[Closed] And still BP's...

...main "concern" is for their shareholders...

Who told you that?

surely any plc's main concern is their shareholders?

the only thing 'driving' companies to invest in 'green' issues is that it will, ultimately, deliver better returns to their shareholders.

it's called capitalism.

...and i bet they all use iPhones.

It's in the best interest of everyone, including the shareholders to get this sorted out as quickly as possible.

They have completely destroyed 1000s of miles of coastline. They have a terrible safety track record. They even cut corners on contractor costs to "fix" this disaster.

Maybe they should channel their efforts into sorting the disaster rather than panicking about dividend payments to fat investors that don't give a to55.

BP deserves to be shut down for this.

"panicking about dividend payments to fat investors that don't give a to55."

mmm, isn't it 20% of all uk pensions that are paid by BP share dividends?

I wouldn't call my retired Mum and Dad fat investors (well, actually I might, but you know what I mean).

we're all to blame as we, no doubt, all eithe rbuy BP products or own their shares (albeit indirectly).

Maybe they should channel their efforts into sorting the disaster rather than panicking about dividend payments to fat investors that don't give a to55.

A huge amount of pension funds in the country have shares tied up in BP, so when you say 'fat investors ', do you mean fat investors like pension holders? It's funny how people assume the only assume rich people are affected by share prices and dividends. Shares in companies like BP are so closely linked to dividends that zero dividend will affect a lot of pension pots.

The is a huge inherent risk in drilling for oil - and everyone who fills their car with fuel shares that responsibility. Including you Surf-Mat.

fat investors that don't give a to55

Pram. Toys.

Get a grip.

You do know that the only reason to be in business is to make money don't you?
Anyway surf-rug - shouldn't you be revising for your SATS?

They have a terrible safety track record

no they don't. I spent 5 years working in health & safety management in the Oil & Gas industry and they are one of the best actually.

HTH

cripes, what a [s]well[/s] ill informed rant

As oil based disasters go this doesn't even make the top 10 in the US chart of all time oil spill f*** ups.

As for cutting corners, I preume they folowed procedures like any company, which are then reviewed and refined periodicaly? Given the nature of the failiure I'm amazed theyve done as well as they have in stopping most of the oil.

And haventy they paid out every single compensation claim made against them within 48 hours or recipt? Theres even a link on their website to the claim form.

they said on the radio today that the leak is an olympic siezed swimming pools worth per day.

This is obviously more than you'd want but isn't of quite the proportions I'd imagined.

Strange the level of outrage in the US is so much greater than it was when Union Carbide managed to wriggle out of paying much compensation.

You do know that the only reason to be in business is to make money don't you?
Anyway surf-rug - shouldn't you be revising for your SATS?

Thanks for the lovely patronization there but I run a company that's doing fine - never been busier in fact.

Patronizing "know it alls" also defend the banks to death, defend greedy energy companies, defend insane public sector executive pay, etc. See they "know" best and us "normal" folk aren't "clever" enough to have an opinion. This is how it works.

Well not in my World it doesn't.

Mmm. It's very easy to be simplistic about this. I think the following article summed it up pretty well for me: [url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/environment/oil-well-capped-before-everyone-realises-it's-their-fault-201006042791/ ]Oil well capped before everyone realises it's their fault[/url]

Further to previous posts BP is paying to compensate/clean up another companies mess to put things right. How many other companies would have put that level of commitment into the spill. (wonder who's insurance will be paying out when the dust settles)

"Greedy oil companies", otherwise known as.... oil companies...

Patronizing "know it alls" also defend the banks to death, defend greedy energy companies, defend insane public sector executive pay, etc. See they "know" best and us "normal" folk aren't "clever" enough to have an opinion. This is how it works.

So, that being the case, feel free to tell us what BP should have been doing instead of what they are.

i agree with you surf mat, but

oil expelled into the gulf by this leak is not even close to the ammount lost each year by oil companies in the niger delta- why no angry threads about that?

I can only assume you never travel by car and only eat food and wear clothes made within walking distance of your house

if not then you are complicit in this too

Thanks for the lovely [b]patronization[/b] there but I run a company that's doing fine - never been busier in fact.

I like my spelling like I like my global polluters. British.

