[Closed] Anyone here go shooting or beating?

Unless you eat EVERYTHING you shoot

Can I sell any of it to a butcher, so other people can eat it? Maybe give it to a friend?

Do you think game shoots throw it in the bin?

You eat foxes then?

Shooting birds is for morons.

(Unless you eat EVERYTHING you shoot)

OK Tj, read that again... just see if you can spot the problem...

You eat foxes then?

Foxes got wings round your way have they? now, even I didn't think that a townie know nothing could get that confused 🙄

I've never seen a paid gun out shooting foxes, thats what the gamekeeper is for...

Any answers for the questions yet TJ? Gonna show me that you at least know the basics of shoot management?

No, do you eat foxes, Labby?

ANSWER THE QUESTION!!!

[img] [/img]

You eat foxes then?

edited

Not worth getting drawn into

Gamekeepers don't shoot pheasants Elfin, thats what the guns pay to do

Gamekeepers shoot foxes, clients shoot Pheasants, thats how it works, simple innit...

It would be a bit pointless the keeper shooting all the pheasants, wouldn't it now 😆

Still not telling me how many weeks them Pheasants spend in the woods TJ?

No idea on the old recovery rates? I mean, if it was just live target shooting, you'd expect the recovery rate to be fairly high, wouldn't you... any ideas?

You know what TJ, the thing I [b]really[/b] love about you, is the way you only decide to not get drawn into a debate when you've already been shown to be talking out of your arse 😆

No, do you eat foxes, Labby?

Gamekeepers don't shoot pheasants Elfin, thats what the guns pay to do

That is not answering the question.

DO YOU EAT FOXES?

DO YOU EAT FOXES?

Not since they stopped me using the hounds to catch them.

Zulu

None of your questions have the slightest bearing on the points I made.

But I fully expect you to make outrageous allegations up to divert attention away from the fact you gain pleasure from killing animals and do kill for fun.

Used to shoot rabbits on the local north Manchester golf courses as a kid and sell them to a local butcher or give them away. They all got eaten.

Friends family had a farm and we used to help them out keeping the rat population down, as well as shooting corvids. Stopped as I found I didn't enjoy shooting animals I couldn't eat.

Can't shoot bunnies anymore - had a pet rabbit a few years ago and got sentimental!

Still poach a good few wood pigeons every year though - absolutely delicious 🙂

Never been involved in organised game shooting though. Not really for ethical reasons (I eat farmed meat quite happily) just don't like some of those involved that I've met locally.

Do you like roast beef TJ?

someone killed that cow so you could eat it... do you think he should have cried while he did it, would that change the morality of you paying him to kill that cow so you could eat it?

Do you get pleasure from eating that cow TJ? Did that cow not die just for your personal pleasure and satisfy your (needless) lust for meat?

I'm making no allegations, you said that people would call you a know nothing townie, I'm giving you a fantastic opportunity to prove them wrong.

any idea on the recovery rates yet? is the google not strong in you tonight? fairly simple question if its true that pheasant shooting is just live target shooting...

TandemJeremy - Member

Zulu

None of your questions have the slightest bearing on the points I made.

Not worth getting drawn into

So, are you not getting drawn into it? or are you telling me that my questions have no bearing on the points you raised?

I refer you to my point above that you only ever try to pull this card when you're argument is on the ropes

would you prefer some other questions to establish whether you're a know nothing townie or not instead?

One of your points was about blood lust... do you get blood lust for a nice steak TJ? or would you not prefer a lovely nut cutlet?

what makes you choose a nice, juicy, pink steak, over a quorn sausage TJ? would that be a form of blood lust?

Nothing nutritionally that you cannot get from other foods, why do you feel the need to have a cow murdered just so you can eat your Findus crispy pancakes?

You see, thats the issue. I eat farmed meat and drink milk.
The animals that provide it often live in conditions far worse than grouse or pheasant.

