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There's a lot of angry rhetoric on here, and not a lot of genuine understanding, compassion and empathy. And very little nuance.
For context; my wife and I said goodbye this morning to her nephew and his girlfriend; they've been over visiting, and were hoping to go to watch Arsenal play Man City this afternoon. When news broke yesterday morning, all they could do was sit glued to their phones, waiting for any information from friends and family in Israel. They then went out to meet up with friends, again to sit glued to their 'phones. My wife's nephew is a reservist, and has been recalled to serve. They were meant to be going home on Monday; that flight has been canceled and they are now sitting in Heathrow airport along with hundreds of other Israelis desperately trying to get home. My wife is wondering if this is the last time she'll ever see him. His mum is today attending the funeral of one of his sister's friends; murdered at a party by Hamas militants. This is likely not the last funeral this family will attend, over the coming days, weeks and months. Everyone knows someone who has been affected by this tragedy.
Until now, most young Israelis see very little of actual combat; the war is distant and removed from their lives. Suddenly, war has been visited upon the more affluent secular middle classes in the big cities. Now, it is real, and incredibly close.
Israel is not one nation together; it is becoming increasingly divided and fractured. There is growing resentment from secular Israelis, towards the religious right, who manage to skip the otherwise mandatory conscription, to pursue 'religious studies'. The last year has been marked by massive weekly demonstrations against the now very far-right government, who want to overhaul the judiciary to make the passage of power easier to those on the far-right. Many in Israel are likening this to fascism.
These attacks have come at a time when Israel is at its weakest possibly at any time in its history. There is no surprise the attacks have taken place; if you beat and abuse a dog long enough, don't be surprised when it comes back and bites you. The only surprise is just how unprepared the Israeli authorities were; such an attack is unprecedented. The swiftness, scale and brutality of the attacks is also unprecedented; Hamas militants rarely venture far into Israeli territory, and seldom with such vigour and speed. But these attacks only mirror what Palestinians have been enduring for decades; midnight raids, beatings, torture etc. To those only speaking of Hamas' atrocities, I'd ask why your silence on those committed by the IDF? This is one of the most one-sided conflicts in history, and the tactics being used by Hamas have been learned undoubtedly from their Israeli oppressors. The rape of women, the murder of children; Israeli forces know all about that. That's being going on for as long as this conflict has. If you condemn the actions of Hamas, then you must also condemn those of the Israeli forces. Why aren't you? The response from Western governments has been unsurprising; the same cowardly platitudes about Israel 'defending itself, yet silence over the same rights of Palestinians. Hamas exists because of the brutality meted out by Israel. There is no space for liberalism in war. We don't have to condone their actions by understanding them.
As we sit behind our keyboards, venting our own frustrations, insecurities and inadequacies, innocent people are dying. It doesn't matter which side; nobody has the moral high ground here. But one side has far greater numbers, and a far, far more deadly arsenal. And one side has the constant backing of the West. And what are we in the West doing about it? Whilst the money flows, whilst we continue to benefit from the rich vein of technological progress Israel has to offer, whilst those in power do what suits their interests to shore up power, nothing will change. And more innocent people will die.
not a lot of genuine understanding, compassion and empathy
nobody has the moral high ground here.
Probably the two best comments I’ve seen in 137 posts on this thread.
Hamas and the Israeli government as as bad as each other. They have both committed atrocities in the last god knows how many years. The fact our government supports what Israel is doing is the shocking thing. No one seems to want to criticise what Israel is currently doing with Palestine in general or the fact they are bombing civilians in Gaza.
This is absolute shite - folk always fail to understand that as well being pro liberation of Palestine, Hamas are first and foremost hard-line Islamists who seek the entire destruction of Israel and the Jews. It's their stated reason to exist. There is no agreement that could ever be reached on earth that would satisfy their aims.
The problem with the likes of Hamas, is that they simply won’t negotiate.
It does not want a 2 state solution.
It states that it wants to destroy Israel and is considered to be genocidal by many, by wanting to destroy all Jews.
When it states that it wants to liberate Palestine, it means all of Israel.
I don’t agree with Israel behaviour at times but what to do you do about something that exists only to absolutely destroy you?
