[Closed] Am I being unreasonable? Employee wanting holiday in lieu of teambuilding event

Is what unreasonable?

Demanding an extra holiday or asking someone to work on one of their normal work days?

the monday would be a normal work day for them - why wouldnt it be thats a stretch for them to think anything otherwise.

the weekend - unless you normally work weekends/they are rota'd in over the weekend then that would be unreasonable to expect them to be in just because your all off on a jolly.

I'd say you're right. If they don't attend the team building then it's a normal work day.

However they are asking for a holiday because everyone else is off.

Is the issue. They're not off, you are choosing that their work day will be spent travelling and paying them for it.
RM.

Fair on your part.
Team building days are still work days, even if it's not doing normal work.
I#d be more like to to ask for holiday if I was attending and giving up my weekend in truth.

They should work as normal even if on their own. Still sounds 100x better than a teambuilding weekend away.

Is what unreasonable?

Are we being unreasonable to expect them to attend work as normal is the question. I think not personally but was interested how others (especially people from the 'employee' perspective).

Are we being unreasonable to expect them to attend work as normal is the question

Absolutely not.

You should bag the ungrateful cur.

Still sounds 100x better than a teambuilding weekend away.

Well it's a trip to Milan sightseeing, eating and drinking etc - we won't be building rafts in a disused quarry in Wales. 🙂

Hmmm, I feel like you're only providing half the picture.

So if this person came with you on you're jolly, who'd be covering the office? Does the office need covering? and if not does their presence (or lack of) affect the organisation/capability?

No, you are not being unreasonable. The Monday is a normal work day.
If a member of staff goes away to a meeting for example and then due to distance spends the next day travelling back, do the rest of the workforce get a day off?
It's the same principle. The team building event is 'work'.

Is he asking for holiday out of his holiday entitlement or extra?

If he is just asking to take one of his usual paid days leave on that day not unreasonable. If he is asking for an extra paid days leave then unreasonable

However I do hope you are declaring the jolly away to milan as a paid perk for tax 😉

Hmmm, I feel like you’re only providing half the picture.

I don't believe I am - what are you suspicious of?

Not unreasonable to ask them to be at work after all it’s a work day but would be such a ball ache to just give them the days holiday.

You should also write this down on their employment record to illustrate that they're an idiot who can't grasp simple concepts.

Is he asking for holiday out of his holiday entitlement or extra?

Extra as they see it as everyone elsehaving a day off.

However I do hope you are declaring the jolly away to milan as a paid perk for tax

Yes it gets accounted as 'staff entertaining' in the accounting software 😉

So if this person came with you on you’re jolly, who’d be covering the office? Does the office need covering? and if not does their presence (or lack of) affect the organisation/capability?

That would be my issue, if I was the employee. If no one would be in the office if you were all on the jolly, why does someone have to be there if they aren’t on the jolly. As you say, the rest of the office would be ‘on call’, so you’d have cover anyway, no different to if everyone was in the office, and that one person wanted the day off.

I’d also speculate that the Monday probably won’t be that persons most productive day of the year, so better to let them use a days holiday...

Edit: ah, seen they want extra hols. No, take it out of the standard entitlement.

It depends on if the trip is a thank you for all their hard work ( I assume a trip to Milan site seeing is). Then if it is and the person genuinely can't go for personal reasons then why not thank them by letting them have the Monday off.

I agree its a work day and they should not assume they should get it off, but you have the opportunity to have a happy employee or a unhappy one. I guess it depends on if you think they deserve a reward or not.

Not unreasonable to expect employee to go to work.

Not sure about the team building event. I am not keen of many of my colleagues though! Boss is ok ironically!

Normal work day...but if they want a holiday then it comes off their holiday allowance. So if they have holiday time to take then let them.

My business partner makes the good point that if we gave them a day's holiday then the next time we do something similar any amount of other team members might decide they would prefer a day off to do their own thing rather than join in.

If I didn't normally work the weekend and I went on a team building trip, I'd want holiday credits for the weekend, one of which could be offset against travelling back on Monday if I was not going to touch any work at all on Monday (same for Friday if we were heading out that day).

If worker staying behind then works Monday, if that's a normal day for them, they hold the fort as best they can until normality resumes on Tuesday.

I think its cheaky for them to be asking for the time off (unless its out of their holiday allowance)

Not unreasonable to expect them to be at work on Monday imo.