I'd just feel that I was a massive hypocrite if I objected to one but not the other.

The fact that someone may get pleasure from shooting a grouse has no bearing on the morality of the situation.

Americans clearly have bigger appetites
[img] [/img]

Even their kids
[img] [/img]

The fact that someone may get pleasure from shooting a grouse has no bearing on the morality of the situation.

Imagine euthanasia one doctor does it for compassionate reasons and one does it because they like killing people..are these identical moral situations? Are the motives irrelevant ?

to divert attention away from the fact you gain pleasure from killing animals and do kill for fun.

no need to divert attention away from it, i'm quite happy to shoot game thats been living in the wild and eat it, it's an enjoyable experience a test of skill and you get to spend time in the great outdoors.

people who have a problem with that perhaps should consider suicide as it's the ultimate concession to your polluting wasteful self indulgent consumerist existence.

one doctor does it for compassionate reasons and one does it because they like killing people..are these identical moral situations? Are the motives irrelevant ?

Are the motives mutually exclusive?

is the one doing it for compassionate reasons morally precluded from taking a certain pleasure and pride in his job? Is the one who does it because he enjoys it unable to at the same time feel compassion for his patients in the process of killing them?

To the patient himself, does it make any difference (assuming they are treated identically by both, and the method of death is the same)

Would you expect a slaughterman to go home at night and cry himself to sleep, or suffer from PTSD on the basis of the horrific sights he see's day in, day out, or would it be acceptable for him to enjoy his job and gain pride from a job well done?

This guy clearly had an extreme case of the munchies
[img] [/img]

Mr smith - I have no issue with that. However not all game is the same and not all farmed animals are the same.

Many pro hunting types try to pretend its not about blood lust - especially the pathetic defence they make of the unsavoury practice of hunting with dogs which is intentionally cruel and has no utility.

Well, thats pretty much a straw man argument TJ - since hunting with dogs is illegal, innit 😉

You've repeatedly mentioned blood lust, I've asked you, is enjoying a nice steak really any different? if so, how?

Why would you eat meat if you didn't enjoy it?

Seafood anyone? All that red meat isn't good for you.
[img] [/img]

you gain pleasure from killing animals

There's a difference between pleasure and satisfaction. I don't enjoy shooting pigeons and rabbits but I do get satisfaction from doing a clean job. And once I've plucked or skinned, gutted and cooked the animal I get pleasure from eating it. I also gain satisfaction from the fact I've taken responsibility for its death because I like to eat meat. Better that than live in ignorance and denial.

Can't say I'm a huge fan of pheasant shoots since the stupid birds are not native and I suspect their rearing skews the surrounding ecosystems. But the shoots I know are social, welcoming occasions. It's the arriviste City boys you have to watch out for. The local gentry tend not to have two ha'pennys to rub together.

However not all game is the same and not all farmed animals are the same.

i agree with TJ.
😯

So which animal has a better qualty of life TJ, a wood pigeon or a dairy cow?

How long is a piece of string?

Nicest bacon I ever had came from happy pigs.

And I know meat is animals - I have seen and helped in the process of turning them from one into the other.

Sorry, that's not an answer.

If you genuinely believe that a dairy cow has a better life than reared game then you really need to do some research.

The pigeons I shoot, and the grouse and pheasants shot in the UK have all lead far more stress free lives than the animals that give you your milk.

If you object solely to the fact that some people take satisfaction from the act of killing your food then say so.

Sorry, that's not an answer.

If you genuinely believe that a dairy cow has a better life than reared game then you really need to do some research.

And I said that where?

the answer is we do not and cannot know. the range from a red deeer o a highland estate to an intensivly pen reared Pheasant is huge as it is between best practice in compassionate farming to the worst of factory farming.

the pheasants where my parents lived had short poor lives. reared intensively in pens, released to be shot, none survived the winters

So what exactly are you objecting to about game shooting then?