It's patronisation

But the thing is surf-mat, you don't actually know what you're talking about:
[i]They have completely destroyed 1000s of miles of coastline.[/i] - I think that you'll find that this isn't true. Prove me wrong.
[i]They have a terrible safety track record.[/i] - I think you'll find that this isn't true. Prove me wrong.
[i]They even cut corners on contractor costs to "fix" this disaster.[/i] - I think you'll find that this isn't true. Prove me wrong.

there's nothing wrong with an informed opinion

to be fair aP

[i]Under scrutiny after the Texas City Refinery explosion, two BP-owned refineries in Texas City, Texas, and Toledo, Ohio, were responsible for 97 percent (829 of 851) of safety violations by oil refiners between June 2007 and February 2010, as determined by inspections by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration[/i]

[i]On October 30, 2009, the US Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) fined BP an additional $87 million — the largest fine in OSHA history — for failing to correct safety hazards revealed in the 2005 explosion. Inspectors found 270 safety violations that had been previously cited but not fixed and 439 new violations. BP is appealing that fine[/i]

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BP#Refinery_safety_violations ]from wikipedia[/url]

They have a terrible safety track record

Really...or just more high profile in comparison to others?

They even cut corners on contractor costs

A business reduced it's contractor costs. Strange!

BP deserves to be shut down for this.

What about the drilling company who own the rig and associated well control equipment (which failed) and the other contractors who carried out work related to well integrity?
What about the ordinary people with money in pensions invested in BP. Should they suffer?

The is a huge inherent risk in drilling for oil - and everyone who fills their car with fuel shares that responsibility. Including you Surf-Mat.

Well put!

Futureboy
HSE Advisor(Oil & Gas Exploration)

Glad aP stuck his neck out there, I was thinking the same points TBH. And to assume that leaving it spewing oil is financially the best option, well I'm not sure what sort of brain follows that line of thought, but I'd be fairly sure that the guys trying to sort it are not under tight rules regarding spending. They have 12 ROVs permanently under water, do you have any idea of the piloting costs for that? It's like £1000 an hour.

edit - as said above, if you use oil you accept that what you do risks leaks/planet damaging results. And these are just the visible results from a single leak. Consider yourself partially responsible, whether you had a choice or not.

They have completely destroyed 1000s of miles of coastline

I think it's threatened 100 miles of coastline actually.

Are you really criticising a big company for wanting to make money and pandering to the people that own it (shareholders)? If you were against that then you'd be a hardline socialist or communist. Are you?

We work with BP (and other oil majors) - and compared to what most of you will have experienced, they are fanatical about safety.

Part of this is driven by the magnitude of the hazards inherent in the petrochems industry, part is driven by an acute awareness of reputational risk.

The comments about Texas City need to be understood in the proper context. Yes BP were the owner / operator and rightly had to take responsibility - but, they acquired the reputedly dilapidated refinery from Amoco, and if you read the catalogue of issues in the run up most of the procedures, processes (and arguably failures to rectify) culpable were within Amoco's tenure.

So what [i]should[/i] the rest of BP do while all the technical minded people sort the problem out?

So what should the rest of BP do while all the technical minded people sort the problem out?

drink tea and surf the internet

Here we go again! The financially naive socialists bashing capitalism. Wake up guys!!

BP - their shareholders - the main shareholders are pension isntitutions.

They are servicing your pension! Assuming you aren't a public sector worker of course.

Obama is making plenty of anti-British remarks over this spill. Now his own people are on his case for not doing enough and passing the buck. So this is well deserved criticism! Obama was only making such a fuss to deflect attention away from him! He's supposed to be the most powerful man in the world right?

In my experience, when there's a crisis, everyone focuses on solving the problem before they start laying blame. In this respect Obama has shown his true colours. He is NOT the great statesman we thought he was!

I'd ask him this question: How much of the world's oil output does America use? Like the Americans have no interest in oil. 😆

Accidents happen and especially when exploration companies are pressured into taking bigger and bigger risks to get the stuff out of the ground! IN this instance, the sea bed is 1 mile deep with water pressures of 1000lbs per square inch. Well step back America and watch BP and it's contractor struggle, then go on TV and pick holes and stamp your feet like a 2 year old! Unbelievable behaviour for someon in such high authority!!

