[Closed] Ashes 2013

No-one in England really cares about cricket anyway (just following what the Aussies claimed when they were losing all the time - can we assume they care again now? 😉 ).

grum - Member
No-one in England really cares about cricket anyway (just following what the Aussies claimed when they were losing all the time - can we assume they care again now? ).

It certainly seems that way. They also seem to be suffering collective amnesia about the last three series

So moving on, Starting XI for MCG?

Boycott
Vaughan
Strauss
Bell
Prior
Botham
Stokes
Agnew
Tuffers
Broard

This Australian team are a pretty average bunch really. A couple of decent players maybe, the rest are brawlers, alcoholics and chokers.

But, and it's a big but, they have been ably led and coached by people who have identified weaknesses in the opposition and exploited them.

England of the other hand are just toilet. Self confidence is admirable but it has to be justified. The cracks have been evident for a while now. Poor planning has led to this. No plan B, players who put in repeated poor performances and don't get dropped and too many ****tish egos.

That was gifted to the bogans on a plate.
It's not the start of the some long reigning dynasty for australia, the big bash league will be starting and it's back to your 6 and out cricket with fireworks and pom-poms to earn $$$$$'s
England will have to regroup and changes needed but not sweeping ones just a reshuffle and a change of attitude, there's some new talent waiting in the wings that will need to be introduced. Interested to see where they go from here.

@zokes.

Yes I have broken my own taboo. So, seeing as I have fallen into my own trap, can you have a go at blindly defending Pietersen? Go on, just for old times sake.

Your 'defend the indefensible' is:

It's ok to hole out to long on when you should be batting to save the game so long as you are Kevin Pietersen.

Discuss.

Prepare to trot out:

"It's the way he plays"
"You have to take the rough with the smooth"
"He's played great innings in the past"
"He's just misunderstood"

Yawn.

@DannyH

Why Not, it's a dull boring game that takes 5 days loose even though you know you have lost on day 1. It's only fair to entertain the poor fans who have traveled a long way to watch the drivel that England are producing. It was up to KP to entertain and make people feel good about Cricket without him the tour would be a complete loss.

SA must be really looking forward to hosting Australia, and to be honest India probably fancy their chances against this shower of an England team even in England.

@dannyh

Calm down, we don't need a A_A-style borefest on this thread. You made your point. Some of our views differ to yours. Deal with it.

So can I take that as confirmation that you think the manner of his dismissals in this series have been fairly scandalous given the match situations in which they occurred?

There are other players who need to be worried as well as Pietersen, but there are two things that make him especially culpable.

Firstly the manner in which he has given his wicket away suggests absolutely no consideration for the team or the result. This may be accidental (in which case he is a pillock) or more 'I'm KP and I play how I want' (in which case he is disruptive pillock.

Secondly he has manoeuvred himself into quite a clever position. To drop him will mean having to indulge in all sorts of media justification. It will also probably prompt an immediate retirement from international cricket (aka a tantrum), thus enabling the media to level a charge of 'denying the team it's best player'.

I really don't need to calm down, I'm quite clear and there is no conflict in me - Pietersen has to go. If he can't handle that and retires, then so be it.

Nearly all of this current team should be worried, however it think most of them have the humility to accept this and try to rebuild their reputations the correct way. I don't think Pietersen does.

I really feel for Cook. I hope Flower doesn't hang him out to dry by making him make all the decisions.

So can I take that as confirmation that you think the manner of his dismissals in this series have been fairly scandalous given the match situations in which they occurred?

No, you can stop trolling for a rise. The manner of[u] some[/u] of his dismissals has been scandalous. Others, such as his second innings in Adelaide, were pretty unlucky. Many of the batsmen, Bell included, and Cook especially, got themselves out in stupid ways (though thankfully none quite so farcical as Watto, but Bell was culpable both for not catching it, then failing to spot the run out there).

We get that you don't like KP. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to achieve by ramming this viewpoint any further down our throats.

I really feel for Cook.

I don't. He was outmanoeuvred by Clarke of all people at just about every level of captaining the fielding side.

