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The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.
It’s not “an idea”, it is what’s happening, right now. A fact on the ground, not an opinion. And should be condemned outright. Yes, the fight to regain stolen ground will mean death and destruction along the way. But if Ukraine were using the same tactics against Russian occupied regions… rape as a weapon of war, execution of civilian hostages, close quarters machine gunning of infants… the world would rightly be up in arms.
Israel should be back behind the green line, and the UN and its members should have insisted on that decades ago (USA are not the only culprits here, but are the most important). Without the international community being stronger with Israel about its continuing expansion, fighting is unavoidable. The tactics being seen right now should be condemned by all though. You can be on the side of those struggling for their freedom and their land against an occupying oppressor and still say what much of has recently happened is wrong, must stop, is counterproductive, and some of it is quite frankly down right evil.
The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.
There is absolutely no way that someone with so much to say on this topic can genuinely hold this opinion, given the terabytes of video and photo evidence to the contrary that's become available in the last 26 hours. Ernie, I'll be kind and consider you're playing Devil's Advocate.
The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.
It's called "terrorism". The aim isn't to win militarily, it's to provoke terror among the civilian population.
Israel should be back behind the green line, and the UN and its members should have insisted on that decades ago (USA are not the only culprits here, but are the most important). Without the international community being stronger with Israel about its continuing expansion, fighting is unavoidable. The tactics being seen right now should be condemned by all though.
It's far more complex than that. One major issue is that the U.S. agreed in the 1970s to provide military aid to Egypt as part of the peace deal between Israel and Egypt. Military aid to Israel is also related to that. Another war between Egypt and Israel would be catastrophic, so the U.S. is stuck providing military aid to two countries with very problematic histories. Cutting off the support would be worse though, so the idea that the U.S. should cut off support for Israel is a non-starter. That would destabilize the region and probably lead to Israel launching preemptive strikes against Iran to prevent Iran building nuclear weapons.
An important part of signing a peace treaty with Israel is recognition of Israel. Hamas refuse to do that, their stated aim is the destruction of Israel. Israel interprets that as a call for a second holocaust and the events of this week will make them double down on that belief. Unless the international community is willing to crack down on Hamas and put its leaders on trial for their crimes, Israel will never accept any deal brokered by outside countries. Having lefties in Western countries dismissing the killing of Israeli citizens just hardens Israeli's view that the world does not care about the killing of Jews.
Back in the 1990s, it looked like there was a serious chance of a peace deal, where Israel would return occupied lands and Palestinians would recognize Israel. Hard liners on both sides kept provoking violence in order to sabotage that - they aren't interested in peace, they benefit from continuing conflict. For any peace deal to work, as well as Israel withdrawing from occupied territories, Palestinian leaders would need to guarantee that violence against Israel stopped. No Palestinian leader could enforce any deal like that, so no Israeli leader could sell that to the Israeli public. This war is going to go very badly for Palestinians, anyone cheering it on in the belief that it might somehow teach Israelis a lesson is quite deluded. The lesson that Israelis will take from it is that Palestinians can never be trusted and it is pointless to try negotiating with them. So, there's no point in calling on Israel to do anything unless the international community is willing to hold Hamas leaders to the standards that Israel is called to uphold.
I can’t see that you have condemned that. Would it be fair to call you a ghoulish, morally-bankrupt terrorism apologist?
There's a difference between not addressing and condemning specific atrocities individually, and blanket statements claiming Palestine* don't attack civilians, despite historical evidence as well as the terabytes evidence that have become available in the past day.
Nobody here is cheering on the murder of Palestinean journalists or the mass bulldozing of Palestinean settlements. But some are playing the whataboutery card, balancing the forced displacement of people against the brutal murder of families hiding in bomb shelters and deciding that justice has been served.
I challenge you to go look on telegram or even Twitter and look at the piles of bodies in Sderot and the surrounding areas, watch the videos of women and children being kidnapped, the German festival goer's broken and naked body being kicked and spit on as it is paraded around the streets of Gaza, and then come back here and tell us your opinion still holds water.
*and really you should be using Hamas here, but to do that would differentiate between the people and the terrorist organisation which lessens the impact of your outrage when the IDF retaliates
But if Ukraine were using the same tactics against Russian occupied regions…<br /><br />
The solution is obviously to supply the Palestinians with HIMARS and Leopard tanks. Then they wouldn’t have to attack soft targets.
oh, while we’re on the subject, any thoughts about Ikrainian drones hitting apartment buildings?