We ALL depend on oil, so BP and any other oil firm are meeting an essential demand. Of course, they are not poor and the only people who could do anything about the way they overcharge for oil is by applying international political pressure, but NO government seems to want to do this. Could it be something to do with tax receipts?

I feel very sorry for all those affected by the damage and they should be financially compensated.

Perhaps we should remind the Americans how our Primeminister kept tight lipped when the boot was on the other foot regarding oil spills.

Perhaps Obama should be mindful of the 100's of British lives being lost for their questionable conflicts in the Middle East, or the huge cost to Britain to be present there.

drink tea and surf the internet

Tea - fine idea. I'll make myself a cup.#

And good point Spongebob. Who's using this oil that is being extracted here?

Futureboy77:

They have a terrible safety track record

Really...or just more high profile in comparison to others?

No, they actually really do have a terrible safety record.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bps-dismal-safety-record/story?id=10763042

Admittedly as a British Company they probably take a few more hits than US companies, but it is still a big difference.

Were most of the safety problems at former Amoco sites and happened in the period just after BP took control?

Are they any worse than Total who admitted to health and safety breaches at buncefield or the falsification of Shells safety compliance documents on the brent bravo rig in the North Sea etc etc ?

BP's record [b]in the states[/b] looks pretty bad over the last few years, its true.

You need to realise that OSHA have been gunning for them big style since Texas City and as rkk01 says, BP have carried the can to some extent for the failures of others.

It's not even been established who was to blame! AFAIK BP is taking the flack for PR purpoese.

Oh dear, Surf Mat is

[img] [/img]

Futureboy77:

They have a terrible safety track record

Really...or just more high profile in comparison to others?

No, they actually really do have a terrible safety record.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/bps-dismal-safety-record/story?id=10763042

Admittedly as a British Company they probably take a few more hits than US companies, but it is still a big difference.

That article refers to one operating region. BP are obviously multinational.

I've experienced the safety attitude and performance of most operators and BP are up there with the best (although admitedly, none are perfect), within the regions i have covered.

I don't think that most people understand the fact that the rig which drilled the well did not belong to BP. Therefore, [i]one[/i] of the barriers to prevent this (blow out preventers) was not under BP's direct control.

I also don't think that the public have any idea (understandably) of drilling and completing wells, especially the challenges of deep water.
I've been involved first hand and believe me, it's a challenge.

Offshore drilling and the hazards it presents can only truly be appreciated if experienced first hand and the majority of people who put petrol in their car are blissfully ignorant...until something like this happens.

Jamie, did you notice that that article is from a US tv channel's website? Impartial? Likely not. Anti-British? Probably.

I see myself as a socialist, but I also understand that what goes on in the world is driven by market demand, and that is what we're looking at here. We're all culpable and BP are no worse than a whole load of luckier multi nationals. IMO an ill informed point is an ill informed point whether it comes from a socialist or a capitalist. Without meaning to resort to further patronization, I don't think Surf-Matt sounds like a socialist, he sounds like someone who should read around a subject a bit more before ranting about it.

I also don't think that the public have any idea (understandably) of drilling and completing wells, especially the challenges of deep water.
I've been involved first hand and believe me, it's a challenge.

my other half works for BP and my dad has been in the oil industry (subsea) all his life... deep water is serious tech..

H&S at BP, you are not even allowed to drive your car forwards into a parking space at BP offices not use the stair without using the handrail... and thatis just in the office!

yes the leak is serious and will effect many lives and the environment, but

and at the end of the day the push to secure harder and harder reserves is down to demand for oil, and as such the US as a major consumer of oil and its products is driving that demand.

and BP will survive this - thankfully

How am I directly responsible for what BP do in the USA under American law. What exactly could I have done to prevent this occuring? As far as I can see it is f@ck all and therefore to claim we are all responsible is cr@ppy tabloid hyperbole. You may as well argue I am responsible for the deaths in the Channel Tunnel building as I have been to France.
BP acted within the law and the consequences are dire I doubt BP give a sh1t except for how it affects the bottom lin ewhich is how much money they can make. If they decide this can best be achieved by appearing caring that is what they will do. Companies generally have no morals they have bank balances

Obama stated that he would have Hayward sacked. Why! Explain what other people could have done if they were in charge since the explosion happened??

