[Closed] Are the Chinese doping?

Absolutely, 100% yes.

It does seem pretty amazing what she achieved though. To go several seconds quicker than her personal best is quite incredible. The alternative argument made by one of the commentators (not sure who he was) is that when you're young, it's not wholly unusual to better your PB by quite a big margin. The steep learning curve of experience coupled with the enormity of the event could explain the result.

Then again.....

Doping control at the Olympics is all well and good and of course all medal winners are tested. But how does the testing work for the other 364 days when they aren't winning a medal?

She has got very big hands. I imagine if you select early in life for physical attributes, sooner or later you find some people perfectly formed to do well at whatever sport.

Other than that your question is impossible to answer here, unless anyone here has actual inside knowledge.

But how does the testing work for the other 364 days when they aren't winning a medal?

As far as I know, in a very similar way.

From the beeb:

'Australian swimming legend and BBC analyst Ian Thorpe adds his view to the Ye Shiwen controversy: "How we should talk about it is that we should take away the nationality. If we had an athlete from Team GB who dropped three seconds we would say 'Wow'. I took five seconds off my time in the 400m freestyle from 15-16. We have to remember young swimmers can take off chunks of time others can't. We should wait. This is what I don't like in sport, when people are successful people say it is because of drugs."'

doping through anatomical selection? seems ok to me.

until proven otherwise it's either:

xenophobia
sour grapes
slander

I don't know what anti doping controls swimming has. If they don't have the same as road cycling do now - eg EPO blood and urine tests, transfusion tests, biologicial profiling, etc then there will almost certainly be doping in the sport. Whether the Chinese themselves are is certainly a reasonable question then given the level of performance - it's very reminiscent of the bad old days of cycling - but you'll need to question all outstanding performances, not just the Chinese's

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/07/30/clamp-quickly-tightening-on-olympic-doping/

All we can do is speculate

THREAD CLOSED

We'll have no speculating on here.

from reading the question is simply her performance for the last leg is quick, as in almost as fast as pure freestyle and the mens version of the race, the speed difference between the legs is unusually large.

She might not be doping, but we only have to look at cycling to see that unusual results are often drug assisted.

THREAD OPEN AGAIN....

To be fair to the septic, he didn't accuse her of taking drugs, he said her performance was unbelievable.....which it was, considering it was faster than the mens version!

On that basis it is unbelievable, as women NEVER beat men in strength/speed events.

As far as I know, in a very similar way.

In the article the IOC director says that their mandate for doping control only covers the period from when the athletes enter the Olympic village. It does not cover any period before that.

Testing out of competition is down to national governing bodies and from the article, it sounds like it's a case of self policing.

It may be speculation, but John Leonard's highly informed and expert speculation is pretty convincing.

Typical spiteful accusations thrown around by very sore losers.
The US know that China has concentrated strongly on developing swimming since 2008, and with their population and investment, its inevitable that they find some young stars.
The US are getting desperate and playing dirty.

gt, it was Mark Foster who made those comments and he knows a bit more about swimming than most.
They were made in response to Balding's implied accusations of doping immediately after the race, although I can't find the link at the mo.
As he said, she is tested, and if you can't improve at the age of 16, when can you?

She's racing tonight too in her stronger event, 20:43 in the 200m medley. Hope she wins.

Good article in the bbc on chinese swimming.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18945809

Unless you have splits for each leg then this is still speculation. She might have been pacing herself for an all out attack at the end where the men went for it at the start then tailed off in the end. Overall Lochte was 23 seconds faster than her so where's the problem. Last Olympics the winning woman was 26 seconds slower and that was with Phelps getting a new world record in the mens race. The US coach sounds like he has a really bad case of sour grapes.

Until proven I'd rather think she was clean.

Typical spiteful accusations thrown around by very sore losers.
The US know that China has concentrated strongly on developing swimming since 2008, and with their population and investment, its inevitable that they find some young stars.
The US are getting desperate and playing dirty

Yeh he's American, therefore a bad loser and almost certainly evil.

She beat the fastest man in the world in an event that has been dogged by doping. Unless you are wilfully blind that ought to be evidence enough.

Ioum, if she were American what would you be saying?

