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Is it normal to get paid your hourly rate on team building days?
For IR35 purposes I'd question whether hourly-paid employees qualify for teanbuilding-type activities?
I think people need to stop seeing it as 'team building' (I accept I said that in the title but it is clouding the picture). It is a social event which, by definition of getting the team together without the distraction of work, helps build team morale. We are doing it before Christmas and I guess that in a previous life it could be called a Christmas party however, as I have mentioned, our younger workforce don't go for the partying and much prefer a relaxed social event (we have asked and this is universally the case. In the past we have had overnight trips to the Lakes (with walking, team cooking evenings and boating etc) and overnight theatre trips to London but the last two years we have pushed the boat out a bit more to do something more memorable. All our team are happy to do this as an unpaid event as they enjoy it (would you pay people overtime for going to a Christmas Party at the local Best Western)? If people started to ask for overtime or paid leave in lieu (disregarding this one occurrence of the request due to different circumstances) then we would stop doing such events and revert to a more conventional Christmas evening out. Fortunately our team accept that we are genuinely trying to be nice to them and always show genuine gratitude that we do it for them.
It is a social event which, by definition of getting the team together without the distraction of work, helps build team morale.
In which case, if one of your team can't make it on the jolly due to young children, other family commitments, fear of flying, whatever, then it seems a bit harsh to make him/her work when the rest of the team is clearly not working (unless they are taking the Monday as part of their holiday entitlement).
Unless the underlying aim is to penalise them for not being able to join you. I can't imagine the cost of the temp to answer the phones is more than the cost of the travel package for that one person.
In which case, if one of your team can’t make it on the jolly due to young children, other family commitments, fear of flying, whatever, then it seems a bit harsh to make him/her work when the rest of the team is clearly not working (unless they are taking the Monday as part of their holiday entitlement).
Thats my view. It feels like "hard luck chump, get to work" rather than "I'm really sorry you can't experience our trip but in recognition of your contribution to the team and everyones else enjoyment, please go and have nice lunch on us".
I've never gone on one of these types of work trips and come back thinking better of my colleagues. Normally I find I genuinely can't stand 50% of them and the other 50% are just really boring.
In the interests of team morale I avoid these things like the plague now.
It is a social event
In which case, I've changed my mind also. Give them the day off, spin it as "the office is closed on Monday" maybe, but make it clear that this is an exception rather than setting a precedence and the same may not apply next year.
young children, other family commitments, fear of flying, whatever
The reasons are complicated and I would rather not go into them, but it's none of the above and they attended last year.
If it’s a social event then matey should get Monday off the same as the rest of the team.
Normally I find I genuinely can’t stand 50% of them and the other 50% are just really boring.
Aother IT nerd yeah ?
It is a social event which, by definition of getting the team together without the distraction of work, helps build team morale.
Well I’m in the wife will moan but let’s bring it on but can I be in party group not the museum group please.
It would be nice to offer something to the person who can’t make it though.
The reasons are complicated and I would rather not go into them, but it’s none of the above and they attended last year.
ah - so it's your view of their reasons that mean they don't get a day off work alongside everyone else (who's not missing out on the reward trip)?
Kryton57
Now, said employee isn’t entitled to a day off no. But, if they cant attend for personal reasons they are missing out on the reward that the rest of the team is being provided vis a vis you are alienating them and they are missing out on the reward.
It's amazing how many people can't understand this simple point.
The reasons are complicated and I would rather not go into them, but it’s none of the above
I think 'whatever' probably covers most angles. 🙂 Does the employee need a valid reason not to go on what is effectively a three day Christmas party? I can understand the distinction when it was being presented as a teambuilding exercise, ie work-related, but basically you're giving everyone in the office except him/her the day off on Monday.
but basically you’re giving everyone in the office except him/her the day off on Monday.
We are not - they are all available for work during the day (with the exception of when we are flying). For the employee staying back, they are simply being asked to be available to answer phones and triage support tickets which we have said they can also do from home if they prefer.