It’s called “terrorism”. The aim isn’t to win militarily, it’s to provoke terror among the civilian population.<br /><br />
“shock and awe” you mean? Really, “terrorism” as a label serves no useful purpose except to tell us clearly what your prejudices are.
Nice to see some classy bickering
I haven't seen any tin foil theories about why hamas have decided to do a massive surprise escalation now. seemed very out of the blue.
given who their allies are, maybe there is some bigger play here. unless hamas are just basically insane and there isnt a bigger plan and its just about killing jews. what they have just done is going to make the life of their people much worse
No conspiracy needed. It's to ruin the Israel-Saudi "normalisation" talks, and it looks like it worked.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/significance-hamas-chose-attack-israel-now-rcna119351
what they have just done is going to make the life of their people much worse <br /><br />
because their lives were so comfortable before, right?
Another crucial thing that lefties constantly seem to miss is that other people have agency. The fantasy that the U.S. can somehow force Israel, Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, etc. to accept treaties that they aren't interested in accepting ignores that other countries make their decisions based on their own assessments of their national interests. The same goes for Hamas - the idea that they will just lay down their weapons if Israel returns occupied territories ignores that they have their own agenda and agency, an agenda which is very different from comfortable middle-class people living in rich Western countries. Hamas are not interested in a peace treaty with Israel, their goal is to destroy Israel. Israel knows this and they will not be coerced into signing any agreement, especially after the events of this week.
The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.
It’s called “terrorism”. The aim isn’t to win militarily, it’s to provoke terror among the civilian population.
I don't know if this is deliberate or whether there is a genuine 'misunderstanding' of what I was saying.
I was of course refering to Palestinian rocket attacks. Rockets are a principal weapon used by the Palestinian resistance, there is no doubt that they are inaccurate, they are afterall made covertly using smuggled materials.
Their use is widespread and undisputed. But the idea that Palestinians would deliberately use these extremely valuable and limited resources against civilian targets rather than military targets is just simply daft. Of course they would rather that they hit a military target, if for no other reason than it would make them more useful and effective.
And as for the definition of 'terrorism', the turkey shoots which the IDF regularly carries out against the unarmed people of Gaza is precisely to instill terror. Israeli governments are renowned for their collective punishment of the Palestinian people.
Collective punishment is banned under Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, why do think that might be? Yup, because it is terrorism.
Netanyahu said yesterday "I'm telling the people of Gaza: get out of there now, because we're about to act everywhere with all our force," I don't know if he said that with a straight face, knowing as he does that Gaza is basically a huge concentration camp.
So now it will of course be the fault of all the men, women, and children, who die, not his, he will claim.
lefties
Yawn.
jeez. unnecessary really
I never said anyone had a comfortable live. I said it's been made worse by these horrific actions. for people on both sides
resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter
I didn't know about the Saudi thing, thanks for that, off to read...
Of course they would rather that they hit a military target, if for no other reason than it would make them more useful and effective.
I'll ask again. Go watch the videos of civilians being machine gunned in bomb shelters, go watch the Philippino farm workers herded into a room and shot, and then come back and tell us that Hamas prefer military targets.
resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter
Like schools and hospitals you mean? Like the ones routinely destroyed by the Israelis? If there was a path to peace and prosperity do you suppose that Hamas would be able to get volunteers to stuff envelopes, never mind to strap on suicide vests?
But the idea that Palestinians would deliberately use these extremely valuable and limited resources against civilian targets rather than military targets is just simply daft.
Have you never read a single newspaper in the last 30 years? How much evidence do you need before you accept that Hamas targets Israeli civilians as a matter of policy? I think everyone on here would love to see Israel and Palestinians live together in peace, but that won't come about by denying the reality that Hamas have no interest in a peace treaty and have a policy of indiscriminately killing Israeli civilians in order to make any peace deal impossible.
And have any of you so concerned about the plight of poor old Hamas considered what has happened when they were allowed into other countries? There's a reason Egypt has shut their border with Gaza. Maybe look at the events around Black September and who was involved, or consider why Lebanon is now a hell hole in the firm grasp of Hezbollah rather than the international trade hub it was on the verge of becoming.
resources could be spent on humanitarian activity or instead you can spend it on loads of missiles and kill innocent people and just make a shit situation a massive amount shitter
So you are denying the right of people living under occupation to fight, a right which is enshrined under international law, why? Because they are Palestinians?