For balance, let's look at just one of those in Israel's current 'democractic' government:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/02/15/israel-ben-gvir-netanyahu-government/
Ben Gvir wants to cleanse Israel of all Arabs, and is totally opposed to any form of Palestinian self-determination. So, pretty much the exact mirror of Hamas extremists. The difference is, Ittamar Ben Gvir is the head of Israeli National Security. Now; if you're a Palestinian living under Israeli oppression, are you going to think that such a person has your interests at heart? No. So now we start to understand why Hamas exists, and why it is so extremist. There is no way on earth people like Ben Gvir are ever going to agree to any peace plan that offers Palestinian statehood or self-determination. So why is the conversation about 'peace' so one-sided?
So, pretty much the exact mirror of Hamas extremists.
It's pretty grim stuff from the Israeli far right I agree.
However, it's not genocidal.
Hamas and others won't settle for anything else except the total destruction of Israel.
This is a very ominous development. It makes it impossible for American politicians to do anything to restrain Israeli retaliations. Israel knows that. The same will hold true for every other country whose citizens have been taken hostage. The smartest thing Hamas could do right now would be to release any non-Israeli hostages.
https://twitter.com/willcain/status/1711008753837801946
It’s pretty grim stuff from the Israeli far right I agree.
However, it’s not genocidal.
Hamas and others won’t settle for anything else except the total destruction of Israel.
Again, you have a one-sided view. Please read up on the various far-right extremists that make up the current Israeli cabinet.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-government-most-right-wing-meet-ministers
These are far-right extremists. Many have been convicted of various crimes including violence, many are vehemently homophobic and racist, and many would happily see the Palestinians wiped out. Please don't become an apologist for the Israeli far-right, in your quest to make Hamas out as the only bad guys. I'm not denying the evils of Hamas, or trying to play them down as some on this tread are, but it's essential to have balance in this debate.
Because of f the power of the Jewish lobby around the world and the inability to criticise the state of Israel without being accused of being anti semetic.
I think that's a smokescreen. I believe the real reason Israeli atrocities are overlooked, is because of the flow of money, via arms sales, the technology industries, or even oil:
There's good reason the West turns a blind eye, and why Western media outlets won't focus too heavily on events such as this, and that's because of the extremely large sums of money involved that ultimately suit Western economic imperialism. Judaism and Jewishness really doesn't have a much of a part to play in all this; Capitalism has no barriers regarding religion or culture. What could affect things in terms of a long term situation, is if Israel does implode into a bitter fight between the far-right and secular liberalism. It's the secular, moderate Israelis who are the better educated, who are driving the tech industries and commerce. It's also the secular Israelis who are filling the ranks of the military; the religious fundamentalists refuse to join and seem to get away with it on the grounds of 'religious observance and studies'. Those affluent middle class secular Israelis, whose kids are the ones having to face Hamas, are fed up with this lurch towards extremism, and I predict some kickback. When the antics of the far-right start adversely affecting share prices, then we might start to see some foreign intervention. There is too much money tied up in Israel for Western powers to risk losing because of a bunch of fundamentalists.
To those only speaking of Hamas’ atrocities, I’d ask why your silence on those committed by the IDF?
No silence. This is by no means an uncommon topic in my family, which includes many left-wing secular Jews living in the UK and Israel.
I just really didn’t feel the need to ‘both sides’ this yesterday, and especially not when replying to someone whose only input has been variations on “What about Israsel?” and a flimsily-excused denial of the terrorist tactics of those who carried out yesterday’s attacks on civilians.
No silence. This is by no means an uncommon topic in my family, which includes many left-wing secular Jews living in the UK and Israel.
I just really didn’t feel the need to ‘both sides’ this yesterday, and especially not when replying to someone whose only input has been variations on “What about Israsel?” and a flimsily-excused denial of the terrorist tactics of those who carried out yesterday’s attacks on civilians.
I can understand that, but to others, condemning one side but not the other does make it look like you are partisan. And you have to accept that in terms of atrocities committed, Israel is way, way ahead. Their attacks on civilians have resulted in far more deaths and serious injuries. But I agree that the actions of Hamas must be condemned also.