Fortunately our team accept that we are genuinely trying to be nice to them
You're not being very nice to "can't go/won't go" guy. 😆
You’re not being very nice to “can’t go/won’t go” guy.
He's not. And there probably a "bullying" or "discrimination" HR case right there. The employee is effectively being discriminated based on his/her personal circumstances outside of work hours. As the Milan trip encompasses working hours it is therefore by extension under HR remit and working practise / employee guidelines.
OP should be fired IMO 😉
The employee is effectively being discriminated based on his/her personal circumstances outside of work hours.
They are not being discriminated against - we are asking them to be available for work just as the rest of the team are on the Monday.
It is a social event which, by definition of getting the team together without the distraction of work, helps build team morale.
Now we are getting somewhere.
Its not 'work' its a jolly. Its being called a "Team Building" event to, lets be honest, have the company pay (no problems, good on you for looking after your staff) and with 'creative accounting' write it off for tax reasons (unless I misunderstood this bit? I also think there might be word for this starting with F?)
While you haven't said why they've said they cant go,you have said they cant instead of wont so they are missing out on this social event that the company are paying for, perhaps, for reasons beyond their control?
So the Monday is part of this jolly (not work) yet the staff going aren't expected to use a days leave for travel back? So why should the individual in question.
If I'm correct about those tax purposes I spoke about above, then this weekend is work. Then those going are working the whole weekend and their Monday working day is travelling for company business. This is where the TOIL or O/T issues crop up...
Opinions on a forum don't matter. It needs to be company policy. So write it, stick it in there and be done!
You know, once, I worked for a place where the team would've all happily gone away for a weekend team building/jolly together, cos we all liked each other. Except the boss. We hated the boss.
I'm off for a ride - obviously I'm available for work the entire time, except when I'm out of mobile range. 🙂
Tbh, what should really happen is say to the guy, can you go in cover the Monday, so the travelling staff don't need to be doing the ridiculous thing of trying to cover work while flying home.
Then give the guy the Friday off when everyone is back in the office.
Win/win, actual team work! 😆
They are not being discriminated against – we are asking them to be available for work just as the rest of the team are on the Monday.
Is he allowed to wander around town, have a paid lunch and get pissed on Monday? Genuine question.
So the Monday is part of this jolly (not work) yet the staff going aren’t expected to use a days leave for travel back?
See above - everyone is expected to be available for work on the Monday.
johndoh
See above – everyone is expected to be available for work on the Monday.
That in itself is pretty unreasonable tbh.
we are asking them to be available for work just as the rest of the team are on the Monday.
Does he get to turn off his phone for a nap when everyone else is kipping on the plane?
That in itself is pretty unreasonable tbh.
My thoughts exactly. I'm either in Milan running my own agenda visiting places and have lunch, or I'm expected to work at my laptop. Which is it?
Because if I've had some beers for lunch, or don't take the phone call 'cause I'm visiting a monastery, I can't be working as they would invoke an H&S/Conduct issue.
We are going for a weekend away (travelling back on the Monday whichj will take most of the day)
This says Monday will be travel.
everyone is expected to be available for work on the Monday.
They're all bringing their work laptops? This is starting to sound more like my kind of do!
They are not being discriminated against
Of course not. Be with all the effort and expense you are going to for all the rest of the staff, not offering this one member of staff anything at all is probably not the best way to make them feel as valued as everyone else.
not offering this one member of staff anything at all is probably not the best way to make them feel as valued as everyone else
He offered them the same trip to Milan.
if he/she actually can't go for genuine reasons (health or childcare/relative care etc), then I'd give them the day off on the quiet. if they are just an arse, and don't want to go, then sod them
"Sod them" appears to be the message, for sure.
if he/she actually can’t go for genuine reasons
Would not wanting to spend your valuable time off with people you're forced to interact with 5 days out of every 7 be considered a genuine reason?
