming the other way saw it an swerved off the road. They were ok. The second in line car didn't and hit head on. They didn't survive. Where it was you would not expect something coming on the wrong side.
Not related but l totally agree mcmoonter many people drive too close.