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To my mind the danger here is that whatever you do, it sets a precedence for future events. Whatever you decide now will come back to bite you.
What exactly is the nature of this "event"? If the team will be working all weekend then I'd expect to get that time back as holiday as I'm giving up my weekend for work, and Mr(s) Awkward should be in work as usual. If on the other hand it's a thinly disguised excuse for a two day piss-up on expenses somewhere sunny then there's an argument that the opt-outer should be getting the Monday off. Though even then it's not that they're being excluded from anything, they still have the option to attend the event or go to work and they're making that choice. So maybe the answer to "why should I have to be in work when no-one else is?" is simply "because you're choosing not to take part."
I think if it were me I'd be hiding behind "company policy." It is company policy that employees not taking part in an event are to attend work as normal. Job jobbed and you can't be accused of making things personal.
tjagain
Member
Johndoh – good. ( on the tax ) Then in that case the employee has no right to anything.
No right, correct. But bawbag points go to the boss that deny's the request! 😆
It's not really team building unless everybody goes , more like team dividing . Attendance should be compulsory .
You should make the workshy slacker pick you up at the airport so you can get ****ed on the plane.
I’m gonny declare this team building exercise a failure, as picking on the guy that doesn’t want to join in on the enforced socialisation isn’t really what I’d call team building
IME some of the strongest teams are built around having a common enemy, especially one within... The danger comes when that person leaves...
No, they are asking for *ADDITIONAL* holiday as they feel the others are getting a holiday. They have used this year’s holiday entitlement already.
Ah, nah tell them to sod off, and when they get there, to sod off some more. That's proper cheeky that.
It’s not really team building unless everybody goes , more like team dividing . Attendance should be compulsory .
Something tells me you don't manage people...
Are the personal reasons valid for not going? A wee gesture to him might be nice if he genuinely cannot got rather than does not want to go but its a cheeky request for sure
We are saying they can work from home (and forward the phones to their mobile if they are happy for us to do that) and just do minimal work (ie, just be there to answer calls and triage any client support requests).
Ramsey Neil
Member
It’s not really team building unless everybody goes , more like team dividing . Attendance should be compulsory .
Why, the guy signed up to get paid, not for a social life. 😆
You'd think the idea of the trip was to reward employees. Struggling to really see how punishing this guy for having a life out side of work is a reward.
Do he deserve nothing?
Are the personal reasons valid for not going? A wee gesture to him might be nice if he genuinely cannot got rather than does not want to go
"Personal reasons" are just that, no? Ie, there's no onus on an employee to justify why they cannot work outside of their contracted hours, it's none of the company's business.
The distinction between not wanting to go and being unable to is an interesting one, though. If they really would have loved to attend but cannot due to their circumstances, I can see how they might be a bit miffed that they're having to work when everyone else is having a big party. Adding insult to injury and all that.
johndoh - much as I like to slag off bosses ( 😉 ) then that sounds quite reasonable to me. You could be generous and go further but thats a decent offer.
Not unreasonable to ask them to work as normal if they are not away. However if I was away for a weekend of forced fun and team building I would expect the 2 days back in lieu. Travel back on the Monday would count as a working day as well. Maybe the person, quite reasonably, doesn't want to give up their weekend for work or has other commitments and sees it as a paid jolly for others.
However if I was away for a weekend of forced fun and team building I would expect the 2 days back in lieu.
What ??? Seriously ???? Some of you in this place are either just completely unreasonable or argumentative for the hell of it.
IMO the OP has done nothing at all wrong and i'd tell TJ to bugger off with his accounting questions too, it's none of his sodding business who is or isn't paying tax and how.
That’s not a joke – we had something come round the other day pointing out that enforcing attendance at social events can amount to workplace bulling. You don’t really want to go there!
I'd guess to a lot of people that sounds like a joke, but it's not.
Being forced to do something, especially if it included travel, even more especially international travel with no means of 'escape' under my own steam would have me in a fit of Anxiety.
I really like my Boss, we're mates, I like everyone I work with but if I felt forced to attend something, even as pleasant sounding as a trip to Milan I'd hate it.
At previous jobs I've been made to feel completely insignificant when I've, as politely, privately and as non-confrontational as I possibly can be said I don't want to attend this or that, and won't be. I've been 'called out' in public (well work) for being boring, or ruining it for everyone, had peer pressure poured on me, ultimately because someone wants to force me to do something I don't want to do and I always end up looking like the unreasonable, aggressive one when I get so backed into a corner I lash out (verbally, but it's come close before now).
Attendance should be compulsory .
nope nope nope and nope again in big letters! I would never go on a trip like that. Work is work and my time outside of work is mine. Try to make it compulsory and open a huge bag of worms. Working time directive, contractual stuff. Just do not go there
Effectively the workers are going to be working 80 hours straight and legally would be entitled for a lot of stuff in return if its made compulsory
Wait. I missed you were making the others give up their weekend for team building, yeah bollocks to that unless you’re giving them time back which would be more than 2 days as they can’t go home at the end of the day.
Actually after further consideration just how is this trip going to build and motivate your team?
And can the team not be "built" a bit more locally just to make attendance easier for all?