It's sad isn't it how the watching public struggle to trust the performance of those we watch any more. Partly through bitter experience of having our "heroes" exposed in the past and partly through an element of xenophobia or at the very least a lack of understanding and exposure to a different culture leading to an element of suspicion.

My only thoughts on it are as geetee says about the out of competition testing is carried out by the national bodies which can only lead to conspiracy theory surely. Well documented issues with national collusion in the eastern block nations producing well juiced athletes doing "unbelievable" feats gives conspiracy theorists plenty of ammunition to state it's still going on. Secondly, one of the commentators mentioned they always know virtually nothing about the Chinese swimmers prior to a meet as the Chinese often brought different ones to every meet so they were always virtual unknowns to the outside world. Most athletes are hugely well known with past form which I guess helps to cement some trust.

I’m going to watch and applaud on face value or the whole thing becomes not worth the effort.

The world's nations struggle to trust each other to be above board in much of what goes on be it politics, business, arms dealing, environmental waste etc etc. I guess there is no reason why sport should be any different.

she didn't beat the fastest man in the world, she swam one 50m split faster than the equivalent split in the men's race.

She beat the fastest man in the world in an event that has been dogged by doping. Unless you are wilfully blind that ought to be evidence enough.

Wrong. Mens time 4:05:18, Womens Time 4:28:48. She was 23seconds slower than the mens winner. She swam the last 50m faster that's all.

he said her performance was unbelievable.....which it was, considering it was faster than the mens version!

But if you actually look at it, it wasn't in any way faster than the men's version. She was over 20 seconds slower than Ryan Lochte.

She had a different balance of splits - her first three splits (the other three strokes) were slow, and the last one was fast, whereas he was more even in his splits.

Saying that she swum better than a man for 100m but ignoring the rest of the race is weird - you might as well compare that 100m with the womens 100m race (she'd come last at that speed) and use that as evidence against her.

They were jolly fast, and faster than the final splits in the 400m freestyle, which is impressive, but then she had been swimming a whole lot slower for the other 300m than they do. If you look at Rebecca Adlington in the 400m, she did slower splits until the last 100m where she really hammered it (even more so at the last Olympics I think), and I take it no one is saying she is cheating?

It's also weird the argument that the last 100m split being faster than the others means that she was obviously cheating - surely if you were taking performance enhancing drugs, they wouldn't drug you for only one stroke, they'd work for breaststroke etc too.

She did go jolly fast, and like all the extremely fast athletes, there is a real chance she was cheating, but to say 'she did 100m faster than a man' is completely ignoring the context of that 100m. It's been picked up on by the press because it's a nice figure, but does ignore that she was actually 20s slower over 400m than the same man.

It is also worth remembering that the person who is putting out all this stuff about doping is a big US coach - and the USA swimmers, particularly the high profile male ones who've turned up hoping to take back all the gold medals, are going to be a bit annoyed about Chinese swimmers being so jolly fast.

Unless you have splits for each leg then this is still speculation.

on here:
http://www.london2012.com/swimming/event/women-400m-individual-medley/index.html

And as several of us have pointed out, she was slower on every leg other than the last. And even then she beat him only by 0.2 seconds on that last leg but was 23 seconds behind overall. So what it looks like is she put everything she had in later in the race rather than earlier.

surely if you were taking performance enhancing drugs, they wouldn't drug you for only one stroke, they'd work for breaststroke

Last comment on this as I must get on and I really don't want to come across as a pro dope theorist however...

As an ex relatively serious competitive swimmer I'd say that you dope the engine, but that is not the whole performance. Freestyle is a comparatively (note comparatively- they are all hard!) easy and not too technical stroke. Breaststroke is very technical to get right. A supercharged and doped body with mediocre technical ability would naturally show more gains in the stroke that does not reward technical competence quite as highly. I would suggest the out of balance performance in comparison to Lochtie with the least technical stroke sticking out like a sore thumb is evidence for rather than against something being "unbelievable".

Ye splits

28.85
100 m
1:02.19
5
33.34
150 m
1:37.53
3
35.34
200 m
2:11.73
3
34.20
250 m
2:50.53
3
38.80
300 m
3:29.75
2
39.22
350 m
3:59.50
1
29.75
Finish
4:28.43 WR
1
28.93

and lochte.
Split
50 m
25.62
2
25.62
100 m
55.02
1
29.40
150 m
1:26.19
1
31.17
200 m
1:56.86
1
30.67
250 m
2:31.04
1
34.18
300 m
3:06.53
1
35.49
350 m
3:36.08
1
29.55
Finish
4:05.18
1
29.10

It may be fine, but...

