[Closed] Another sad story,let down by the system.

A tragic but isolated instance, I can't see how it's symptomatic or indicative of any wider problem. Exactly what point are you trying to make?

[i]a 999 call costs nothing[/i]

This is correct, but only if you use a definition of "cost" which deliberately excludes all the actual cost elements. 😉

Johnners +1.

By phoning 999 you access emergency help,by trained staff,not staff who think a meeting is more important than a childs illness.

As for the cost bit, a neighbours appartment caught fire afew years ago,another neighbour knocked my door to tell me the appartment was on fire,when i said have you rang the Fire Brigade she said no, just incase they charge me for coming out, and there seem to be a lot of peole who think the same.

I think those people are more commonly known as idiots.

Can't believe what I am hearing are people really this naive & stupid FFS, if a child is unwell and struggling for breath you call 999 without question, these Teachers deserve all they get, bloody incompetent idiots.

Hope they get replaced with good teachers with a sense of morals and duty of care.

I have one simple rule that I share with all people responsible for looking after children. No paramedic will ever resent being called to a child who turns out to be fine. I would rather say find a child with over protective parents and a little cough any time than a child with a severe chest infection that the parents assumed would go away. A tragic story, and a waste of a young life, sadly, asthma is so common people forget that it is a killer.

My last DofE exped session ends with:

Look after each other, talk to each other and if in doubt do something.

A bit trite but.......

very sad, but the fault of a bad/ stupid teacher
it's hardly endemic

Johnners +2.

it's hardly endemic

Have you guys never come across the safety pyramid concept. In H & S terms for every death there will be X serious accidents, Y minor accidents and Z near misses where the bear misses represent the base of the pyramid. The point being an actual death is pretty rare, less rare will be kids suffering serious injury or illness because of teacher neglect, even more will suffer some form of harm and a relatively significant number will be lucky and get away with it despite a teacher taking no action.

Isolated outcome, yes, isolated example of teacher behaviour, very unlikely. Those teachers involved should prosecuted, they were in a position of responsibility and failed to act reasonably, result dead kid. Other teachers should consider themselves lucky it wasn't them and look at their own behaviour.

Of course there will also be many, many responsible teachers out there who this wouldn't have happened to but based on the pyramid principle there will be many others it could've happened to.

So people are f*cking up all the time, but it usually has no consequences? I should obviously feel more outrage than I do about this. 🙂

Presumably similar applies to parental neglect and stupidity?

How many more kids will have to die......

You obviously feel very strongly about this project, so explain how many kids have died of asthma attacks in schools in recent years. Or maybe you could just give the total number of children who have died at school ?

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Other teachers should consider themselves lucky it wasn't them and look at their own behaviour.

Lucky about what ? That it wasn't them that was guilty of negligence ? What a ridiculous comment.

Johnners +3.

Uncaring carers, paedophile priests, stupid teachers, bent coppers, murderous doctors and nurses; how many professions don't have the odd black sheep? You know how much first aid training there is in a PGCE? None.

Tragic case.

re calling 999, I would rather turn out to 10 false alarms than 1 fire.

I'm surprised there isn't a PGCE in First Aid...seems to be one in every other subject. ****in uncaring irresponsible ****less teachers. This country is going to the dogs.

WE do not know the whole story here. Certainly condemning all teachers and "the system" is simply wrong.

Its a tragedy but without knowing the whole story who are we to judge?

No, no, no, it's not wrong. Condemn. Condemn.

who are we to judge?

Well actually it was the inquest jury which did the judging TJ.

[i]An inquest jury ruled that Sam died of "died of natural causes, significantly contributed to by neglect, both individually and on a systemic level".[/i]

There is little doubt that this is a tragic case which could, and should have, been avoided.

What [i]is[/i] in doubt for me, is that this is a reoccurring problem.

I also doubt stumpyjon's "safety pyramid concept" which presumably suggests that kids are [i]almost[/i] dying in schools on a regular basis.

I quite liked the pyramid concept. But it's about perspective I think.
After all, waiting to cross the road this morning there was any number of near misses, but I was on the pavement and the cars were on the road.

And thinking about it, if we live with a 'what might have happened' approach then we'd never get anything done. That would be the base of the pyramid wouldn't it?

Fair enough - I hadn't seen that Ernie.