So merely asking someone to comment on something they have been vocal on in the past is 'trolling' now is it?

It seems your definition of 'trolling' may be tainted by your own inability to to be objective when it comes to KP.

It is clear we aren't going to agree on this, so does that now mean I am not allowed to mention it? Will I have to use code?

So merely asking someone to comment on something they have been vocal on in the past is 'trolling' now is it?

When you do so repeatedly, and in a deliberately goading manner with clearly no intention of debating, rather just stating how right you think you are, then yes, that's trolling.

You made your point: some agreed, others disagreed and pointed out that there are several others equally (if not more) culpable here, not least gormless Captain Cook, whose dismissal in the second innings at Adelaide was the most stupid bit of cricket I've ever witnessed from an England player (Bell's fielding of Watto being a possible exception, but then I only listened to that, rather than watching it).

KP has a responsibility to the team, and one that on occasion he clearly forgets. However, Cook is the captain of the team. If the cap fits, he must wear it. Most of his dismissals have been atrocious, and his fielding strategy has been clueless from the moment we've been under pressure. Ironically, there have been a couple of suggested fielding/bowling strategy changes suggested by KP that have yielded wickets. He also actually has a better tour average than Cook, make of that what you will.

I'm not sure KP wanted to cleverly manoeuvre himself into a situation which would only arise if he wasn't scoring runs. Don't forget this is a guy who wants to play till 2016 and had to grovel his way back into the team. You may as well replace KP's name with several other senior players - of course the Management would have to justify dropping them, it could lead to retirement and the media not being best pleased. A more obvious reason why he is more culpable is being the star batsman he should be setting the example to the youngsters.

I'd also like to pick up a point from your post about Cook being outdone in the captaincy stakes by Clarke. It is very difficult to envisage a situation in this series so far when Cook has been able to exhibit his captaincy skills. No runs on the board and equipped with bowlers who are neither taking wickets nor restricting runs. Granted they have had the Aussies five down for less than par a couple of times, but I'm not sure how Cook could have capitalised on these moments any better than he has. Clarke has had some good plans. The KP two mid wickets was one, but when the batsman doesn't have to walk straight into it.

Cook's batting form has also deserted him, but you can't accuse him of not trying. His very essence is that of a trier. He is now batting so deep in the crease that he has no price against a ball that deviates even slightly. That Harris ball that did him for a goldie was a good ball, no mistake. But it only clipped the top of the stump. If he had got a stride in and been hit on the front pad, the initial decision may have been not out. The review may then have saved him if it was a half ball impact. On such small matters big things can rest.

I will apologise, however, for being passionate about this! I grew up from the age of 11 to 28 with the England cricket team being humped by Australia, and to hand the initiative back to a mediocre Aussie team just pisses me off.

Why is the spotlight shining so brightly on KP apart from Stokes no body has shone with the bat,

I think that the Aussies were desperate for this win and stuck to a game plan, targetted Swan and KP which has worked. Trott leaving in the way he did I think has upset everyone way more that they have let on.

Management has been a bit complacent.

Its not the end of the world the sun will come up tomorrow and the next series will be just as exciting.

[quote=zokes said]The manner of some of his dismissals has been scandalous. Others, such as his second innings in Adelaide, were pretty unlucky.

Ah, so he got one good ball. Some being 5, others being 1. In case you've forgotten here are the edited highlights of his dismissals (credit http://www.espncricinfo.com/):

Pietersen has clipped it straight to midwicket. Australia have thought they can get Pietersen that way. It was full on middle, it came right out of the screws, but straight to George Bailey.

Pietersen is heading back to the dressing room, where he'll get to mull his shot choice of a fresh cup of what-the-hell-was-that?

Pietersen takes a little step down the pitch and clips straight to short midwicket and again Pietersen falls right into the trap.

Siddle didn't nip it back much, but just enough, and it has caught the inside edge and Pietersen has played on. (oh, a good ball)

Pietersen sticks his bat under his arm and heads off, it's the way he plays but he'll know that shot wasn't really what England needed.

Pietersen has gone trying to play another big shot

In comparison half of Cook's dismissals have been to good balls (and one of the others wasn't actually poor shot selection).