Out of interest have the records been reset since the banning of the suits?

you might as well compare that 100m with the womens 100m race (she'd come last at that speed) and use that as evidence against her.

Typically the final split from an IM is 18-22% slower (mens is 19-23%) then the 100m freestyle. Her split was only 10% slower.

It's also weird the argument that the last 100m split being faster than the others means that she was obviously cheating

In short, to speed up that much over a final lap means the race was swum and probably finished with a reserve. A more even paced effort would show an athlete working to their max and would produce a faster time. See [url= http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19224911 ]here[/url] for more on pacing strategies.

And lets add in to this the Chinese swimmers have failed 40 drug tests since 1990.

EDIT: and one more thing, she's improved 7 seconds in the last year. Which is phenomenal for an elite athlete.

Yeh he's American, therefore a bad loser and almost certainly evil.
[u]She beat the fastest man in the world [/u]in an event that has been dogged by doping. Unless you are wilfully blind that ought to be evidence enough.
Ioum, if she were American what would you be saying?

I've not made any accusations about the US swimmers. Like I said (with reference to Mark Foster), if they are tested clean then they deserve to be treated as clean.
If not, you lose the wonder of sport and the bitterness of politics takes over.
But from your statement above, are you that keen to throw accusations of cheating that you'll completely ignore the facts?

She has got very big hands.

Out of interest have the records been reset since the banning of the suits?

No.

[img] [/img]

Out of interest have the records been reset since the banning of the suits?
No.

Sun yang, 20, is the world champion over the men's 1500m freestyle distance and world silver medallist over 400m. He is one of only two male swimmers to break a world record in an Olympic-sized pool since 2010, when world governing body Fina outlawed so-called 'ultra-fast' 100% polyurethane swimsuits. The other is Ryan Lochte.

All we can do is [s]speculate[/s] use our lack of knowledge/experience to make our own minds up then burn her because she's foreign

Are the Chinese doping?

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/chinese-swimmers-flippers-and-blowhole-suspicious-says-top-official-2012073136323 ]official reports suggest she may not even be human.[/url]

Respect to the Chinese team, they are providing some outstanding quality in sport!

Why is it wrong to question something that is so unprecedented? I mean look at Ben Johnson in the 1988 Olympics. It is very reminiscent of that. Humans are far more homogenous than we give ourselves credit for. Winning by a little bit is the norm. Winning by a huge margin especially when that margin is waaay way way outside of your normal parameters of performance needs to be questioned as much as celebrated.

Respect to the Chinese team, they are providing some outstanding quality in sport!

Except you should see what they put their children through to get them to that level. North Korean style labour camps spring to mind.

I saw that article in the daily fail as well. Along with the inflammatory 'diplomatic row brewing' headline.

Great article [url= http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/london-day-2-quick-thoughts.html ]here[/url] on this debate.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that she is doping, but the last leg time and the pacing strategy are both suspicious. Also, the chinese have a recent history of doping in swimming.

Not just the Daily Fail

See

http://www.pekingduck.org/2005/11/allegations-of-abuse-at-chinese-sports-school/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/nov/23/young-athletes-abuse-studies-olympics

All for the Olympic spirit! YAYYYYY! The Olympics is used by certain countries as a load of ulta-nationalistic posturing bollocks, the sports involved seem to be full of doping - many of those that are not caught now seem to be caught 5 years later on when detection has caught up with the new drugs dopers are using, combined with it's disgusting levels of corporate sponsorship (to make matters more hilarious those that are involved in sweatshops) the whole ordeal is farcical nonsense.

A mate went to watch and said that watching such a live, strong performance was amazing and unbelievable. As always, we can only hope for a positive conclusion rather than pure speculation.