A tragic case. A teacher really REALLY cocked up and should and will probably lose her job. Quite right too..
But wait! She made a mistake and a child died! That's terrible! She should be sacked! Then prosecuted! A child died! She must hang for that! But wait! (again) 5 have been suspended.They must surely all be teachers too.. They should all be sa..prosec....hanged! All of them! ALL of them! ALL TEACHERS! They are monsters! Our children are not safe! I'd be happy to see the school burn for this! With all those monsters inside! Who's with me? WHO'S WITH ME? You are either with me or against me! In which case get in the f.....ing school with the rest of those monsters!

Where's my pitchfork godammit!

Just to fan the fire a little, did you read the article in the paper today about the teachers who left a child stuck up a tree for over half an hour because of health and saftey rules and then called the police on the good samaritan who helped the little bugger down.

http://www.****/news/article-1260253/Teachers-leave-boy-5-tree-health-safety.html

[img] [/img]

Where's my pitchfork godammit!

Grimy,

It said the kid was 20 ft up a tree. Stirikes me that maybe he was being a bit naughty. I'd have left him there and called the parents.

I read it as 6ft up a 20ft tree, and yes I would be tempted to leave the little bugger up there too! lol, but thats for parents to decide not a teacher charged with their well being. I certainly wouldnt call the police on the person who helped them down either unless I was a perticually spitefull c**t.

Well, hopefully he's been excluded now, so it shouldn't happen again for a few days. That will give his parents an opportunity to try and sort his behaviour out while they are off work looking after him, while the teachers will be able to get on with their actual jobs of teaching the kids who aren't disruptive.

Having read/heard a bit more on this the perents of the boy were most disapointed by the school not changing any of there policies/procedures for 2 years following his death.

Owen, I only know what I've heard via the normal news services but I can think of one possible interpretation of "the school not changing any policies" which is that there was nothing wrong with the policy, but that the policy wasn't followed.

The trouble is that in so many of these kinds of stories, the media would rather print a story about the whole system in crisis than one about a teacher making an error, because it sounds more dramatic.

What's the current H&S thoughts on Rugby at school? A few broken necks seemed to be just considered general attrition when I went.

Everyone fs up every day, its just that sometimes you f up a little bit more than usual.

One teacher having a bad day doesnt mean the department/school/education system/country is full of child murderers?

I'd be fairly confident saying that the teacher is more cut up than most about this whole thing.

I really wouldn't trust the mail on stories like that at all. they have been caught out before will printing stories people have fabricated or totally distorting them

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/7513347/Woman-reported-to-police-after-coming-to-aid-of-boy-left-in-tree.html ]Telegraph take on boy in tree story[/url]

Rather different

Wiltshire council said the boy had climbed down on his own accord and was on the path when Miss Barrett approached him. It said its policy was not to intervene when children ventured into trees for fear of distracting them and causing a fall.

A spokesman said: “If he (the boy) or any other child was in any danger, or was unable to get down from the tree, he would have been assisted either by a teacher or the fire brigade, depending on the circumstances.

“The only danger as far as the school was concerned was that a stranger came onto the premises and talked to the child, who was being observed.”

A council statement added: “The safety of our pupils is our priority and we would like to make it clear that this child was being observed at all times during this very short incident.

“Like other schools whose premises include wooded areas, our policy when a child climbs a tree, is for staff to observe the situation from a distance so the child does not get distracted and fall.

“This also ensures that children are not ‘rewarded’ with attention for inappropriate behaviour.”

The council said the child’s mother was “in agreement with and fully supportive of our actions both prior to the incident and since.”

It added: "To protect children, we cannot assume that people who enter the school grounds without permission have innocent intentions and must act accordingly.”

johnners - Member
A tragic but isolated instance, I can't see how it's symptomatic or indicative of any wider problem. Exactly what point are you trying to make?

Have you forgot Shipman, all the social workers who failed,and all the kids who where killed, staffordshire general hospital, stoke mandervile hospital,and many more, some covered up quite well,one thing is prevelant in all the cases people died, and the ones that where paid to stop them dieing failed.

A few weeks ago there was the case of a head teacher taking the kids on the roof of his school and one of the kids fell through a skylight and was killed, the head was prosecuted and awaits sentance.

Why has it taken so long to suspend the staff, who failed,the parents must be gutted the system let them down.

Mark, you seem to be loosing the plot.............

So Shipman who deliberately killed many old people is the same system as a teacher who made a serious mistake that led to a kids death.