For the record I'm actually a Pieterson fan - he hasn't always played this way, which is why he's so highly valued. He really does need to sort his head out, or somebody needs to have a talk to him (the question is who he will listen to).

It is very difficult to envisage a situation in this series so far when Cook has been able to exhibit his captaincy skills.

I'll give you three examples:

132-6 - Gabba
174-4 - Adelaide
143-5 - Waca

On all three occasions, England were on top with all the momentum, and failed to do to the Aussie tail what they did so successfully to ours. Strong captaincy and innovative fielding and bowling changes might have kept that momentum. Instead, on each occasion we allowed Haddin, who whilst good, is no Gilchrist, to dictate terms and wrestle the initiative back.

but you can't accuse him of not trying

But I can. He just seemed to give up when it wasn't going well in the field (feeding Clarke singles at the Gabba in the hope that Broad might bounce him out), and as I said, his shot selection (and as you highlight his technique also) have left him very open to that accusation. Don't get me wrong, I really rate him as a player, but using the same yardstick as you are for KP, he's got oodles of talent and has failed quite spectacularly to demonstrate it, often with careless or stupid shots. Devil's advocate at this stage, but KP did try to hit it beyond the fielder at long on, you know. I won't defend his shot, but he did try to hit a six, and Lyon out of the attack. Ultimately, bar Broad, Stokes, and perhaps Root, all are culpable either through poor application, or just not being good enough in the first place (I like Bressers, but he'll never routinely worry the best test batsmen, nor bowlers).

and to hand the initiative back to a mediocre Aussie team just pisses me off.

It pisses you off? Try living here! 😳

They all seem to have suddenly become really keen on a sport I'd barely heard a whisper of until about two weeks ago. If I didn't know what cricket was, for the past 3 ½ years I've been here I still wouldn't until now.

[quote=Pigface said]Why is the spotlight shining so brightly on KP apart from Stokes no body has shone with the bat

Because he is so much better than this. Certainly the most talented player on either team, arguably the most talented in world cricket at the moment (possibly even the most talented during his career). Some of the other batsmen are struggling to cope - Pieterson is giving it away needlessly.

I don't think the comparison with Cook is fair. Cook certainly isn't in top form and is struggling - his poor shot selection has been very uncharacteristic and hints at him needing to do something different because he knows he's not playing well. It's hard to say whether Pieterson is in form, but it's certainly not lack of form which has led to him getting out most of the time - unless of course with Pieterson being in form means he doesn't play stupid shots.

Note the words I used in my first paragraph - Cook might be a better batsman then Pieterson (he certainly has been at some points in his career), but a lot of that is down to hard work, application and willpower.

Cook has almost the same number of test runs as KP, and I think he has more centuries. He's achieved this at a much younger age, and all whilst facing the new ball rather than hiding at 4/5 in the middle order. He'll certainly eclipse KP's record provided he does regain form. To me, that makes him a better player, so the expectation on him to demonstrate this should remain.

Feeling is if KP applied himself he would be th ebest in the world instead he makes daft decisions and gives his wicket away hence he is blamed

Form may come and go but Pietersens decision making errors are eternal

I'm siding with Dannyh on Cook. It's easy to be an innovative captain when you hold the whip hand, when you're being flogged it's much harder. Yes, a couple of times we've had the Aussies under pressure and failed to capitalise, but we always knew in Aus that you make inroads for 35 or 40 overs and then the ball goes soft, and you need patience. Trouble is that no one, but swann in particular hasn't been able to repel the aus counter attack and hold an end at 2 an over, hence their tail has got them back in it. Whereas our batters have shut up, and then been blown away by fresh pacemen when the new ball comes. And so plan a, attack, has been followed by a failed plan b of keeping it tight for the next new ball, and we've conspicuously failed to have plan c, which I put more to the coaching and tactical staff.

I'm worried that the pressure of captaining a failing team could prevent cook from getting back to the heights he's clearly capable of. We need his runs and I think with carberry, maybe the beginnings of a capable opening pair, more than we need his brand of captaincy.