Not the quality of life of the animal, nor the attitude of those involved in the husbandry or consumption, so what exactly don't you like?

Just read your edit.
Please explain why you object to reared pheasant but not farmed fish, lambs or cattle.

Where did I say I objected?

I merely pointed out that for most its all about bloodlust and that shooting a pheasant that is basically a chicken that can hardly fly is hardly sporting

You need to look at different types of hunting and deal with each in context. I understand the nuance and wider effects of it. Its not all the same.

I do object to the killing of animals purely to satisfy bloodlust.

Just read your edit.
Please explain why you object to reared pheasant but not farmed fish, lambs or cattle.

Where did I say that? stop inventing things.

So it's purely the 'bloodlust' you object to, the fact that someone, somewhere along the chain enjoys the act of killing?

Yet you enjoy eating that animal? You are implicit in it's death and suffering.

Bit hypocritical, no?

Anyway, you've talked yourself into a corner, I'm off to bed. Happt to continue later.

My father in law does the whole social shooting scene (Boxing Day shoot type scenario) and has produced some well-respected, very well trained dogs. He's a janitor.

My brother in law (other side of the family) comes from a family with a large shooting estate in Dumfries and I've been to a few 'dos' at the family home. Some of the guests were regular folk, some were part of the old boys' network.

If pushed, I'd have to come down on the side of the argument which believes that management of the countryside by those who know it best (keepers, beaters, the landowners themselves) is a good thing.

Try reading "Highland Year" by L Macnally for an interesting perspective; a gamekeepers's diary with some cracking photos which gives a very real sense of a worker's kinship with the flora and fauna he's charged with managing.

1) people killing for pleasure and hypocritically denying it makes it worse
2) deliberately cruel hunting methods ie chasing animals with dogs
3) the massive hypocrisy and tissue of lies that surrounds hunting

If pushed, I'd have to come down on the side of the argument which believes that management of the countryside by those who know it best (keepers, beaters, the landowners themselves) is a good thing.

If you want badly managed land, raptors killed, monoculture deer farms. monoculture grouse farms, impoverished eroded landscapes.

The difference between land managed for hunting and land managed for conservation is huge - with afar more variety of habitat and species when land is managed with broader aims.

Fortunately in Scotland we have since devolution had the ability to have land bought for the communities that use the land and its making a huge difference

I merely pointed out that for most its all about bloodlust and that shooting a pheasant that is basically a chicken that can hardly fly is hardly sporting

Some chicken 😆

Hardly fly 🙄 You really do talk out your ring TJ... Get anywhere with those seasonal recovery rates, since they're such easy targets ❓

TJ - if the estate were mine to invite you to, you would be welcome to come and see it as soon as you were finished with the joys of Corstophine Hill.

It's a beautiful place: a mixture of deciduous / coniferous woodland, open parkland and some rough scrub, all of which adds up to an exteremely diverse habitat for more species than you could shake a Barrat house on a greenfield site at.

...impoverished eroded landscapes...

1. No one is denying that they enjoy shooting.

2. We're discussing shooting, not hunting with dogs.

3. Best left to others to decide who's the hypocrite here.
Good night!

user removed - perfectly fair and there are good landowners as well as bad of course.

Nothing more fun than shooting peasants... keeps them off the land

Get a copy of "The Field" for adverts of shoots across the county see if you can make up the numbers..

I mean Pheasants, Pheasants, best not talk about shooting peasants...

TJ - have you ever been out on a hunt of any description? Your intimations on another thread of 'if you've not got a motorbike license' could lead one to assume you only comment on things you have experience of. Other than seeing what sounded like poor pheasant husbandry in your childhood, what do you really know about the broad spectrum of hunting?

Little direct experience tootall - I personally wouldn't kill for pleasure. I believe it to be abhorrent. It wasn't from my childhood - its wa just a couple of years ago and I could show you many more examples of the same all over the place

I do however have a fair understanding of the issues which is why I am not against all blood sports as a general theme - just the more cruel and barbaric practices and those with no utility but are purely about the blood lust.