Or is it really (as I think most of us suspect) a long weekend on expenses dressed up as "team building"?
I take it none of the participants are going to be claiming TOIL despite "working" a full weekend?
Having recently left a company full of expenses piss-takers, there are some familiar patterns...
It’s not really team building unless everybody goes , more like team dividing . Attendance should be compulsory .
The beatings will continue until morale improves?
Weeksy - I was being curious about the tax ( and a bit mischievous) because these sorts of things are clearly taxable benefits but rarely declared. Johndoh could have told me where to go on it and I would not have pressed it. By answering he completely pwned me on it.
I have to say - Johndoh sounds like a decent boss.
Sack him and employ me!
I'm free that weekend and I've got my passport ready.... where are we flying from?
(oh, and what's my new job??)
I missed you were making the others give up their weekend
He's not making anyone do anything, except for asking an employee to work on one of their contracted work days.
I get that.... but i'm still astounded you asked... it seemed very very over the line of personaal information to me.
I take it none of the participants are going to be claiming TOIL despite “working” a full weekend?
If it is not compulsory then its not work as I see it. So no toil etc. Its a jolly the boss is paying for. I would not like to try to argue that is was work as defined in law if they do not have to go.
We are saying they can work from home (and forward the phones to their mobile if they are happy for us to do that) and just do minimal work (ie, just be there to answer calls and triage any client support requests).
Sounds above and beyond to me.
Politely say no, obviously if they're beside themselves at missing out on the trip because of XY or Y you might want to play nice, but I think they're deep into piss-taking territory asking for a free day off.
He’s not making anyone do anything, except for asking an employee to work on one of their contracted work days.
So they’re not doing a team building day over a weekend?
On a more practical level; will somebody be taking a guitar?
Something tells me you don’t manage people…
Something tells me you shouldn't make assumptions .
Drac - if attendance is not compulsory then I would find it hard to argue its "work" Work is not optional.
I'd have to go look into the law a bit more and the surrounding case law but from memory this has been tested in court over attendance at conferences and the like and if you have an opt out its not "work"
Effectively it becomes the same as a works night out. do your guys get time back if they go on the xmas night out?
if I was away for a weekend of forced fun and team building I would expect the 2 days back in lieu.
Too bloody right! If they want to do team building, they can do it on company time. Why should I gift my time and social life so that the company can make more money?
do your guys get time back if they go on the xmas night out?
I doubt many here lower themselves to attend work nights out
Something tells me you don’t manage people…
Something tells me you shouldn’t make assumptions .
I'm right though, aren't I?
Effectively it becomes the same as a works night out. do your guys get time back if they go on the xmas night out?
I’d not expect my staff to do team building on nights out as that would then be work.
Too bloody right! If they want to do team building, they can do it on company time. Why should I gift my time and social life so that the company can make more money?
+1 this. Does 'I'd rather go riding' or even 'I'd rather watch Strictly' count as 'personal reasons'? I suppose if everyone gets on uproariously then a trip to Milan would be nice, but for a couple of offices I've been in, a weekend of teambuilding would be like having your fingernails pulled regardless of it being in a fancy location or the local Best Western.
Absent colleague still needs to roll in on Monday as per normal though.
If it is not compulsory then its not work as I see it. So no toil etc. Its a jolly the boss is paying for. I would not like to try to argue that is was work as defined in law if they do not have to go.
You said it was "team building" before, isn't that work (optional or otherwise)?
So now they're not working (but they're 'on call'), the company is paying travel and other expenses... WTF are you lot actually doing in Milan?
I'd like to see you argue it's not a BIK or additional remuneration for you and your team (apart from one poor sod)...
If its not compulsory then its not work. Its as simple as that IMO
A team building event that you have to attend - then yes its work with all the legal requirements that entails. If you can choose not to go then its simply a jolly organised and paid for by the boss. Same as a works night out.
Is the individual habitually awkward or is it a one-off?
Do you suspect they just didn't wnana go? (which is totally fine, obvs)
Anyway, good compromise you've reached I think.
paid for by the boss
What personally out of his/her pocket?
Assuming Saturday and Sunday are non working days then those not going should be in work Monday. If anything those going should get paid or time off in lieu for working on non working days. 2 days team building is definitely working
If its not compulsory then its not work. Its as simple as that IMO
If it’s team building it’s work related. Unless this just all a ploy for a bender in Milan?
ignoring the contractual bits.
if you are prepared to fund the trip, and write off how ever many man days for the travel back on the monday, then what is the impact of giving the non-attendee the the monday off? financially **** all, but in terms of long term motivation of that staff member it'll cost you way more than than giving them a day off will.
Take it you have a lone worker policy if billy no mates is at work alone on the Monday
<stares longingly>
I miss the paid for ski trips and me plus one holidays to Hawaii and Jamaica.
</stares longingly>
Sounds awful - big bunch of spineless suckups going to Milan with the boss on a pointless weekend. I'm with the one who has the nerve to say no to this "yes boss, sure thing, whatever you say!" tosh. However, they also need a good long look at themselves - the whole office is away..... that's a day off in itself.