[Closed] Anyone here go shooting or beating?

Zulu

None of your questions have the slightest bearing on the points I made.

But I fully expect you to make outrageous allegations up to divert attention away from the fact you gain pleasure from killing animals and do kill for fun.

Used to shoot rabbits on the local north Manchester golf courses as a kid and sell them to a local butcher or give them away. They all got eaten.

Friends family had a farm and we used to help them out keeping the rat population down, as well as shooting corvids. Stopped as I found I didn't enjoy shooting animals I couldn't eat.

Can't shoot bunnies anymore - had a pet rabbit a few years ago and got sentimental!

Still poach a good few wood pigeons every year though - absolutely delicious 🙂

Never been involved in organised game shooting though. Not really for ethical reasons (I eat farmed meat quite happily) just don't like some of those involved that I've met locally.

Do you like roast beef TJ?

someone killed that cow so you could eat it... do you think he should have cried while he did it, would that change the morality of you paying him to kill that cow so you could eat it?

Do you get pleasure from eating that cow TJ? Did that cow not die just for your personal pleasure and satisfy your (needless) lust for meat?

I'm making no allegations, you said that people would call you a know nothing townie, I'm giving you a fantastic opportunity to prove them wrong.

any idea on the recovery rates yet? is the google not strong in you tonight? fairly simple question if its true that pheasant shooting is just live target shooting...

TandemJeremy - Member

Zulu

None of your questions have the slightest bearing on the points I made.

Not worth getting drawn into

So, are you not getting drawn into it? or are you telling me that my questions have no bearing on the points you raised?

I refer you to my point above that you only ever try to pull this card when you're argument is on the ropes

would you prefer some other questions to establish whether you're a know nothing townie or not instead?

One of your points was about blood lust... do you get blood lust for a nice steak TJ? or would you not prefer a lovely nut cutlet?

what makes you choose a nice, juicy, pink steak, over a quorn sausage TJ? would that be a form of blood lust?

Nothing nutritionally that you cannot get from other foods, why do you feel the need to have a cow murdered just so you can eat your Findus crispy pancakes?

You see, thats the issue. I eat farmed meat and drink milk.
The animals that provide it often live in conditions far worse than grouse or pheasant.

I'd just feel that I was a massive hypocrite if I objected to one but not the other.

The fact that someone may get pleasure from shooting a grouse has no bearing on the morality of the situation.

Americans clearly have bigger appetites
[img] [/img]

Even their kids
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The fact that someone may get pleasure from shooting a grouse has no bearing on the morality of the situation.

Imagine euthanasia one doctor does it for compassionate reasons and one does it because they like killing people..are these identical moral situations? Are the motives irrelevant ?

to divert attention away from the fact you gain pleasure from killing animals and do kill for fun.

no need to divert attention away from it, i'm quite happy to shoot game thats been living in the wild and eat it, it's an enjoyable experience a test of skill and you get to spend time in the great outdoors.

people who have a problem with that perhaps should consider suicide as it's the ultimate concession to your polluting wasteful self indulgent consumerist existence.

one doctor does it for compassionate reasons and one does it because they like killing people..are these identical moral situations? Are the motives irrelevant ?

Are the motives mutually exclusive?

is the one doing it for compassionate reasons morally precluded from taking a certain pleasure and pride in his job? Is the one who does it because he enjoys it unable to at the same time feel compassion for his patients in the process of killing them?

To the patient himself, does it make any difference (assuming they are treated identically by both, and the method of death is the same)

Would you expect a slaughterman to go home at night and cry himself to sleep, or suffer from PTSD on the basis of the horrific sights he see's day in, day out, or would it be acceptable for him to enjoy his job and gain pride from a job well done?

This guy clearly had an extreme case of the munchies
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Mr smith - I have no issue with that. However not all game is the same and not all farmed animals are the same.

Many pro hunting types try to pretend its not about blood lust - especially the pathetic defence they make of the unsavoury practice of hunting with dogs which is intentionally cruel and has no utility.

Well, thats pretty much a straw man argument TJ - since hunting with dogs is illegal, innit 😉

You've repeatedly mentioned blood lust, I've asked you, is enjoying a nice steak really any different? if so, how?

Why would you eat meat if you didn't enjoy it?