Our team building days have a late start/early finish, free lunch, cakes, go-karting, archery etc.. But 2 or 3 people out of 100 or so choose not to go (the sort of people who'd benefit most from team building 😉 ) and they go to work "as normal", though nobody really checks their hours or what they are doing.

employee has chosen not to go for personal reasons so we have asked them to go into work as normal.

This is fine, the team building thing is still technically working, so they are not entitled to a free holiday if they can't attend.

Assuming normal work is Monday to Friday, they should book leave for the Monday or work as normal.

Johndoh

Are the employees going to be paying tax on it tho?

Extra holiday - nope.

Team building days are still work days

Often they are worse than work days. Though ringfencing unicorns in Milan may just tip into the positive.

Are the employees going to be paying tax on it tho?

Yes, I account for it like that then the company accountants deals with the ££££

what are you suspicious of?

From my perspective I think there's a lack of clarity on the actual circumstances.
You have an employee requesting annual leave (to which I presume they are entitled) on a day that happens to coincide with the rest of their team being out of the office, and you're denying that request on what grounds?

Reading between the lines it's simply because they don't want to come on a trip to Milan with their colleagues instead?

If their presence in the office is of critical importance why are you proposing to whisk them off to Italy in the first instance? if it isn't what is your basis for denying their leave request?
Would their productivity be likely to be improved or reduced by the absence of the rest of the team?

You claim those of you on the "team building exercise" will "all be ‘on-call’ should we need to deal with client work" so again what critical business need is met by denying a leave request?

This always used to happen with work events held during office hours, there was always some miserable bugger that didn't want to go, and wanted a day off instead.

It was usually the same person that, when presented with a Christmas present/Easter egg from the company would always say "I would rather have had the money" or similar.

Tell them to do one.

Give them the day off ya miserable sod. 😆

You have an employee requesting annual leave

No, they are asking for *ADDITIONAL* holiday as they feel the others are getting a holiday. They have used this year's holiday entitlement already.

so again what critical business need is met by denying a leave request

They can answer the work phone (which we would have been paying a temp. for had they come with us).

Assuming that Saturday and Sunday are non-working days, I think its a bit unreasonable to expect people to give-up their weekends for a team building event. Will you be giving the other folk a couple of days off in lieu?

Duraglit.

Guess I disagree with most people here, but if this trip away was intended as any kind of reward I think you should at least consider giving them the day off if they aren't going. Balanced against whether you actually need them working that day, and whether they're a good employee you want to retain.

Are they less than 2 years in the job ? If so time to go .

I'm gonny declare this team building exercise a failure, as picking on the guy that doesn't want to join in on the enforced socialisation isn't really what I'd call team building! 😆

From my perspective I think there’s a lack of clarity on the actual circumstances.

From your perspective perhaps...From everybody else's it's pretty clear I reckon!

 

Why don't they want to go to Milan with you?
Has Tracy/Tariq/Trevor from accounts upset them?

Ahhhhh, Fair enough.
Sorry it wasn't immediately clear from your initial posts, I think some had understood that the employee was requesting an additional day of annual leave (bit cheeky TBH).
While I (incorrectly) assumed they were requesting part of their leave allowance because the office would be empty...

In that case I'd say you're being reasonable OP, perhaps suggest they can use their existing annual leave allowance if they want the day off, but of course they're not getting extra holiday simply for not participating in a company jolly...

Johndoh - good. ( on the tax ) Then in that case the employee has no right to anything. Are the personal reasons valid for not going? A wee gesture to him might be nice if he genuinely cannot got rather than does not want to go but its a cheeky request for sure

My 2p.

Monday is a normal working day, if I was in employees shoes I'd be sat in the office billy because my leave days are precious to me.

If however they want to take a takes Holiday out of their allowance, it's up to you to decide (within reason) if they can - after all, it's perhaps not a bad idea as you'd accepted you'd be effectively closed anyway.

If they want a 'free' day off just because everyone else is, then they can jog on.

I can be a belligerent ****er though, I don't care if 'team building' is all the fun of the fayre, if you want my company, you'd be paying for it.

picking on the guy that doesn’t want to join in on the enforced socialisation isn’t really what I’d call team building!

That's not a joke - we had something come round the other day pointing out that enforcing attendance at social events can amount to workplace bulling. You don't really want to go there!

Agree with Kelron and seosamh