Israel is the last remaining colony held by Western powers, they even talk of "settlers" ffs.
I can’t comment on whether it is sexual but you seem to have a total and callous disregard for the murder of innocent Palestinian civilians.
Actually I condemn the murder of anyone. You on the other hand not so much and still preach that what’s happened in the last 24 hours is justifiable in some way and swerve answering direct questions. So we are clear women have been raped, murdered, bodies defiled and paraded on the back of picks for people to spit and cheer over.
A very simple and binary question. Do you condemn that y/n?
And as for the definition of ‘terrorism’, the turkey shoots which the IDF regularly carries out against the unarmed people of Gaza
Amateur stuff. Dresden and Hiroshima FTW
And have any of you so concerned about the plight of poor old Hamas considered what has happened when they were allowed into other countries?
And, while you're at it, read up on the history of the PLO and why Jordan booted them out decades ago. Nobody wants armed militants in their country, including Islamic countries.
Anyway I have got to meet my Iranian friend for a bike ride at 9am, so I will leave it for now.
I think everyone on here would love to see Israel and Palestinians live together in peace, but that won’t come about by denying the reality that Hamas have no interest in a peace treaty and have a policy of indiscriminately killing Israeli civilians in order to make any peace deal impossible.
Remind us of the peace initiatives undertaken by the current Israeli government; I seem to have missed them.
Anyway I have got to meet my Iranian friend for a bike ride at 9am, so I will leave it for now.
Off to get a fresh set of talking points?
Remind us of the peace initiatives undertaken by the current Israeli government; I seem to have missed them.
The Israeli government gave up on peace initiatives long ago. Right-wing Israelis' view is that Palestinians cannot be trusted and they will not negotiate with groups like Hamas whose goal is the destruction of Israel. This week's events will have cemented those views in the minds of every Israeli so no peace initiatives will be possible for decades to come. That's why celebrating the killing of Israeli civilians is so stupid - it just convinces Israelis that the world doesn't care about the killing of Jews and that makes things even worse for Palestinians.
Always interesting to see how in discussions like this can descend with the ad homs, pejorative terms, from the anecdote to the generalization, the liberal use of contested terms. Any country based on apartheid and even more so one that 'settles' on others' land is creating an ever expanding powder keg for itself. It's no surprise when every now and then it goes off.
Its like the Labour party conference in here, isn't it.
An ad hom is when you attack the person to avoid engaging with their position.
ernielynch's position:
The idea that the Palestinian resistance deliberately targets their extremely limited resources at civilians, rather than useful military assets, is daft in my opinion.
has not been ignored
All these attacks are inside 1967 borders - these civilians are not settlers.
Civilians were deliverabely targeted, not 'collateral damage', there's an abundance of grim evidence that unfolded in real time.
Whatever your opinions on the complexities of the wider Israel / Palestine conflict, yesterdays events were a barbaric outrage.
Hamas and the Israeli government as as bad as each other. They have both committed atrocities in the last god knows how many years. The fact our government supports what Israel is doing is the shocking thing. No one seems to want to criticise what Israel is currently doing with Palestine in general or the fact they are bombing civilians in Gaza.
has not been ignored
The context has been, totally. I wasn't sure if it was deliberate or a misunderstanding, it's now obvious that it was deliberate.
I fully support the right of the Palestinians to engage in armed resistance against an occupation force, as is allowed under international law, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't.
I do not support anyone, and any side, committing atrocities, as is prohibited under international law. HTH
I fully support the right of the Palestinians to engage in an armed resistance against an occupation force, as is allowed under international law, I can’t understand why anyone wouldn’t.
I do not support anyone, and any side, committing atrocities, as is prohibited under international law. HTH
I agree.
However, the problem is that it seems that Hamas main focus is to terrorise civilians, including kidnap, murdering children and rape.
The Israeli government gave up on peace initiatives long ago. <br /><br />
there you go. Progress.
Hpercer, the problem is that it seems that Hamas main focus is to terrorise civilians, including kidnap, murdering children and rape.
Thats A problem for sure. The bigger problem is the situation that leads them to do that. Any thoughts on how to address that?
Hamas and the Israeli government as as bad as each other.