Of course there's much more to his captaincy than calling the bowling changes and moving the field about, and maybe he's still the right man to unite and galvanise them, but not at the detriment of runs, because without runs at the top of the order, we'll always struggle.

Yes, the point I was trying to make is that Clarke's job has been made much easier because his batsman are scoring runs, the bowlers are taking wickets and the fielders are taking blinders. Contrast with England.

Anyhow, I think Cook is not a particularly brilliant captain, but he is the only bloke in the England dressing room with the experience, nous, and (until this series) a secure enough place in the team. I have always liked Clarke, he has shown more 'ticker' than a lot of the 'ocker' Aussies give him credit for. He is a beautifully balanced batsman. He is a better captain than Cook in my opinion, but not miles better. The bloke who should (and probably would) have been captaining England had it not been for the poisonous influence of KP is Strauss. I would recommend reading the "it's hard being Kevin" article at the front of the 2013 Wisden for a balanced summing up of the issue.

Man for man, England should have won this series (on paper). Man for man, England have been totally outplayed. On this series, can anyone think that England would get more than two players into the 'team of the series'?

Anyway zokes now has a place in my esteem. I think I had realised you lived in aus as a Brit, so keep your chin up fella. I don't know if you play cricket over there, but if you do, I'd recommend a DR Jardine harlequin cap and an aloof attitude.

ah fun and games, should we all meet back here with a mince/meat pie and a warm mulled wine/cold beer on the 26th?

First test I stayed up all night to watch. Second test, up late and then up early to catch the start and close of the day. Third test with the smaller time difference - up early to see the middle session before going to work.

So yes, i'll be here for the fourth test too. But be warned, England, I'm beginning to lose my patience......

What else to do but sit on the sofa with a slab of beer in the fridge and watch the cricket on Boxing Day? Some Australian traditions aren't so bad!

+1 on the Trott departure upsetting the team balance/morale. It's not been used as an excuse but must have hit hard.

+1 on the Trott departure upsetting the team balance/morale. It's not been used as an excuse but must have hit hard.

But looking back at the players that have left the side this isn't the team that won in the summer or the winners from before there have been small changes along the road but the core of old players remained and the results kept coming. No alarm bells rang until it was too late.

I really hope Trott returns to the team, he is one of those grounded solid guys that it needs to be built on. Lets see if we can keep Stokes away from the Flintoff path too.

What else to do but sit on the sofa with a slab of beer in the fridge and watch the cricket on Boxing Day? Some Australian traditions aren't so bad!

That reminds me, must get my dad put on the insurance so he can drive to Hobart while I look after the slab with the radio on...(it's one of the citizenship tests I think)

 

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/ashes-loss-happened-too-far-away-to-count-2013121882133 ]It doesn't matter...[/url]

[url= http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/cricket/25481772 ]Swann Retires[/url] from all forms of the game? Wonder if he was going to be dropped or just decided to enjoy the rest of the holiday?

This just gets better and better...

I went to school with Andrew Gale. He f'in loved practicing slip catches in the common room.

If he's not got the desire then I'm glad he's decided to go. He was a great cricketer though and was often a joy to watch bowl. The Aussies are probably s****ing and thinking what a choker but he won ashes series and bowled them out often enough.
This is turning into one of those series though, just need somebody in tears, a punch up and a ball tampering incident to make it complete.

If he's not got the desire then I'm glad he's decided to go. He was a great cricketer though and was often a joy to watch bowl. The Aussies are probably s****ing and thinking what a choker but he won ashes series and bowled them out often enough.

Leaving halfway through a series, particularly the ashes, especially when you are 3 down is pathetic.

You want to know why we are so shit in this series? If Swann's attitude is prevalent through the squad, there's your reason.

Maybe he knows he just doesn't cut it anymore, he said he wasn't taking wickets late in the match and it's time for somebody else to have a go.
He contributed to 3 ashes wins but isn't able to perform at that level. Better to go than wait to be pushed IMHO.

The Aussies are probably s****ing and thinking what a choker

Judging by comments over here, I'd say that those are in the minority.