What I intensely dislike is the bullshit and hypocrisy surrounding it. Such things as fox hunts feeding foxes so as to have a healthy population to hunt then claiming its all about pest control or the myth that bird shooting is about wild birds when they (some) are cage reared and tame.

I also hate the fact that the shooting estates regularly and routinely kill raptors and badly managed estates lead to impoverished eroded landscapes

I do understand the complexities and subtleties of the hunting shooting and fishin / conservation debate and am not naive enough to call for it all to be ended now.

Edit

My family come from a farming background and I have done a little work on farms.

The family farm is still in the hands of people we know and they mocked the local hunt as "posh townies", refused to let them on to the land despite knowing where the foxes were and they kept chickens none of which the fox got

Fair enough. However, you are rather focused upon the 'green belt' hunting and haven't mentioned the wilder estates where the rural management is at the heart of what goes on throughout the year. Red deer and grouse are a different kettle of fish to penned pheasants. How about fishing? Still hunting, just with a different weapon.

I've hunted. I didn't have blood lust. Too hard to explain how I felt about the whole thing here, but respect is a word I keep coming back to when thinking of the animals.

How about fishing? Still hunting, just with a different weapon.

How about eating caught fish - the mass slaughter not only of the target species but also by-catch?

What about milk products - ever wondered what happens to all those dairy bull calves?

[i]Some[/i] shooters may take a disproportionate pleasure in the kill. Most will be satisfied about a job well done and some wholesome grub. Anyone who eats meat is clearly taking pleasure in the 'unnecessary' death of an animal. As has been said above, at least in the vast majority of cases, game birds lead a half-decent life before becoming toast/roast?

I have absolutely no idea why you would bring up fox hunting on a game shooting thread at all, unless it was to be disingenuous as your arguments against shooting didn't stack up.

Hmm, while these arguments about food and managing the countryside are all very good, has anybody actually come forward and admitted they just enjoy killing things?

I do, as kids we went out with air guns to shoot animals and as an adult i go out with a shotgun to kill animals....i eat the dead creature most of the time (or give it to my dogs)....its social and fun.

I personally wouldn't kill for pleasure. I believe it to be abhorrent

but getting someone to kill a cow for you, so that you can gain pleasure from eating it, is somehow morally superior?

your comment about posh townies really ties it down TJ - your real problem with fieldsports is nothing to do with morality, its the eternal class warrior chip on your shoulder thats weighing you down, you're just too damn self obsessed to admit it!

i go out with a shotgun to kill animals....i eat the dead creature most of the time (or give it to my dogs)....its social and [b]fun[/b].

What's the difference between someone fox hunting or shooting birds with no intention of eating them, and a kid shooting cats and birds with a catapult or airgun?

Or someone getting pissed up and having fights in pubs etc?

What's the difference between someone fox hunting or shooting birds with no intention of eating them, and a kid shooting cats and birds with a catapult or airgun?

As this thread clearly demonstrates: none.

What's the difference between someone fox hunting or shooting birds with no intention of eating them, and a kid shooting cats and birds with a catapult or airgun?

And, by the same balance, whats the difference between having an animal killed just so you can gain pleasure from eating it, and gaining pleasure from the kill itself?

I've yet to see any of the "anti's" tackle this simple question... wonder why?

and gaining pleasure from the kill itself?

This one means you have psychopathic tendencies.

thte chances of anyone answering that [ any question to your satisfaction is not high]

Most folk - ie the doctor example [ though you did raise some valid points to be fair- I doubt the animal cares much whether you kill it for fun or food for example as it will still be dead]
- think the motivation for your killing is a factor in evaluating it on moral grounds
We need to eat to live [ so why not enjoy this] we dont need to kill for fun.
Most folk are probably a little concerned when someone says they enjoy killing – I am not saying you are all psychopaths but you are on the way 😉

ther eis a smell of hypocrisy in meat teateres objecting and personally I have mor erespect fro meat eaters who kill theior own food thna the many meat teaters who would stop eating meat if they actually had to kill it themselves...I think the point there is most people knwo killig things is bad and doing it for fun is worse than doing it to eat. May be a fair poin tto say there is still some hypocrisy in that as the thing killed proably cares less about your motivation than we do.