My wife's nephew and partner, plus their friends, now seem to have tickets for flights to Tel Aviv. I've been secretly hoping they wouldn't get any, and would be stuck here in the UK for the foreseeable future at least. My wife is very upset by it all. The individual human stories are heartbreaking.
"Everywhere you go, you see death - Gaza doctor
Dr Khamis Elessi, a neuro-rehabilitation and pain medicine consultant based in Gaza City, spoke to the BBC earlier.
"Everywhere you are going in Gaza you see funerals, you see death," he says. "It's like you are watching a movie about the end of life on this earth".
Elessi says he moved his family from their fourth-floor home to his brother's on the ground floor because, on the fourth floor, "the whole building is moving from right to left and from side to side".
He says he hasn't slept since yesterday. "You cannot just close your eyes, the kids are crying and screaming, there is no electricity, there's no internet and so you feel you could be next.
"This bomb could be on top your home, on [on] top of your apartment.""
"US citizen among missing, says father
The father of a 23-year-old US citizen has confirmed that his son is among those missing after an outdoor music festival came under attack on Saturday.
California-born Hersh Golberg-Polin, a dual US-Israeli citizen, texted his parents "I love you" and "I'm sorry" while the attack was taking place, his father Jonathantold the Jerusalem Post.
Goldberg-Polin had reportedly finished his military service in April and had been working as a waiter and medic since then. He had been living in Israel since he was seven years old.
“We just want him home and safe,” Jonathan Polin told the newspaper."
It's horrific, all round.
I suspect that this may be true. There will be headlines for a week or two, then attention will move on to the next crisis. Hamas will be discredited as rapists and murderers and the world will ignore what happens in Gaza. Huge own goal by Hamas. Won a battle, lost the war.
https://twitter.com/ulrichspeck/status/1710928124341305411
I’m going to be charitable and suggest some people posting here haven’t bothered to look at any news. It’s hard to see how a proclaimed 5000 rocket attack and taking people hostage is going to lead to anything except a very large reprisal mission on all of Gaza
I’m going to be charitable and suggest that you are not aware of how many UN resolutions have been ignored by the state of Israel and just how much land they have illegally occupied.
I abhor the approach of many people and the state of Israel that people who state they understand that the state of Israel bad behaved illegally and broken international law - are antisemitic.
I as many people, believe that Jewish people do need a state and have been victimised throughout history, but that state needs to behave legally. That doesn’t mean they are entitled to behave with impunity.
I suspect that this may be true. There will be headlines for a week or two, then attention will move on to the next crisis. Hamas will be discredited as rapists and murderers and the world will ignore what happens in Gaza. Huge own goal by Hamas. Won a battle, lost the war.
I disagree. I think this is your own bias talking here. You have to understand that not everyone sees it as you do; there are those who see the opposite, and those who see varying shades of grey and nuance. What will happen, is that there will undoubtedly be a lot of debate and arguing in Israel itself, as different actions attempt to ascribe blame. Further afield, social media will be awash with opinion, and once again the spectre of illegal occupation by Israel will raise its ugly head. And you're forgetting the hostages; no that it's known that there are multiple foreign people involved, those respective governments will be urging Israel to act with extreme caution. The Israeli government, of course, will not want to listen, as usual. But if US nationals for instance are harmed or killed as a result of Israeli retaliation, then that will open up a massive can of works in terms of diplomacy and politics. The central topic of debate globally right now, isn't really Hamas and their atrocities; it's why this situation occurs in the first place, and in that regard, the buck stops with Israel. Many Israelis already believe that their lives are put at unnecessary risk by the belligerence of the government, so an escalation of that will definitely lead to greater vociferation and condemnation. And of course, there will also be many who will call for the annihilation of Palestine and its people. So, far from being an 'own goal' by Hamas, if you choose to reduce matters to such crass terms, it will merely inflame opinions on all sides. As it has on this very thread. People need to put their own bias to one side, to drop the rhetoric, and think of the human consequences.
People need to put their own bias to one side, to drop the rhetoric, and think of the human consequences.
This.
If we want to go back decades - my own grandfather was shot and injured by an Israeli settler. He wasn’t a Palestinian objecting and rebelling against giving land to settlers - he was an English soldier, serving in Palestine. The settlers decided that the English government and its soldiers were not working quickly enough.