Swann's only failure in leaving halfway through is that he didn't retire before the series. But that said, I'm pretty sure any one of us would have fancied one last crack at 'em when pondering timing of retirement. This way he leaves two dead rubbers to see whether Monty can retake his spot, or whether "hit me for six" Kerrigan has the balls.

The series is over and it's time for change, he's just made it easier for Cook and Flower.

Sounds like a case of ,ive been crap so have the team I`m jacking it all in and going home for Xmas and you lot can face the flak without me .Those central contracts will see me alright for money and my autobiography will be out for next Xmas !

Perhaps like others in the current set-up, another failure might be his/their preferred choice of pronoun. Too many defaulting to the first person singular version which says a lot. Marked contrast between this and the All Black culture (if my current reading is anything to go by).

Probably was told he'd been dropped for the 4th test and decided to jump before being [publicly] pushed.

Perhaps he was going to retire at the end of the series (expected to be his last tour anyway), but was told he wasn't playing in the next test. Makes sense if he's no longer first choice and his hearts not in it.

Just speculating though, I don't know, or care really, he's made his choice for what he feels is the right reasons which is all anyone can do.

Don't be bitter.

Don't be bitter.

This. He's been a major part of many series wins over the past few years. Be grateful.

This. He's been a major part of many series wins over the past few years. Be grateful.

Oh I'm grateful alright. He's been a hugely effective weapon since 2008 and has contributed massively to our successes.

However I stick with my first comment on the matter. Retiring mid series is gutless and smacks of the sort of selfishness that leads to a 5-0 series defeat.

To my mind if he had been told he was dropped for the next test(or possibly both) and that's what's prompted this I think it's poor form. You went out as a squad and you stay united as a squad, even if it's a turgid experience and you have a limited part to play. As a senior player there was plenty he could have done to encourage and support the others from the dressing room. I hope I'm wrong but on face value he has dropped in my estimation. Quite a sad end to a great career.

However I stick with my first comment on the matter. Retiring mid series is gutless and smacks of the sort of selfishness that leads to a 5-0 series defeat.

So you'd rather he stayed and continued to perform at a standard he knew was no longer competitive?

So you'd rather he stayed and continued to perform at a standard he knew was no longer competitive?

I'd rather he stayed and supported his team mates. Let the selectors decide if he is the best we have to offer and put him in the team even in his 'diminished' state.

So you'd rather he stayed and continued to perform at a standard he knew was no longer competitive?

Its mid series he is the first choice he should stay till the end.

Do you reckon he would have done this if it was say 2-1 to either side ?

Right decision, but woeful timing. Surely you have to stay on tour and see it through?

This really is becoming a mid-90s effort now. There'll be about 8 fully fit players getting off that plane at heathrow, the rest on crutches or with thousand yard stares, just like the good ol days. Some will have been choppered out mid-tour.

****ing Great.

So you'd rather he stayed and continued to perform at a standard he knew was no longer competitive?

I'd rather he showed the team, the badge and the supporters some respect and turned himself inside out for the rest of the tour regardless of how he felt or whether he was picked.

I'd rather he showed the team, the badge and the supporters some respect and turned himself inside out for the rest of the tour regardless of how he felt or whether he was picked.

Exactly.

Yossarian has it perfectly. By all means retire at the end of the series (he was already out of the one day squad), but to do so now just seems petulant and selfish. Mind you, having played a fair bit of cricket with and against him in my teens, I would not say this was entirely out of character!

True it was probably time to go. His bowling has become very one-dimensional (no drift through the air to compliment any turn), and his batting has gone totally down the pan. When he was younger he was a genuine allrounder. I just wish he could have seen it through and retired with a bit more dignity and poise than abandoning a sinking ship.

Still, he has been a good player for a reasonably extended period of time and contributed greatly to three ashes wins, so I wouldn't like to see his record trashed completely.

There just might be more to this than we think. He was probably about to be dropped but there could well be some disagreements in the camp. Too many players are under performing - it can't be a happy place right now.

Maybe he felt if wasn't going to be playing he may as well be home with his family.

They'll probably win the last 2 tests and paper over the cracks again only to be exposed by India in the summer.