You do live in a weird world project. It must be very bleak

True shipman killed his customers, but people who realised what was happenening kept quiet,and made serious mistakes until brought to the attention of the authorities by a relative.

Yet more idiots promoted beyond their ability - that would be the idiot that wrote the 'rules' and the idiots that follow them.

I blame it on the smoking of dope in Universities.

Some harsh views on here. Sometimes I can't beleive how cruel people can be with their comments. My thoughts are with the family who have lost a young son and I also feel desperately sorry for the Teachers at the school. Wheres compassion these days people? Nobody wanted this to happen. It could of been avoided but unfortunately it was a tragic accident. Very sad.

Sorry Bruneep...re calling 999, I would rather turn out to 10 false alarms than 1 fire.

Is that the number of callouts you get in a year ? 😉

Have you forgot Shipman, all the social workers who failed,and all the kids who where killed, staffordshire general hospital, stoke mandervile hospital,and many more, some covered up quite well,one thing is prevelant in all the cases people died, and the ones that where paid to stop them dieing failed.

You've cast your net wide there, and I don't see what any of those has to do with the case of the boy with asthma.

You seem to be implying some sort of conspiracy or cover-up, but incidents like the neglect of Sam are rare, and so make the news, whereas (for example) 130 or so children are killed by cars in a year and there are few high profile stories about it. Will you post a link every time you chance upon one of them?

I also doubt stumpyjon's "safety pyramid concept" which presumably suggests that kids are almost dying in schools on a regular basis.

Not my pyramid, it's quite widely used in H & S circles. The idea is that you actually take the near misses seriously, investigate them, remove or reduce the likelyhood of a near miss and ultimately reduce the number of serious or fatal accidents. Same applies in this case which a lot of people are missing. If you challenge the poor behaviour from teachers across the board when it's found you may actually prevent a death. Doing nothing until some poor kid dies is a bit like bolting the stable door after you've shot the horse. Completely pointless because it's going to happen again at some point unless you do something very differently.

As for poor parents, yep there's probably loads, different issue though i many respects, teachers and other people who get paid to look after kids should aspire to more professional standards.

Those folk that are condemming "the system" and the folk that work in it - have you ever had to take responsibility for other people? Its both a heavy load and its actually very difficult to get right 100% of the time

I bet none of you have ever been in that position of responsibility

Stumpyjohn is right - I have heard the concept before and thats why "near misses" should be reported and investigated

It's Bird's Triangle - apparently
1 Serious or disabling injury
10 Minor (First Aid)
30 Damage
600 Near Miss

I'd put making a decision to ignore an asthmatic kid struggling for breath in the same league as deciding to drink a few bottles of booze and go for a drive.

Maybe no-one will get hurt...

TandemJeremy - Member
Those folk that are condemming "the system" and the folk that work in it - have you ever had to take responsibility for other people? Its both a heavy load and its actually very difficult to get right 100% of the time
...........................................................
And they get paid for the responsibility,and know what the job entails before they take the first pay check.

All accidents have a cause,and should be investigated,and action taken to stop it happening again.

all accidents have a cause,and should be investigated,and action taken to stop it happening again

every action should be stamped, double stamped and ticked off and marked and assessed and marked and stamped and recorded and judged and stamped and only then can we go to bed before we get up and start stamping and marking and assessing and judging and recording and questioning and NEVER GET ANYTHING ****ING DONE AND DIE SAD AND BORED AND DULL AND ALONE

johnners - Member

You've cast your net wide there, and I don't see what any of those has to do with the case of the boy with asthma.

That's because project sees all public sector workers as one single entity.

And he appears to be on a personal crusade against them - judging by his recent posts. In which his rants have ranged from demanding that schools teachers who's schools have had to close during the freeze, get out and clear the snow from his street to, "[i]Social workers are probably the most useless and self promoting people ever,they have no concept of people as people[/i]"

So yeah, if he can find the odd example of where something has gone drastically wrong, he will condemn them all.

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The idea is that you actually take the near misses seriously......

Absolutely. Because as you point out on the back if this tragic incident, there will have been many "near misses"..........all of those occasions in which a child almost died of an asthma attack, had it not been for the fact that the teachers called an ambulance.

And as you say, [i]"other teachers should consider themselves lucky it wasn't them and look at their own behaviour."[/i]

......lucky indeed, that they called an ambulance. And I do hope they take a good hard look at their own behaviour.