He never forgave the state of Israel for some of the atrocities he saw. A someone who also guarded prisoners at Nuremburg and saw the atrocities presented in the trials - atrocities against Jews, homosexuals, the disabled and other opponents of the Nazi regime, he couldn’t believe that Jewish people acted so horrifically towards others.
I can understand that, but to others, condemning one side but not the other does make it look like you are partisan.
To my thinking, it’s those who ‘both sides’ or ‘what about’ when one side attacks the other who look partisan*. It implicitly, or in some cases explicitly, excuses the acts of the attackers.
The attackers see support, the attacked see more enemies.
Sometimes you just need to keep it simple: condemn the killers and call for peace.
There have been plenty of other opportunities this year for a both sides thread.
*Not as partisan as the people actually celebrating, such as those in London yesterday, but the ‘both siders’ help them feel justified too.
To my thinking, it’s those who ‘both sides’ or ‘what about’ when one side attacks the other who look partisan*.
But why? Aren't people simply asking for balance? In order to understand any conflict, you have to look at both sides. Which people have down here, but some are choosing to focus only on one side, as it better suits their own narrative to do so. That's understandable, but people should be more mindful of the nuance and accepting different perspectives.
It implicitly, or in some cases explicitly, excuses the acts of the attackers.
Again, this is a perspective coloured by personal bias. You can't accuse someone of this just because they disagree with you. Because you may well be wrong, and it doesn't further the discussion any.
Sometimes you just need to keep it simple: condemn the killers and call for peace.
Sure, but let's apply the condemnation equally, and not be partisan.
*Not as partisan as the people actually celebrating, such as those in London yesterday, but the ‘both siders’ help them feel justified too.
I've witnessed this. In an area of North London with a large Orthodox Jewish population. I think it's abhorrent and extremely provocative, but then I want to understand why people are acting this way, rather than simply condemning them. The people doing this seem to be young men of Middle Eastern/North African appearance, so I'm assuming Muslim. To me, they appear uneducated and naive, and have a simplistic view of the world, bereft of nuance or any deeper understanding. They're angry young men who want to vent their own frustrations at inequality, and Jews become their target, because they fail to de-conflate Jews with Israel. I doubt they've ever engaged in any meaningful discussion about the subject, and just see it as something to kick off about. It's aggressive, threatening and frightening. And it needs condemning for what it is, but not before understanding where that anger comes from. Because if you don't try to understand the root cause, you cannot deal with the problem. I'm sure that those young men, if you were to explain things in a rational and relatable way, would have more of a think about things, and why their actions are harmful and deeply offensive. But expressing their solidarity with those choosing to fight against what they are seeing as injustice, that's got to be acknowledged for what it is and where it comes from. Understand, don't hate.
A someone who also guarded prisoners at Nuremburg and saw the atrocities presented in the trials – atrocities against Jews, homosexuals, the disabled and other opponents of the Nazi regime, he couldn’t believe that Jewish people acted so horrifically towards others.
Behaving horrifically towards others is a human trait unfortunately. Every religion, race and nationality has the potential to behave that way if circumstances permit.
Behaving horrifically towards others is a human trait unfortunately. Every religion, race and nationality has the potential to behave that way if circumstances permit.
Probably a poor choice of words on my part, he had seen it and new it happened - but he was extremely disappointed.
His beliefs hugely influenced mine, he didn’t believe that nations who persecuted others and used violence to oppress and control
Our next set of horrors is Israel is going to retaliate. Hamas isn't going to make any headway now the entire Israeli army has been mobilized, and we will have pockets of hamas terrorists firing from populated urban areas which will be met by heavy rocket bombardment from Israel. The only people who are going to suffer now is the Palestinian families who live in those areas and have no say or ability to stop the terrorists launching attacks, but will bear the full brunt of all the counter attacks.
Israel will be exonerated by the main world players for these strikes, even though they will be against civilians in densely populated urban areas.
Hamas arent stupid, they know the response will be a ground invasion of Gaza. They'll be ready and hiding in the civ popluation. They'll have able to give the IDF a hard time whilist ensuring the civ pop get a pasting too. Urban warfare is awful.
But why? Aren’t people simply asking for balance? In order to understand any conflict, you have to look at both sides.
I thought I explained it well, but I will try again.