I don't really like all this speculation, there are few facts sadly when it comes to doping, but IMHO some of the Chinese female athletes just look physically a bit (choosing words carefully) enhanced. Some XC riders appeared on the European scene before the Beijing Olympics on a points scoring mission. I was in the changing rooms with them and was pretty shocked - perhaps it's genetics, perhaps not. And remember at the Aussie Olympics, the massive shoulders on the Chinese swimmer girls ? That tendency seems to have gone, bit obvious maybe.

look at Ben Johnson in the 1988 Olympics. It is very reminiscent of that. Humans are far more homogenous than we give ourselves credit for. Winning by a little bit is the norm. Winning by a huge margin especially when that margin is waaay way way outside of your normal parameters of performance needs to be questioned as much as celebrated.

Or look at Usain Bolt. Or Roger Bannister.
Occasionally you get a star athlete come through, she could be the Bolt of the swimming world. Especially if she wins tonight. And hopefully she'll go on and improve more as she matures, she is only 16.
4.28.43 first,
4.31.27 second,
4.34.17 fifth, our own Hannah Miley, whose coach has stated that he believes 4.25 is possible and a valid target, and will be broken.
The differences aren't that huge, the targets are similar, they're just ahead of us for the time being.
Its normal that a record breaking time redefines what is possible, and usually it inspires rivals to up their game and realise their potential. Hopefully ours will take that sporting attitude, rather than the American one of slander and sour grapes.

And do you have any evidence that she's "way outside her normal parameters"? Do you know what times she's been swimming this year in preparation?
She's knocked 5 seconds of her PB from 2010 when she was 14. Unbelievable?
Stephanie Rice knocked 6 seconds of her PB in the run up to setting her record of 4.29.45 at the 2008 Olympics.

I don't really like all this speculation, there are few facts sadly when it comes to doping, but IMHO some of the Chinese female athletes just look physically a bit (choosing words carefully) enhanced. Some XC riders appeared on the European scene before the Beijing Olympics on a points scoring mission. I was in the changing rooms with them and was pretty shocked - perhaps it's genetics, perhaps not. And remember at the Aussie Olympics, the massive shoulders on the Chinese swimmer girls ? That tendency seems to have gone, bit obvious maybe.

Two words.....Gene Doping.

Specifically.... Repoxygen which I am sure Chinese laboratories have the capability of producing. The IOC as of this moment can do nothing to detect this. Sport is a joke and as trans-humanism takes off it will become increasingly more of a joke.

Sport is a joke and as trans-humanism takes off it will become increasingly more of a joke.

Trans-humanism is not new. Its been going on ages. It's also no joke

The practice of entering animals into human events was first recorded at the 1936 Berlin Olympics, when a starting pistol caused British 200 metre runner Tom Booker to leap on his nearest competitor and start biting the man’s neck.

After closer examination, Booker was revealed to be a cougar with a stick-on moustache.

No joke at all

😆

For all you people thinking we're all bitter about other people being faster than us - it has nothing to do with her times overall. It's about the pattern of improvement over the years and the changes of speed during the race.

The guy said he had no problem with meteoric athletes in general.

And do you have any evidence that she's "way outside her normal parameters"? Do you know what times she's been swimming this year in preparation?

No, but John Leonard does.

She's knocked 5 seconds of her PB from 2010 when she was 14. Unbelievable?

Not at all. Leonard said that was perfectly reasonable. His issue was in the patterns of performance, not the overall times.

Exactly, the difference between the last leg (which implied that she had an enormous amount of energy in reserve) and the first 3 (which were at a world class pace) is the suspicious factor to me.

From my earlier link:

Next, you look at what it "typical" in the 400IM race. For men, the best swimmers typically close in 57 to 59 seconds (check splits from London). This is about 19 to 23% SLOWER than the best men finish in an isolated 100m freestyle.

For women, the TYPICAL (excluding Shiwen) final 100m freestyle takes 61 to 64 seconds. This is 18 to 22% slower than the best females swim 100m freestyle.

So the sport shows that you have a normal pattern, a typical ratio of medley freestyle to best freestyle - they SHOULD BE between 18 and 23% slower at the end of a 400m IM than in a 100m freestyle by itself.

Yet Shiwen is not. She does a 58.68 s final leg, which is only about 10% off the best 100m freestyle swimmers. The conclusion that I would draw from this is that her 100m freestyle leg is disproportionately fast not only by comparison to Lochte, but also to her peers, and to the best 100m freestyle swimmers.

Scary thought then that there is a "reserve" there that would see her get even better. It would only cause more questioning though - imagine a strong world record of 4:30 lowered by 5 or 6 seconds by a 16-year old?