Can anyone translate the above please? ^ 😆

whats the difference between having an animal killed just so you can gain pleasure from eating it, and gaining pleasure from the kill itself?

Ineretesting question, although I'd say the 'pleasure' gained from eating is more to do with the instinctive need to survive, whereas the notion of 'pleasure' from killing is a bit ambiguous; surely there's a long way between fulfilling some sick psychopathic tendencies and the satisfaction from being the master of the means of providing yourself with food...

What's the difference between killing an animal for pleasure, and killing a Human Being for pleasure?

What's the difference between killing an animal for pleasure, and killing a Human Being for pleasure?

None, as this thread clearly demonstrates. 😉

We need to eat to live [ so why not enjoy this]

But we really don't need to eat [b]meat[/b] to live, this is a clear scientific fact, millins survive without doing so, and there's reasonable evidence that if anything, they're healthier for doing so.

the 'pleasure' gained from eating is more to do with the instinctive need to survive,

We eat meat be cause we gain enjoyment from it, there's nothing wrng with that, for most of us it is societal normality... but please, don't decieve yourself that there is any need to do so, getting someone to kill an animal so you can eat it is no different from killing it yourself, and the only motivation is pleasure, there is no need for it to be killed. Human beings can survive perfectly well without the need for meat (I'll make an exception to this if you're an Eskimo)

Hell, if we really wanted to expand it, the only morally sustainable meat is of animals that compete with us for food resource - deer, pigeons, rats, mice, rabbits - they're all wild animals, and for us to continue surviving by eating vegetables, you could argue that we need to keep their populations in check to ensure our own survival... animal reared for meat in agricultural conditions, totally morally unsupportable, their entire existence is only there so we can kill them, and eat them (which we don't need to do) they don't get even the slightest chance of survival.

back to pheasants, of 1000 birds released, an estate can realistically expect to recover around a third - the rest either die of predation or natuural wastage, or survive and go feral. thats a lot better odds than the turkeys at Bernard Matthews.

But we really don't need to eat meat to live, this is a clear scientific fact

Maybe we in the Developed World in the Twenty-first Century we don't, but this is due to modern intensive farming methods and efficient production of suitable foodstuffs. Which have their not inconsiderable impact on the greater environment.

But you digress. The question you are being asked is about 'pleasure' gained from killing...

and the question I'm asking you is about the pleasure gained from eating meat!

Maybe we in the Developed World in the Twenty-first Century we don't, but this is due to modern intensive farming methods and efficient production of suitable foodstuffs

I think you'll find that vegetarianism is far more widespread, with a far greater history than the 21st C developed world... India being a fairly reasonable example!

The Hindu's and Jaians seem to have done OK out of it for the last couple of millenia... how's about that Ghandi bloke? I don't think you can really point the reliance on 21st century intensive farming finger at him, can you?

My friend rears pheasants (lol), here's a young one.
[url= http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2433/3563940765_b8b1443cf2.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2433/3563940765_b8b1443cf2.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/milkiekula/3563940765/ ]Baby Pheasants[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/milkiekula/ ]MilkieKula[/url], on Flickr

My mother takes the dog beating during the shooting season, the dog is pretty good at it too, should be after 4 years of doing it.
[url= http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/3358987031_c4631965ec.jp g" target="_blank">http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3632/3358987031_c4631965ec.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/milkiekula/3358987031/ ]Wet Cloud[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/milkiekula/ ]MilkieKula[/url], on Flickr

I keep meaning to go along, but I have to wait for an invite (once a year), people pay extremely big money to shoot pheasants (£1K+ per person and thats cheap).