Maybe he felt if wasn't going to be playing he may as well be home with his family.

Surely that's the point here, though. That is not a healthy attitude to have towards your team and your teammates. He is being paid handsomely for being there too, remember.

I think England's recent successes have papered over many cracks that were already there. Anderson, Broad, Swann, and Pietersen are all self-absorbed characters who act like kids when things aren't going their way. Thankfully things have (mostly) gone their way over the last few years. If everyone in that team had the ethos that Prior and Cook in particular exhibit, then it don't think things would have imploded quite as badly as they have.

In terms of falls from grace, on a team level, this winter has been nothing short of astounding.

South Africa on way to breaking the world record run chase.

There's a lot crap being guessed here. The team are probably better off with Monty in it and if Swann was going to retire anyway he might as well do it now anyway. What's the point in him staying, although I've not read anything where it says he is going home, but if I was there I'd be telling him to go home and be with his family. He's done his fair share of tours away from home.

Do you reckon he would have done this if it was say 2-1 to either side ?

No. I also reckon he wouldn't have had the nagging realisation that he just wasn't good enough at this level any more, which is what precipitated this.

I'm not quite sure what staying, having made up his mind to retire and the series already lost, would have achieved. Made Monty nervous that he'll have his place back on the basis of his batting reputation? Prevented a new spinner from finding room in the squad?

South Africa on way to breaking the world record run chase.

9 runs short! Great effort though - must have been gutted. Apparently they were clinging on for the draw by the end (but then hit a six last ball).

I do suppose that cricket in general should be grateful to Swann in one major way. He could well be the last of the great straight arm off spinners. Vaughan was on the radio talking about how Swann had been 'lucky' to bowl in the era of DRS. But at least he didn't chuck it! Not something you can say about Murali, Saqlain, Harbhajan or Ajmal. England even had a go with our own off spin chucker (anyone remember Richard Dawson?)

But at least he didn't chuck it! Not something you can say about Murali, Saqlain, Harbhajan or Ajmal.

In fairly sure murali's action was investigated and verified as being proper. The umpire who kept on about it no longer stands.

I never got the impression that Swann was a quitter, so I get the feeling there is a hell of a lot more to this story than Swanny just feeling he can no longer contribute. I wouldn't be surprised if there had been some sort of incident and it was a case of the management giving him the choice of retiring and it kept quiet or sent home from tour in disgrace.
Either way it's a pretty disastrous tour, 3 down in the series and 2 of our best performers look set never to play for the team again. Only another 2 tests to go.

Welcome to the 90s - I don't think I'm the first to suggest that all we're waiting for is Pieterson (former captain, frustrating in the way he gives away his wicket needlessly) to buzz a match in a biplane.

In fairly sure murali's action was investigated and verified as being proper. The umpire who kept on about it no longer stands.

I think you might mean the ICC cacked its pants, 'checked' his action, changed the rules retrospectively and then said there wasn't a problem. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Which umpire by the way? Darryl Hair (who had a problem with Asian players in general and so was rightly edged out) or Ross Emerson, the umpire who called Murali for chucking because that's what he thought from square leg? Leading to Arjuna Ranatunga holding a gun to the head of the ICC by threatening to take his bat and ball and go home. Which then led to Emerson being hounded out of the higher echelons of umpiring for exposing the 'holy cow'. Very much in the way David Constant was with the ****stan team from 92.

This is an area where the ICC have let the promise of a 'crowd spectacle' override the basic laws of the game. Dishonourable mentions also to:

Harbhajan
Saqlain
Ajmal
Johan Botha
James Kirtley
Shabbir Ahmed
Shoiab Akhtar
Jermaine Lawson

Unfortunately the culture of turning a blind eye to dodgy actions is endemic now. In my playing days we played a team who had three out of five bowlers who were blatant chuckers. When I asked the umpire (amicably) whether he agreed he said "yes, of course, it's bloody obvious, but if I call him for chucking it gets referred up the line and will ultimately end up with a letter from Lords. It's just not worth it".