Yes the BOP failed and shouldn't have but whats done is done. BP im my opinion have stepped up and tried by all means to cap the well. Thsi has never happened before in such deep water so all attempts to stop the oil flow is a complete gamble.

As for safety, BP have the most safety violations, but how big is the company??? Of course they are going to have more safety violations than smaller companies, thats just common sense.

To be perfectly honest its in BP's best interest to get the well capped as soon as possible, not to stop the oil polluting the the sea but because there losing millions a day in lost production and the cost of the clean up.

If Obama thinks he can do a better job, then i would go ahead, what on earth can he do compared to a known operator.

What about the folk that died on the rig when it blew up, kinda forgotten about them now eh. Let BP get on with it without the constant barage of abuse.

I would bet that a lot of people within BP care, and a lot don't. Unfortunately the big boss seems to be in the latter camp. Either that or he's terrible about trying to make people feel better.

If in doubt, patronise or insult.

Great "debating" guys - I hope none of you are lawyers.

Great "debating" guys - I hope none of you are lawyers.

Think most people here put across pretty valid points actually.

Surf-Mat - Member
If in doubt, patronise or insult.

Great "debating" guys - I hope none of you are lawyers.

Ok then Surf-Mat explain what BP could have done better AFTER the BOP and riser failed?

I think a lot of people here are keyboard warriors who just love to try and one up people behind the safety of their keyboards while they try and avoid doing their IT admin jobs.

Ok then Surf-Mat explain what BP could have done better BEFORE the BOP and riser failed?

Edited for you

The way this whole affair is being hyped up on US TV is incredible. CNN in the US (not the international one) when I was there during the 'Top Kill' week was about 95% oil-spill related. They had the live underwater feed permanently on-screen in the bottom right hand corner... And some of the people they were interviewing (including politicians) make Surf-Mat look like BP's biggest advocate. However, interest in it as an issue does seem to be very localised - and even in the gulf region there are plenty of people keeping quiet as the oil industry is a huge employer (bigger than the fishing industry as I understand it).

I particularly liked the Senate member calling for BP to be taken off the job to be replaced by the US military - widely known for their expertise in deep-sea technology.

Yes it's bad, and yes, it would be great if they'd fixed it quicker (and no-one had died), but as others have said we need to keep a sense of perspective on it (unlike the US media...)

Surf-Mat - Member
I think a lot of people here are keyboard warriors who just love to try and one up people behind the safety of their keyboards while they try and avoid doing their IT admin jobs.

I think a lot of people here are keyboard warriors who just love to try and one up people behind the safety of their keyboards while they try and avoid doing their IT admin jobs.

Well we're now well aware that you're not shy of being patronising and generalising either, so now that you're on a level with the people you're moaning about, how do you address the perfectly reasonable points, and what good does bitching about BP on a web forum do anyway?

I think a lot of people here are keyboard warriors who just love to try and one up people behind the safety of their keyboards while they try and avoid doing their jobs, me included

Edited for you

sucked in by the media much ?

Surf-Mat - Member

Ok then Surf-Mat explain what BP could have done better BEFORE the BOP and riser failed?

Edited for you

NO! That is not the issue, there will be an investigation into why the BOP failed and what actually went wrong. What happened before the failure is unknown but the way BP handled after the oil spill is what they are getting a hard time about.

Ok, explain what they could have done before it then?

Ha! I'm currently sitting sorrounded by many engineers who have been in the oil industry for years. Get your facts right! I'm sure I'm not the only on on here that is not in an ADMIN job.

You just lost that debate!

Please everyone list your information sources:

Standard answers include -

I know a few engineers
My uncle works in oil

Hey - perhaps I know people in the oil industry (a rig designer working in engineering for shell, oil industry share traders, etc)? Perhaps I did an engineering degree with a chunk of oil industry content? Perhaps I was a geotec engineer for a while?

Perhaps I don't rely on the media and then use my "opinion" to try and belittle someone else.

There is a theme that runs across all website forums - a few people that love to comment on everything with their well formed "opinions." These people are very sure of themselves or so it appears. But find out a little more and there's always some deep seated issue - a hated job, a problem(s) at home, a issue with health, etc.