And he (project) appears to be on a personal crusade against them

You have to hope his efforts extend beyond something as futile as just ranting about it on a biking forum. This said, everytime he does it the usual suspects all wade in, so in terms of forum activity he helps keep things rolling along.

the usual suspects all wade in

But of course.........where's the fun in ignoring a Daily Mail fuelled debate ? 😕

I suspect (no evidence, just suspect) more children die from asthma attacks in the one to one care of their parents than die in the care of schools. Sometimes shit just happens and sometimes people screw up, or make bad decisions, or make good decisions but then the circumstances change and with hindsight they should have reviewed or made different decisions, or make bad decisions but get away with it.
Most of the time though I think there is more to gain by putting your efforts into getting your own house in order than into condemning others for their failings, no witch hunt required, the case is being dealt with by those who are responsible for dealing with it, the papers have made their profit from the death of a child maintaining or boosting their circulation (sorry about that odd point, but any kind of profit from misery pisses me off, even when under the guise of reporting).

Teachers don't kill people, people do! (thank you G.L.C.)
Nobody is perfect and unfortunately, sometimes tragically, mistakes do happen despite the best attempts to avoid them.

(and no, I don't think they should be let off in any way and yes, I am a teacher).

So Project - I ask you again as you are so quick to condemn others - have you ever been in the position of being responsible for others in this way? Do you understand deep in your heart what a burden it can be?

I have made mistakes - fortunately none of those have resulted in avoidable death - but I live with this everyday I am at work, I make a mistake someone could die.

I live with the dread deep in my soul that the near misses I have been responsible for could have lead to death - do you? what happens when you make a mistake at work?

So please - answer the question - or shut up

Wow! we start with a teacher who made a fatal mistake and end up drawing comparisons with the world's greatest serial killer.. And I'm loosing(sic) the plot? Maybe so, but I still maintain some essence of rational perspective.

I feel really sorry for the teachers involved, as well as the parents and the poor kid. But I think there is a huge amount of hot air spouted on here regarding what teachers are actually able to do. Phone 999? In the middle of a class that you can't leave? If we called 999 every time a child said I feel sick/ ill/ it's too hot in here etc we'd have an ambulance parked at the gate.

Teachers have to make a series of choices, day in, day out, regarding the safety of the kids in their care, of which there are usually 30. They are criticised if they over react they are criticised if they react too mildly.

<unsubstantiated anecdote alert>

I've been in the situation with a kid who had a fit, when I phoned home to let her mum know that we'd called an ambulance and she was on her way to hospital she asked me if I could go with her cos she was still in her pyjamas.

The idea is that you actually take the near misses seriously......

Absolutely. Because as you point out on the back if this tragic incident, there will have been many "near misses"..........all of those occasions in which a child almost died of an asthma attack, had it not been for the fact that the teachers called an ambulance.

That's showing that you don't understand the concept of a near miss. A near miss is when a kid gets left in the corridor but luckily gets over the asthma attack by themselves, what you've described is a person doing their job well. The near miss is not related to the asthma, it's related to the action taken in reponse to the asthma.

A near miss is when a kid gets left in the corridor but luckily gets over the asthma attack by themselves............ The near miss is not related to the asthma, it's related to the action taken in reponse to the asthma.

I understand perfectly what a near miss is. Although I'm not sure that you do. A kid who gets over an asthma attack by themselves, is not a near miss. It is a perfectly normal occurrence.

But I think there is a huge amount of hot air spouted on here regarding what teachers are actually able to do. Phone 999? In the middle of a class that you can't leave?

No. Obviously it is much better to not to leave the class unsupervised, if that is your priority. It's certainly one way of reducing class numbers if one happens to 'pop-off' during a lesson.

You're a teacher? have you ever heard of common sense, or even a mobile phone if you presence is so vital? And as for your anecdote, how is that relevant to what is being discussed here. 🙄

And as for your anecdote, how is that relevant to what is being discussed here.

I [i]think[/i] Monkeeknutz might have been trying give an example of where a parent appeared less concerned about their child's' medical condition, than the teacher.

But that's just a guess, and I might have got it wrong.

Ernie - probably, but the 'unsubstantiated anecdote' was told in the first person. Was he also trying to insinuate that because she was in her pyjamas she [b]must[/b] be a bad parent? Would it have occurred to him that she may have been on night shift and wanted to be accompanied because she was upset?

I probably jumped on it because I am sick and bloody tired of teachers bleating about how hard a job they have and the lack of common sense evident in the post. 😉