If you call for balance during one side’s attack, you diminish its significance and implicitly excuse it.
If you go straight to whataboutery, it explicitly excuses and even justifies the violence that’s happening at that moment, and it does so using the same reasoning that lead to the aggression.
There’s a time to “apply condemnation equally” but it’s not when one side is in the midst of committing indiscriminate murder.
Christ. The US is sending a carrier strike force to the Eastern Med in support of Israel. Gaza is likely to be wiped off the face of the earth. Poor sods, the electricity has been cut off to the whole strip apparently; there's only going to be one way this ends, probably the whole Middle East at war, then who the hell knows from there?
Christ. The US is sending a carrier strike force to the Eastern Med in support of Israel.
That's never going to end well. It never does. I guess we are too close to the US election to expect anything other than a warmongering response in support of Israel.
So why is the conversation about ‘peace’ so one-sided?
Maybe because this:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
Is Article 10 of the document which sets out one side's ideology as decreed by its founders.
If we want to go back decades – my own grandfather was shot and injured by an Israeli settler. He wasn’t a Palestinian objecting and rebelling against giving land to settlers – he was an English soldier, serving in Palestine. The settlers decided that the English government and its soldiers were not working quickly enough.
I'm not saying your grandfather individually had much of a say in the matter, but the Brits weren't just "not working quickly enough". The Brits were an imperial power that had for decades been completely duplicitous in making totally inconsistent promises to Jews and Arabs about what would happen in Mandatory Palestine, and had blocked Jewish migration to both the UK and Palestine - even after the concentration camps and the genocide of Jews (and others) were well known, and even after World War Two was over! You would have to have been totally nuts to trust an Imperial, anti-Semitic, European power to safeguard you.
Driving the Brits out of Palestine (not that they were particularly keen to stay at that point) and establishing a state by any means necessary was the only rational choice. Plus, more generally, if you're an empire trying to control foreign lands, you can expect people to attack you from time to time...
As I say - obviously not a question of choice for many British soldiers. My own grandfather was engaged in another theatre, were one empire was fighting another for control of land that really belonged to the people that lived there.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-restrictions-on-jewish-immigration-to-palestine
Until now, most young Israelis see very little of actual combat; the war is distant and removed from their lives. Suddenly, war has been visited upon the more affluent secular middle classes in the big cities. Now, it is real, and incredibly close.
There's a piece of footage taken at some kind of festival where young Israelis are dancing to techno while Hamas microlights are flying into view. And in a way it's a microcosm of what Israel has insulated itself from the Palestinian question in the last 20 years: a European-style, raucous society where tattooed fashionable kids set up vegan carbon neutral crypto platforms, and their parents buy Ikea from African and Filipino shop workers. And meanwhile a short distance away there is Gaza and the West Bank, divided up, choked and crushed by the occupation. There is no free exit - no free trade - no free flow of money - no land tenure or security for farmers. But you can hang out with an iced frapp and ignore all that practically your whole life.
It didn't used to be like this - for example at the time of the first intifada. With the separation wall and the influx of foreign, non-Arab labour, what happened in the West Bank used to really impact Israeli life and give them a stake in its success or failure. Perhaps for totally understandable reasons, that visibility is now gone. Perhaps a little like how US and UK people are oblivious to the wars in Syria and the Sahel and Yemen in which their governments remain deeply involved.
If you call for balance during one side’s attack
The Palestinians are under constant attack by Israel, this is not a new development. Israeli occupation is enforced through military might, not through some sort of agreement with the Palestinians.
The only development which has occurred in the last couple of days is that the Palestinian resistance has challenged Israeli military might to a degree never seen before. The idea that there was peace before "one side" launched an attack is nonsense.
How else do you expect the Palestinians to resist the occupation of their lands by a foreign invader? Or don't you think that they should resist the illegal occupation of their country?
I seem to remember reading about Zionists campaigning to stop refugees getting into the US so they had to go to Palestine, anti-Semitic bastards.
The only development which has occurred in the last couple of days is that the Palestinian resistance has challenged Israeli military might to a degree never seen before.
Slitting pensioners throats is not challenging anyones military might.
Slitting pensioners throats is not challenging anyones military might.