Those that are going on the trip are giving up their weekend in return for whatever benefit that might bring in travelling on Monday rather than being in the office.
If the employee cannot or does not want to make it then they don't get any perceived benefit on the Monday as they didn't/couldn't give up the weekend.
That said the whole aim of the game is team building.. Can you reschedule or plan something all can attend?
Twodogs
Subscriber
if he/she actually can’t go for genuine reasons (health or childcare/relative care etc),
How about cup final weekend and I'm off to get rattled? 😆 That genuine?
That said the whole aim of the game is team building.
Ultimately that is the point here. I've already given the perfect solution at the top of the page.
Rest of the team think the guy's great for saving them having to kid on they are working on the Monday. Guy is happy cause he gets the Friday off!
Team building at it's finest! 😆
I have to say seosahm that your suggestion seems a pretty decent one TBF in order that the person doesn't feel unfairly treated. However it won't effect the issue that everyone else would still need to be available to work on Monday in a reasonable capacity as not everyone has the same skills and the person in question is a more junior member who can only triage support requests and answer phones if we don't ask them to perform their normal daily duties whilst the rest of the team are travelling back.
I have to say seosahm that your suggestion seems a pretty decent one TBF in order that the person doesn’t feel unfairly treated. However it won’t effect the issue that everyone else would still need to be available to work on Monday in a reasonable capacity as not everyone has the same skills and the person in question is a more junior member who can only triage support requests and answer phones if we don’t ask them to perform their normal daily duties whilst the rest of the team are travelling back
I thought that might be the case. Think what you do there is just basically turn the guy into a receptionist for the day, and he basically filters out the work that needs attention for your more senior workers/urgent work if possible. Basically use the guy to minimise the interactions you will be needing to have on the way back. Just get him to forward essential work. Whether he's capable of that is obviously up to you to decide.
Seems to me it'll be more beneficial to you, to have him in the office giving his full attention while everyone is away.
Still glad you asked OP?
Think what you do there is just basically turn the guy into a receptionist for the day, and he basically filters out the work that needs attention for your more senior workers/urgent work if possible. Basically use the guy to minimise the interactions you will be needing to have on the way back.
wooah
You're in the shit there, because you asked the guy to spend the date filtering everyone else work while they were away on a paid for jolly. It doesn't matter if they were travelling, because the backlog is caused by their absence from a trip you organised. He's now effectively penalised for not saying yes to spending his own time with his work colleagues, of which he has no obligation to agree to.
Very dodgy ground if he makes a complaint IMO, and if I were him I'd think twice about working for you.
Still glad you asked OP?
Absolutely - this is why I asked the question in the first place. I am 15 years an employer so sometimes find it difficult to see things from an employee point of view despite my best efforts and intentions.
You’re in the shit there, because you asked the guy to spend the date filtering everyone else work while they were away on a paid for jolly.
Most of that is part of their job description though.
Kryton57
Subscriber
Think what you do there is just basically turn the guy into a receptionist for the day, and he basically filters out the work that needs attention for your more senior workers/urgent work if possible. Basically use the guy to minimise the interactions you will be needing to have on the way back.wooah
You’re in the shit there, because you asked the guy to spend the date filtering everyone else work while they were away on a paid for jolly. It doesn’t matter if they were travelling, because the backlog is caused by their absence from a trip you organised. He’s now effectively penalised for not saying yes to spending his own time with his work colleagues, of which he has no obligation to agree to.
Very dodgy ground if he makes a complaint IMO, and if I were him I’d think twice about working for you.
He's getting the Friday off, he'll survive! 😆
It'll be an interesting exercise for the OP to to see how capable the guy is with a wee bit of responsibility!
Well I hope you're happy now
You're actually worse than Hitler
Most of that is part of their job description though.
So we're back to the point that he's actually been given no reward at all, you're just alienating him by forcing him to work and later listen to all the "weekend stories" from his colleagues just to rub it in.
Lol at Binners.