Interesting times. Again, to stress the earlier point, this is an interesting discussion. And the doping aspect is important (don't shy away from the question just because it's politically incorrect - look where that got sport before), but this doesn't prove anything. So let's wait and see.

I believe that any out of the ordinary result are clearly going to raise doubts. I would say possibly and I wouldn't be surprised if she's disqualified.

For those still surprised or shocked by an "unbelievable" last leg, this is from last year, July 2011.
[u]Exactly[/u] the same pattern in beating the US world record holder at 200m IM. And quite a talking point in world swimming. (the last leg starts about 1:30 into the video below)
I guess surprise is a fair reaction if you've never seen how Ye Shiwen swims before, and there'd be no reason to unless you follow international swimming as a hobby, or perhaps as a coach to the beaten swimmer?
But if you had seen it, and a year later you faked surprise to imply cheating, then that could be seen as a very dirty PR trick.

How Fast Was Shiwen Ye’s Closing 50 in the 200 IM? A Historical Perspective
Posted on July 25, 2011, in International News
In the women’s 200 IM, China’s Shiwen Ye came from out of nowhere to win the gold medal. She went into the final turn in 5th-place, and didn’t stop until she was the first one to the final touch, which includes making up a 1.4 second gap on then-leader Ariana Kukors of the United States (who by the way is also the World Record holder).

The way that Ye swims the IM makes the race infinitely more exciting. No matter where swmimers are positioned going into the final 50, you know that Ye will be lurking. Take that rush you get when you see a great breaststroker charging the field on the third leg of an IM, and double it.

Her swimming is going to keep television producers on her toes, because in many instances she won’t even be in the camera-shot when entering the last 50. It’s also going to be great for more casual swim fans to watch, because as soon as the see Ye burst from the back of the field to the finish, and Rowdy Gaines gonig bizerk while it happens, in London, they’re going to be hooked.

This is not a new tactic to Ye. Even though she’s only 15-years old, she shows incredible patience and maturity. Moreso than any other IM’er in the world right now, she swims HER race. She doesn’t panic when she gets down by two body lengths. She gathers herself at that final wall and just takes off for the finish. It’s a very high-risk, high-reward strategy, and she executes it perfectly. Her 2:08.90 was easily a textile best, and it will be a wonder to see whether or not she can add even small improvements to her other strokes as she matures. If she does, this 200 IM World Record might suddenly not seem as untouchable as it once was.

I was curious about just HOW fast a 29.42 closing 50 split on a 200 IM really was.

To close her 200 IM-winning performance at the Beijing Olympics, Australia’s Stephanie Rice (who is also a very fast closer) split only a 30.09. Earlier that year, at Australian Olympic Trials, she closed in a 29.69, but still not all that close to Ye.
When closing her World Record performance in Rome, Ariana Kukors finished in 29.84. She is not a great closer, but to swim a 2:06.15 and still not best Ye on one of the lengths is impressive.
In 2009 at French Nationals, in polyurethane, Camille Muffat closed her European-Record 200 IM in 29.14. Amongst the 50-fastest 200 IM’s ever, that’s the only one that had a better closing tick that Ye, and hers was in rubber (which presumably allows a swimmer to conserve more energy for a strong finish). Even with that finish, Muffat’s closing time was still only 2:09.37.
In textile, it is even more incredibly rare to break 30-seconds to close. In fact, amongst major swims in major competitions, Ye is the only one I can find who has done it (and she’s done it more than once).
The next closest closing split I can find (major criteria again applies) is Katinka Hosszu’s 30.03 from the European Championships last year.
Ye’s closing 50 would be seeded ahead of 34 swimmers in the individual 50 freestyle that will take place later in the meet.
Amongst the top 10 200 freestylers in 2010, only three swimmers (Federica Pellegrini, Agnes Mutina, and Femke Heemskerk) managed to finish their 200 FREE faster than Ye’s 29.42. 200 freestylers, in general, close much faster than 200 IM’ers (partially because, as our astute readers pointed out, the split on a 200 free is counted from foot contact off of a flip-turn, rather than hand contact off of a touch turn in the IM, which makes the split that much more impressive).
What a swim!

And for anyone that missed it last night 😆
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18902398

Anyway he didn't say she was doping, he said he was worried about it. Which is a fair comment no?