No it's not, which is why it is obviously not what I am talking about.
Or are suggesting that the only way that the Palestinians can reasonably challenge Israeli occupation is by slitting pensioners throats?
I reckon your problem is that you don't actually believe that the Palestinians have any right to challenge the illegal occupation of their country - am I right?
As an aside, I found the references to Arab immigration crowding out Jewish immigration in mandatory Palestine a bit if a stretch - considering the land borders were porousbor nonexistent at the time, and that there had always been migration for work, trade, marriage and study between the towns of Palestine and Damascus, Cairo, Beirut, Amman etc.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-restrictions-on-jewish-immigration-to-palestine
I seem to remember...
🤣
The Palestinians are under constant attack by Israel, this is not a new development. Israeli occupation is enforced through military might, not through some sort of agreement with the Palestinians.
The only development which has occurred in the last couple of days is that the Palestinian resistance has challenged Israeli military might to a degree never seen before. The idea that there was peace before “one side” launched an attack is nonsense.
How else do you expect the Palestinians to resist the occupation of their lands by a foreign invader? Or don’t you think that they should resist the illegal occupation of their country?
Still waiting to question earlier.
There is one root cause for this. The Israeli illgal occopation and the forming of the gaza ghetto
Root cause or not, war crimes are not an excusable retaliation for war crimes.
Ever.
You can similarly understand what got people to that point without endorsing their actions.
And FFS stop engaging with Ernie, he's just a sealioning shit stirrer who will use any excuse for an argument.
For those who do not understand what a hideous crime has and still is being committed against an entire people look at this.
This an interesting news item which was reported two days before Hamas launched their attack:
I only became aware of that ^^ because Hamas are currently claiming that they launched their attack in retaliation for the killing of 4 Palestinians. This is obviously nonsense as the attack had clearly been planned for a very long time.
But it does show the background to this latest development and there have undoubtedly been very many similar incidents since Hamas first started planning their attack, pretty much on a daily basis I would imagine.
So this is what was being reported last Thursday, two days before Hamas launched their attack:
“What is happening on the main street of the town of Huwara is a real battlefield between Palestinian residents and Israeli settlers. The situation in our town is very, very difficult,”
Netanyahu might well be claiming today that 'Israel is at war', but it has obviously been at war for a very long time. The only difference appears to be that one side was doing practically all the killing until this weekend.
And FFS stop engaging with Ernie, he’s just a sealioning shit stirrer who will use any excuse for an argument.
Wise words from squirrelking. You don't have to argue with me just because you don't agree with my point of view.
I have just realised the significance of this paragraph in the link which I have just posted:
Settlers regularly attack Huwara, including in February when they killed one Palestinian in a rampage and destroyed homes and cars. An Israeli general described the incident as a pogrom, but Israel’s far-right finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, later called for Huwara to be wiped out.
So an Israeli general describes the incident as a 'pogrom' (a particularly damning term for a Jew to use) and the Israeli finance minister calls for the Palestinian town to be "wiped out".
For those who don't know, Bezalel Smotrich, who is deputy speaker as well as Israeli finance minister, is proud to call himself a "fascist" :
https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/01/18/bezalel-smotrich-israel-minister-fascist-homophobe-kan/
The current Israeli government is the most right-wing Israeli government in history. They very clearly want no peace with the Palestinians, they want Palestinians towns wiped out. Never has the future looked more bleak for the Palestinians. The second most senior cabinet minister calls himself a fascist.
And yet some people believe that the Palestinians should bide their time and be patient with this foreign far-right government which illegally occupies their lands, violates international law, and hates them.
'🤣' and your point is?
**** knows. I think we're supposed to feel sorry for the kind of people that raped and beat a 22 year old woman to death just for existing whilst filming it for the world's media as they were forced into it really.
Or maybe we're supposed to just ignore it, I'm not really sure at this point.
I could link videos if you all like, just so we're all on the same page. Plenty more where that came from, there's another awesome one of them rushing the border post with plenty of bodies lying around. Of course the IDF have plenty of form for that as well so it's not really a crime.
I think we’re supposed to feel sorry for the kind of people that raped and beat a 22 year old woman to death just for existing whilst filming it for the world’s media as they were forced into it really.
Is that what you really "think"?