I guess as it's the internet it attracts these slightly geeky oddballs. And because it's the internet they can be sure they won't get "found out."

Every forum has them - some even become mods and take it to extremes. They'll find someone that irks them (usually a "doer" that actually gets off his ar5e and does stuff in real life) and argue against everything they say - from dissing their car, to their choice of bike wheel.

Without any exception, these people are a little bit lonely and a little bit sad.

But hey ho, they still pat themselves on the back when they think they've "won" an internet debate argued using a truckload of BS.

you are kaesae and i claim my 5 pound !

There is a theme that runs across all website forums - a few people that love to comment on everything with their well formed "opinions." These people are very sure of themselves or so it appears. But find out a little more and there's always some deep seated issue - a hated job, a problem(s) at home.

Yes, you're falling right into that catagory, well identified!

Surf-Mat you some yourself up perfectly there!

If you have the answers phone BP up I am sure they would be happy to listen to you!

Surf-Mat you some yourself up perfectly there!

As do you - someone that can't spell that complex word "sum."

And ck does the same with his own "version" of the hugely tricky word "category."

LOL at self-pwnage reaching new levels.

And ck does the same with his own "version" of the hugely tricky word "category."

Well spotted mate, indeed I made a typo and you found it, give yourself a gold star and a tick 😉

really clutching at straws trying to insult peoples spelling now. never mind 17 mins and im off to ride instead of talking about it!

Who else in here works in the industry out of interest?

I suspect suirf-mat couldn't even beging to fathom quite how many safety procedures are designed into oil and gas facilities. If the BOP hadn't failed you'd have barely even noticed it. In fact a rig sank in almost identical circumstances of south america erlier this year, the valve closed as it should have done and it didn't even make the evening news.

Just keep digging that hole!!! Its huge now!!

cynic - self ownage? Are you a complete retard? I don't need to ask really do I?

Trail - I've already been for a 12 miles MTB ride and a 5 mile run today. Thanks for asking though you craaaazy "doer."

sand control engineer for a large service company.

me: health & safety advisor for Aker Kvaerner, specialising in fluid transfer systems, particularly LNG. My opinion of/information relating to BP stems from my involvement with them for 5 years, mainly through site inspections and and project design specifics for a variety of topside installations.

you?

While you're all worrying about this, some people need advise about which shaving brush to buy; lets help more and criticise less.....

sorry crikey - dont shave

And the keyboard warriors keep on coming thick and fast...

MS - you're a STUDENT that constantly tries and fails to sell kit. You're opinions are as valid as my own ideas on football tactics.

Yoss - fair enough but your point was immediately questioned and possibly proved wrong by another STWer... Plus you only attempted to "argue" against a single point and conveniently glossed over the rest of the issues. A triumph of selective "debating" and a tactic used by many a forum warrior.

MS - you're a STUDENT

only when hes not working for a large oil company !

🙂
Chill, lads - noone's keeping score.
We all know I'm far more awesome than the lot of you, but it's not my place to judge 😉

Yoss - fair enough but your point was immediately proved wrong by another STWer...

no it wasn't. you need to re-read the thread my dear old thing.

EDIT: I wasn't particularly interested in your other points, so I thought I'd just talk about what I know. HINT HINT 🙄

me: environmental & technical engineering services to the Oil & Gas and Chems & Pharms industries.

Don't do upstream work (ie production), but plenty of work on environmental controls, regulatory permitting and corrective actions in the downstream side (refining, distribution, retail).

Work with the HSE systems for several of the oil majors. They are all very safety obsessive compared to what anyone in a "normal" job would anticipate.

BP's record in the states looks pretty bad over the last few years, its true.

Sorry, have you got the memory of a goldfish?

[b]looks[/b] pretty bad

in the [b]states[/b]

there's a reason for my choice of words, see if you can work them out

as others have fleshed out, there are reasons for both, perhaps you didn't read them?

Mat, let me point out something here. You are the other half of the argument with these so-called forum warriors. So really, you are just the same.

The real trick is to let go, and not get dragged into the mire of slagging people off and trying to score points. It's just not worth it. Keep it happy and let the knobs be wrong. You can be great company as long as you don't get sucked into this stuff 🙂

attacking a student - quite funny really, guess you weren't one then!

FAIL!