Seafood anyone? All that red meat isn't good for you.
[img] [/img]

you gain pleasure from killing animals

There's a difference between pleasure and satisfaction. I don't enjoy shooting pigeons and rabbits but I do get satisfaction from doing a clean job. And once I've plucked or skinned, gutted and cooked the animal I get pleasure from eating it. I also gain satisfaction from the fact I've taken responsibility for its death because I like to eat meat. Better that than live in ignorance and denial.

Can't say I'm a huge fan of pheasant shoots since the stupid birds are not native and I suspect their rearing skews the surrounding ecosystems. But the shoots I know are social, welcoming occasions. It's the arriviste City boys you have to watch out for. The local gentry tend not to have two ha'pennys to rub together.

However not all game is the same and not all farmed animals are the same.

i agree with TJ.
😯

So which animal has a better qualty of life TJ, a wood pigeon or a dairy cow?

How long is a piece of string?

Nicest bacon I ever had came from happy pigs.

And I know meat is animals - I have seen and helped in the process of turning them from one into the other.

Sorry, that's not an answer.

If you genuinely believe that a dairy cow has a better life than reared game then you really need to do some research.

The pigeons I shoot, and the grouse and pheasants shot in the UK have all lead far more stress free lives than the animals that give you your milk.

If you object solely to the fact that some people take satisfaction from the act of killing your food then say so.

Sorry, that's not an answer.

If you genuinely believe that a dairy cow has a better life than reared game then you really need to do some research.

And I said that where?

the answer is we do not and cannot know. the range from a red deeer o a highland estate to an intensivly pen reared Pheasant is huge as it is between best practice in compassionate farming to the worst of factory farming.

the pheasants where my parents lived had short poor lives. reared intensively in pens, released to be shot, none survived the winters

So what exactly are you objecting to about game shooting then?

Not the quality of life of the animal, nor the attitude of those involved in the husbandry or consumption, so what exactly don't you like?

Just read your edit.
Please explain why you object to reared pheasant but not farmed fish, lambs or cattle.

Where did I say I objected?

I merely pointed out that for most its all about bloodlust and that shooting a pheasant that is basically a chicken that can hardly fly is hardly sporting

You need to look at different types of hunting and deal with each in context. I understand the nuance and wider effects of it. Its not all the same.

I do object to the killing of animals purely to satisfy bloodlust.

Just read your edit.
Please explain why you object to reared pheasant but not farmed fish, lambs or cattle.

Where did I say that? stop inventing things.

So it's purely the 'bloodlust' you object to, the fact that someone, somewhere along the chain enjoys the act of killing?

Yet you enjoy eating that animal? You are implicit in it's death and suffering.

Bit hypocritical, no?

Anyway, you've talked yourself into a corner, I'm off to bed. Happt to continue later.

My father in law does the whole social shooting scene (Boxing Day shoot type scenario) and has produced some well-respected, very well trained dogs. He's a janitor.

My brother in law (other side of the family) comes from a family with a large shooting estate in Dumfries and I've been to a few 'dos' at the family home. Some of the guests were regular folk, some were part of the old boys' network.

If pushed, I'd have to come down on the side of the argument which believes that management of the countryside by those who know it best (keepers, beaters, the landowners themselves) is a good thing.

Try reading "Highland Year" by L Macnally for an interesting perspective; a gamekeepers's diary with some cracking photos which gives a very real sense of a worker's kinship with the flora and fauna he's charged with managing.

1) people killing for pleasure and hypocritically denying it makes it worse
2) deliberately cruel hunting methods ie chasing animals with dogs
3) the massive hypocrisy and tissue of lies that surrounds hunting

If pushed, I'd have to come down on the side of the argument which believes that management of the countryside by those who know it best (keepers, beaters, the landowners themselves) is a good thing.

If you want badly managed land, raptors killed, monoculture deer farms. monoculture grouse farms, impoverished eroded landscapes.

The difference between land managed for hunting and land managed for conservation is huge - with afar more variety of habitat and species when land is managed with broader aims.

Fortunately in Scotland we have since devolution had the ability to have land bought for the communities that use the land and its making a huge difference

I merely pointed out that for most its all about bloodlust and that shooting a pheasant that is basically a chicken that can hardly fly is hardly sporting

Some chicken 😆

Hardly fly 🙄 You really do talk out your ring TJ... Get anywhere with those seasonal recovery rates, since they're such easy targets ❓

TJ - if the estate were mine to invite you to, you would be welcome to come and see it as soon as you were finished with the joys of Corstophine Hill.

It's a beautiful place: a mixture of deciduous / coniferous woodland, open parkland and some rough scrub, all of which adds up to an exteremely diverse habitat for more species than you could shake a Barrat house on a greenfield site at.