But you digress. The question you are being asked is about 'pleasure' gained from killing...

Actually, and far from the first time, you're entirely wrong. The question initially asked in this thread by the OP was:

Helios - Member

That pheasant thread got me wondering - does anyone on here go shooting regularly - and how did you get into it?

I have no real interest in spending every weekend at it. I want to shoot a few things, [u]taken them home and cook them every once in a while[/u]. Is there anyway you can get into it but not devote half your life to it?
Posted 21 hours ago # Report-Post

HTH

Actually, and far from the first time, you're entirely wrong. The question initially asked in this thread by the OP was:

That's not the question I was referring to though.

HTH. 😉

I think you'll find that vegetarianism is far more widespread, with a far greater history than the 21st C developed world... India being a fairly reasonable example!

Yes, I am well aware of that, however there is still the need for a nutritious source of protein in other areas where vegetables aren't too abundant. As you yourself admitted to re Eskimos.

Maybe we in the Developed World in the Twenty-first Century we don't, but this is due to modern intensive farming methods and efficient production of suitable foodstuffs.

Wot BBSB said.

As you yourself admitted to re Eskimos.

Who, of course, make up the vast majority of the 7 bn people on this planet 🙄

Ok Elfin, so I reckon we're both agreed there then.

For the fifty thousand or so eskimo's (very few of whom will still be living a traditional lifestyle), a few siberians and some laplanders, living inside the arctic circle, maybe a small number of high altitude or desert communities, and a couple of other extreme comminities living on the very margins of survival in the wilderness, then meat eating is a necessity, and morally acceptable

For most of the the rest of the worlds population, and without doubt all those living in what we'd term "modern, first world communities" meat eating is an unneccesary luxury, only continued because we've built up a society around it, and we have decided to accept morally that its ok to kill animals, without any real need, because we like eating them, because its fun, we derive pleasure from it - no other justification really.

We raise animals in perpetual twilight, outside their natural conditions, in stinking concrete sheds, maxing out their potential with drugs and hormones - animals that are artificially fed on high calorie diets so they fatten up more quickly, going from birth to table in half the time that we once thought achievable, through modern intensive farming methods that produce shite tasting cheap meat, we cram them into cages, slaughter them industrially in concrete and steel factories of death. We slit their throats and let them bleed to death (often without any form of stunning on religious grounds)then grind up the bits we don't need, and feed them to the others.

And you're claiming the moral high ground over someone who enjoys killing them in the open air, in the wild, with a sporting chance?

Laughable!

That's not the question I was referring to though.

Thank God for that - for a second we were at risk of getting back the point of the thread. And that would never do.

We raise animals in perpetual twilight, outside their natural conditions, in stinking concrete sheds, maxing out their potential with drugs and hormones - animals that are artificially fed on high calorie diets so they fatten up more quickly, going from birth to table in half the time that we once thought achievable, through modern intensive farming methods that produce shite tasting cheap meat, we cram them into cages, slaughter them industrially in concrete and steel factories of death. We slit their throats and let them bleed to death (often without any form of stunning on religious grounds)then grind up the bits we don't need, and feed them to the others.

yes, but no rich people shoot them, so that's ok

I used to live on a farm which organised these corporate shooting days, I volunteered to do some beating when they were short one Saturday morning, turned up in my bright red motocross jacket and was given a few funny looks by the rest dressed in Barbour green, there was no way I was going to blend into the scenery with those idiots waving shotguns in my general direction. 🙂

Actually meat eating is the resource intensive, inefficient option, which is why we subject many animals such as chickens and pigs to unimaginable cruelty before killing them for the sheer pleasure of a hormone stuffed bacon roll or tasteless kfc-burger. Still, as long as that stays hidden out of sight, it's unlikely to affect your uninformed opinions, is it?