No. Hamas are much worse. Israel is a democracy and it's possible to replace governments and change policies. The current right-wing Israeli government has been drifting further and further into authoritarianism, but they are still nowhere near as bad as Hamas. Hopefully, this attack will cause the current Israeli government to fall and it will be replaced by a more moderate one that is willing to make a serious effort at resolving the problems that the region faces. Whether that happens or not, we don't know, but it's quite a plausible scenario because Israel is a democracy. The idea that Hamas leaders will be ousted and replaced by more moderate leaders is utter fantasy - Hamas is not an organization that aims to govern, it's a violent revolutionary group that has the sole aim of destroying Israel.
However, the problem is that it seems that Hamas main focus is to terrorise civilians, including kidnap, murdering children and rape.<br /><br />
That doesn’t really seem any different to the approach taken by the Israeli government in reality.
Agreed, @thols2. And even looked at in isolation, domestically, Hamas is a dictatorship with a dismal record of torturing and murdering political opponents, on human rights, women’s rights, gay rights etc.
No. Hamas are much worse. Israel is a democracy and it’s possible to replace governments and change policies.
I'm happy to be corrected but wasn't Hamas elected in Gaza? I seem to recall some controversy over it at the time, hence Gaza and the West Bank have different governing parties.
It's a shit show for sure, there are too many religious extremists on both sides, when you look closely enough the difference between atrocities committed by the settlers and Hamas is slight, both sides in this sad conflict have their share of bigoted arseholes that refuse to accept the right of the other to exist and it saddens me tremendously to say that I don't see a long term solution for a couple of generations yet.
Israel is a democracy and it’s possible to replace governments and change policies.
So you're saying it is the expressed will of the Israeli people to kill children, bomb schools etc etc etc ad nauseam. I'm not seeing how that is a good thing ?
I’m happy to be corrected but wasn’t Hamas elected in Gaza?
Yes they were.
For a 4 year term back in 2006.
There have been no elections since then.
The problem with the likes of Hamas, is that they simply won't negotiate.
It does not want a 2 state solution.
It states that it wants to destroy Israel and is considered to be genocidal by many, by wanting to destroy all Jews.
When it states that it wants to liberate Palestine, it means all of Israel.
I don't agree with Israel behaviour at times but what to do you do about something that exists only to absolutely destroy you?
Yes they were.
For a 4 year term back in 2006.
There have been no elections since then
Thanks for bringing me up to date, I can't believe it's been that long, my youngest was born in 2006 and for some reason that seems much closer in time, more like 2016!
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Feuobserver.com%2Fworld%2F151594
Together, they will be sending a letter to Israel's ambassador to the EU, Aharon Leshno-Yaar.
"Preventing the EU from supporting democracy is unacceptable, no matter where it happens," it says, in a copy seen by EUobserver.
I doubt that anybody really understands the full complexity of Palestinian politics. As I understand it, there are multiple competing groups and constantly shifting alliances. Western countries provide funding to the less violent groups, but situations like this generally favor extremists over moderates. So you end up with the, "He's an asshole, but he's our asshole" theory. That nearly always backfires because people just tell you want you want to hear, take your money, then ignore you. That leaves the West in the position of having to prop up leaders who don't deliver on the promises they made just because the alternatives are probably even worse.
Hamas derive their credibility from being willing to fight Israel so they have zero motivation to sign any peace treaty that Israel would accept. The same goes for Israeli right-wingers - their credibility comes from pushing for tough measures against Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups. That dynamic just ratchets up the violence and discredits any moderate voices that want to negotiate a peace deal. This is why Western tankies cheering on the killing of Israeli civilians is so harmful - it just rewards the hard-line Israeli right-wingers.
Israel is a democracy...Hopefully, this attack will cause the current Israeli government to fall and it will be replaced by a more moderate on
Israel is a democracy...for Jewish Israelis. For Palestinians with an Israeli passport, it's a story of segregation, poorer public services, and a legal status as a people whose language and ethnicity are secondary to Hebrew and Jewishness. And for the Palestinians under occupation - can a state that occupies the land of others really be a democracy?
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel
There are no circumstances in which attacking Israel and Israelis results in more moderation on their part!
No-one in Israel gives a shit what terminally online Europeans think. They're smart enough to realise that those whose grandparents fuelled or ignored their genocide aren't ever going to have their best interests in mind. The lesson of Jewish and Israeli history is that the only people who can protect you is your people. You'd be nuts to rely on the goodwill of others or care about their opinion.