If it was 2-1 to either side of course swann would have stayed, as in all likelihood it would mean he was bowling well. However, if the man himself says he was increasingly struggling post op to do anything with the ball relatively when your time is up your time is up.

Yes, it was Hair the racist that I was referring to.

But it's not turning a blind eye to poor actions. You are correct in stating that the guidelines were changed, and that was because when forensically investigated, most bowlers' actions exceeded five degrees of flexation.

I can't find any info on Swann's action in particular to verify whether or not he too was technically a 'chucker' under the old rules.

Turning a blind eye to poor actions has been commonplace for a long time. Sonny Ramadin is one example of a bowler who is lionised, but was actually extremely suspect. Tony Lock also went a long time before being called. Whisper it quietly, but have a look at Ray Lindwall in slow motion as well.

None of this makes it alright, though!

There are telltale signs usually, though. A distinct 'jerk' of the arm is one (a jerk that is out of kilter with shoulder rotation). Invariably bowling with rolled down sleeves is another.

An umpire should be able to trust his eye without fear of being hounded into retirement, or getting a reprimand from higher authority if he sees an infringement.

Invariably bowling with rolled down sleeves is another.

So... Swanny, then?

Ha, yes - I did think that as I was typing it!

So, calypso collapso, or KP and Root to trot on?

CHANNEL 9 GET THAT ****ING PRICK PIERS ****ING MORGAN OFF MY TV NOW!!!!!!

Glad I'm not watching....

Bell gone. Here we go again...

New ball, Johnson, 90+mph, two overs, two wickets... There's the main difference between the teams right there. He's too good and too fast (at the moment) for our middle order and tail - actually make that the whole bloody line up!

He's too good and too fast (at the moment) for our middle order and tail - actually make that the whole bloody line up!

No he isn't - that much was demonstrated in Perth. He's not too good for them when they play well. Any bowler appears too good for them when they play as they have done for most of the day. Pity, Cook and Carberry were running along quite nicely, then, as usual, it all went tits up.

Bloody selfish of Pietersen.

Only interested in himself, grinding out 67no when all those team players fell cheaply... 🙄

Sorry mate the wickets speak for themselves. I didn't say he's brilliant just too good for us, both Stokes and Bresnan where done by pure pace, a great line and a little late movement - if that's not 'too good' then I don't know what is. I don't rate him as a world class bowler, he's just in a purple patch and will be undone by better batsman in tests to come but right now he's one big difference between the two teams. 25 wickets in four 3.1 tests! don't be so argumentative FFS.

Great quote from David Gower;

"That last spell from Johnson might have just tipped the day Australia's way"

Really DG? If England pass 275 tomorrow I'll be surprised. Then Australia on a good wicket with our bowling... Same story different venue unless someone steps up and does something special.

Sorry mate the wickets speak for themselves.

They do. They are mostly the result of batsmen throwing their wickets away, with a few jaffers (Cook's and Broad's spring to mind) thrown in. No Australian bowler has won this series for the Aussies, the abject performance of the English batsmen has done that for them. I think Steve Smith would get a Michelle against our lot the way they're currently playing.

Yes, MJ's quick, but not unplayable. Harris is by far the better bowler. The difference has been the English cacking themselves and doing stupid things.

If England can reach 300 then I reckon they have a good chance. Unless it rains this isn't going to be a draw.

Aussies batting last might show some nerves if they need 300ish to win?

Yes, MJ's quick, but not unplayable. Harris is by far the better bowler.

Yep, with you there completely and I also agree that a lot of this is down to England's mental attitude but Johnson is much to blame for this, he has them rattled. Gower is a client of mine and I had a chat with him a few years ago about facing the West Indies attack (back then) - his comment was that when the ball hits 90+ make yourself a very thin target 😯

It appears England have got it into their head that it's about surviving and this is very bad for a batsman, only KP is showing much (mental) resilience but we know how he likes to toss things up every now and then. I do hope he goes on tomorrow, for all his faults he's a joy to watch and a good score here will silence his naysayers.

and a good score here will silence his naysayers.

He could score 1000 runs in both innings and I still very much doubt he'd achieve that. H8rz gonna h8, etc.