Oh go untwist yer knickers always trying to have a pop in't yer? You need to chill out and calm down a bit.

If rearing animals was as 'inefficient' as you claim, why have Humans bin rearing and eating them for millions of years then? Why have Human migration patterns mirrored those of animals? What about people who have moved from place to place, and take animals with them as a source of food? And people don't just use animals for food; go and have a look in museums and stuff at things like skins, furs, tools made from bones etc.

Plant crops are also subject to failure from time to time. Animal meat can be dried and preserved and last for ages.

I'm not arguing against the fact that we basically now 'chose' to eat meat, but that hazzunt historically bin the case for [b]all[/b] people globally.

Maybe we do eat meat more for pleasure than need. But I like a variety of foodstuffs.

Oh, and try to imagine a diet than consisted solely of vegetables native to the British Isles (and indeed many regions). Then consider how many vegetables we eat that are imported, and the environmental impact of that process.

And before you start getting all wound up and sand-panty, try to have a think about things all the way through and don't be so rude please.

And you're claiming the moral high ground over someone who enjoys killing them in the open air, in the wild, with a sporting chance?

'[b]Sporting[/b] chance'. 😕

What I object to is people killing purely for pleasure, for bloodlust. Not for food.

But I've said this several times now and if people don't want to consider what I've actually said and want to imagine their own version instead then I can't help that I'm afraid.

Oh and I'm currently eating a banana from Colombia if anyone's inertested...

I'm not arguing against the fact that we basically now 'chose' to eat meat, but that hazzunt historically bin the case for all people globally.

OK, so, we agree.

Maybe we do eat meat more for pleasure than need. But I [b]like[/b] a variety of foodstuffs.

and I [b]like[/b] killing animals, I also [b]like[/b] all the stuff that goes with that, being part of the complete cycle, the social scene, the history and culture of the sport.

The problem is, that you seem to think that, despite the fact that they both involve killing an animal purely for pleasure, your [b]like[/b] is somehow morally more acceptable than my [b]like[/b]

What I object to is people killing purely for pleasure

Which, as I keep saying, and as you seem to accept above, is exactly what you're doing every time you eat meat.

Sporting chance

well, as I stated in the example of pheasants, you release 1000, you get about 300 back by the end of season - thats average actual surveyed verifiable figures. So, if you have maybe fifteen days shooting, and get back a third of your pheasants total in that time, then that "sporting chance" is about 3:1 that they won't be shot.

Thats a lot better odds of survival than they get at my local chicken farm...

On the whole killing for pleasure, all the people sat in front of their xboxes and playstations playing COD, Battlefield etc. appear to be spending hours and hours deriving pleasure from the concept of killing. Are they any morally different?

Oh go untwist yer knickers always trying to have a pop in't yer? You need to chill out and calm down a bit.

Care to produce some data on the "efficiency" of meat production or is it just you think it is so it is?

zokes - if you haven't given up on this - where are you?
there is shooting round where I am, and the cars aren't all giant 4*4's so I'm guessing it's neither hugely expensive or a serious commitment.
I can find out who runs the shoots and how muach and pass this back to you (not my thing, so no interest). Area is Perthshire

OK, so, we agree.

Bizarrely. 😆

Which, as I keep saying, and as you seem to accept above, is exactly what you're doing every time you eat meat.

I disagree. I eat meat because it's a valuable source of nutrition. Yes I do like meat, but I also like many vegetables too. A vegetable is a living thing, so you can apply your logic to a courgette or a potato or a tomato....

HANG ON A TOMATO IS A FRUIT!!!!! 😯

You need to try being right sometime

Actually, I've bin thinking about trying to be [i]wrong[/i], now and then.

Because that is an experience which is alien to me. 😐

Difference is Elfin - you're not alleging that I'm cruel and immoral for pulling carrots out the ground by their hair and chopping their feet off 😆

As for them sprouts, well, bastards the lot of them, I hope hey rot in hell!