...impoverished eroded landscapes...

1. No one is denying that they enjoy shooting.

2. We're discussing shooting, not hunting with dogs.

3. Best left to others to decide who's the hypocrite here.
Good night!

user removed - perfectly fair and there are good landowners as well as bad of course.

Nothing more fun than shooting peasants... keeps them off the land

Get a copy of "The Field" for adverts of shoots across the county see if you can make up the numbers..

I mean Pheasants, Pheasants, best not talk about shooting peasants...

TJ - have you ever been out on a hunt of any description? Your intimations on another thread of 'if you've not got a motorbike license' could lead one to assume you only comment on things you have experience of. Other than seeing what sounded like poor pheasant husbandry in your childhood, what do you really know about the broad spectrum of hunting?

Little direct experience tootall - I personally wouldn't kill for pleasure. I believe it to be abhorrent. It wasn't from my childhood - its wa just a couple of years ago and I could show you many more examples of the same all over the place

I do however have a fair understanding of the issues which is why I am not against all blood sports as a general theme - just the more cruel and barbaric practices and those with no utility but are purely about the blood lust.

What I intensely dislike is the bullshit and hypocrisy surrounding it. Such things as fox hunts feeding foxes so as to have a healthy population to hunt then claiming its all about pest control or the myth that bird shooting is about wild birds when they (some) are cage reared and tame.

I also hate the fact that the shooting estates regularly and routinely kill raptors and badly managed estates lead to impoverished eroded landscapes

I do understand the complexities and subtleties of the hunting shooting and fishin / conservation debate and am not naive enough to call for it all to be ended now.

Edit

My family come from a farming background and I have done a little work on farms.

The family farm is still in the hands of people we know and they mocked the local hunt as "posh townies", refused to let them on to the land despite knowing where the foxes were and they kept chickens none of which the fox got

Fair enough. However, you are rather focused upon the 'green belt' hunting and haven't mentioned the wilder estates where the rural management is at the heart of what goes on throughout the year. Red deer and grouse are a different kettle of fish to penned pheasants. How about fishing? Still hunting, just with a different weapon.

I've hunted. I didn't have blood lust. Too hard to explain how I felt about the whole thing here, but respect is a word I keep coming back to when thinking of the animals.

How about fishing? Still hunting, just with a different weapon.

How about eating caught fish - the mass slaughter not only of the target species but also by-catch?

What about milk products - ever wondered what happens to all those dairy bull calves?

[i]Some[/i] shooters may take a disproportionate pleasure in the kill. Most will be satisfied about a job well done and some wholesome grub. Anyone who eats meat is clearly taking pleasure in the 'unnecessary' death of an animal. As has been said above, at least in the vast majority of cases, game birds lead a half-decent life before becoming toast/roast?

I have absolutely no idea why you would bring up fox hunting on a game shooting thread at all, unless it was to be disingenuous as your arguments against shooting didn't stack up.

Hmm, while these arguments about food and managing the countryside are all very good, has anybody actually come forward and admitted they just enjoy killing things?

I do, as kids we went out with air guns to shoot animals and as an adult i go out with a shotgun to kill animals....i eat the dead creature most of the time (or give it to my dogs)....its social and fun.

I personally wouldn't kill for pleasure. I believe it to be abhorrent

but getting someone to kill a cow for you, so that you can gain pleasure from eating it, is somehow morally superior?

your comment about posh townies really ties it down TJ - your real problem with fieldsports is nothing to do with morality, its the eternal class warrior chip on your shoulder thats weighing you down, you're just too damn self obsessed to admit it!

i go out with a shotgun to kill animals....i eat the dead creature most of the time (or give it to my dogs)....its social and [b]fun[/b].

What's the difference between someone fox hunting or shooting birds with no intention of eating them, and a kid shooting cats and birds with a catapult or airgun?

Or someone getting pissed up and having fights in pubs etc?

What's the difference between someone fox hunting or shooting birds with no intention of eating them, and a kid shooting cats and birds with a catapult or airgun?

As this thread clearly demonstrates: none.

What's the difference between someone fox hunting or shooting birds with no intention of eating them, and a kid shooting cats and birds with a catapult or airgun?

And, by the same balance, whats the difference between having an animal killed just so you can gain pleasure from eating it, and gaining pleasure from the kill itself?

I've yet to see any of the "anti's" tackle this simple question... wonder why?