[Closed] All those wingeing about public sector workers and pensions

Seriously??

Enfit - I do hope you don't use any public services

Absolutely seriously

Oh dear. Stop shouting at people and listen to what they have to say. I don't have the inclination to repeat what has been said many times before.

In essence this government's assumption that growth would happen at the same time as their over zealous, ideologically driven cuts campaign has proven to be wrong. And that is hurting a lot of people, not just those in the private sector. I'm leaving it at that as I need to finish marking my year 11's mock exams, which is harder work than usual due to a recently broken wrist that is going to be pinned next week. Fancy that eh, one of the lazy ****less public sector types working at the weekend...

enfht - Member

Nail on head Drac

22 years ago

You're not 16 ? 😯

BTW enfht, how about [u]you[/u] explain why austerity during the present economic climate would work. Name one country where austerity is helping to get them out of an economic mess/global recession.

Go on, do it ....... since you apparently think cuts are such a good idea.

And to help you answer that question, here's an article in the Daily Telegraph showing how well cuts in the UK are working :

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8905600/David-Cameron-our-plan-to-cut-debt-is-failing.html ]David Cameron: our plan to cut debt is failing[/url]

Quote :

[i]"The warning comes as the global economy stands on the brink of a “chronic” debt-driven recession."[/i]

Why isn't it working ?

+1

My daughter is an newly qualified teacher. Interestingly, many of her work colleagues are looking at what they are doing as supporting her. Its her future that is being messed with, not so much theirs. I mean shes got £000's pounds of debt round her neck that they didn't have, shes having to deal with a very different contractual terms and conditions that they didn't have and her terms of employment look like being substantially worse then her colleagues, especially in respect of her pension. On top of that she is having to work way harder than they did at a similar stage in their career due to the asinine way that education is run. currently she leaves for work (which is 10minutes away) before 7:00am in the morning, and gets home after 7:00pm at night. She rarely has a weekend where she isn't doing something school related like marking or lesson plans. So to be honest I'm at a bit of a loss to understand all the comments along the lines of the "cotton wool brigade".
Personally I've rarely had a negative experience of a public servant, most especially once I've taken the time to understand their situation and constraints. Bit amazed by how many posters on here seem to not have had a similar outlook

Not taking sides in the overall argument but:

Why isn't working ?

The severity of the collapse of Europe may be having some impact???? No one had that in their "official" numbers. No surprise really given that politicians are rarely ahead of economic developments!

So to be honest I'm at a bit of a loss to understand all the comments along the lines of the "cotton wool brigade".

They read the Daily Mail 💡

The severity of the collapse of Europe may be having some impact???? No one had that in their "official" numbers. No surprise really given that politicians are rarely ahead of economic developments!

Excellent ! Initially we were told by the present government that we were in a mess purely because of the last government's policies......"the mess Labour left us". It had nothing to do with the global recession/credit crunch/external factors. Now all of a sudden this governments failures are all down to the Eurozone crises/external factors !

Yes, the world, including the Eurozone, is in a mess. Now is [i]not[/i] the time for cuts. The LibDems even fought the last general election on a "no cuts now" platform, and people voted accordingly. But Danny Alexander says we must have cuts now.

Time for a new government I reckon. This shower have proved to be both incompetent and liars.

[i]This shower have proved to be both incompetent and liars.[/i]

Well knock me down with a feather, shave my head and call me a baldy, I'll go to the foot of our stairs, Politicians in not quite doing what they said they would shocker!

It's enough to make us all cynic-al.

Politicians in not quite doing what they said they would shocker!

What do you mean "not quite" ? 😕

The LibDems are pursuing policies which [i]diametrically[/i] opposed to the policies which they fought the last general election on.

Why do you think their support has collapsed ? Even though they have now overcome the "not a serious party of government" stigma, which blighted their chances for so many years.

Berm Bandit... firstly well put and secondly tell her it will get better, is she doing primary or secondary?

PS. Cant wait to post on here on wednesday.. oh how the piss will boil. 😆

Ernie - I have some sympathy with your points even if I do not agree with the conclusions. There is an annoying habit in politics for Labour to blame the bankers (conveniently forgetting their role in regulation, encouraging excess leverage etc) and for the Tories to blame Europe. Not quite that simple really, is it.

But I am not defending the Tories (as I agree that Plan A is too restrictive) but equally its hard to deny that we have bu$$er all chance of getting out of recession quickly without a resolution to the European crisis. So for that I WILL cut the Tories some slack. For their inability to think of, and execute, a Plan B I WILL NOT.

Sorry, I should have said the coalition, but I keep forgetting about the other lot!!

There is an annoying habit in politics for Labour to blame the bankers (conveniently forgetting their role in regulation, encouraging excess leverage etc)

Does Labour blame the bankers ? ...... I don't think I've ever heard them do that, not senior Labour politicians anyway. I've always assumed that it was because they were embarrassed by their own failure to regulate them.

I, blame the bankers though.

And New Labour.

.....but mostly the bankers.

My thinking is that as usual the Unions have already agreed a deal with the government, but they have to be seen to be protecting the rights of the workers. Once they've had there days strike the deal will be announced and no one loses too much face, plus the government gets what it wants and the Union reps keep getting their big fat salaries.

and the Union reps keep getting their big fat salaries.

Union reps get big fat salaries ? Since when ?

Just out of interest which nhs staff are striking??

Doctors and nurses arent, and our pensions are being shafted too!

Headfirst, there's no money. Do you get it? I don't want my grandchildren to fund your unsustainable gravy train.

Bum Bandit, I worked 60 hours this week, more than 20 of which was unpaid because sometimes this is necessary for the greater good. I know I'll see the reward in the long term.

Ernie, I'll elaborate all you want AFTER you either admit or deny you're a closet Marxist.

You lot are utterly deluded.

I worked 60 hours this week, more than 20 of which was unpaid because sometimes this is necessary for the greater good. I know I'll see the reward in the long term.

Bless.

Shouldn't you be saying that about Bum Bandits daughter?

currently she leaves for work (which is 10minutes away) before 7:00am in the morning, and gets home after 7:00pm at night. She rarely has a weekend where she isn't doing something school related like marking or lesson plans

FYI enhft I've just reported your posts.
"Bum Bandit" !!??

What are? 12?

Of course I'm not a closet Marxist. I'm perfectly open about my Marxist views. In fact, I would be mortified if anyone thought I wasn't a Marxist. Having said that, I've always thought that only Marx himself could call himself a Marxist - no one can possibly agree with everything one person says. I certainly don't, and that includes Marx.

Right, now elaborate .........why are the cuts such a good idea ?

I'm all ears.

FYI enhft I've just reported your posts.

FFS, don't get him banned - I want to hear why the cuts are such a good idea.

I would be seriously disappointed if he was let off the hook.

There's no money me old Marxist mucker

Right, now elaborate why its OK to put future generations into massive debt?

Ernie a closet marxist? I don't believe ernie knows where the closet is 🙂

Enfit - there is plenty of money - its all about how you want to alocate it. A few people have grabbed most of it.

Id like to apologise about the bum bandit incorrect translation, I thought "berm" meant he was French

enfht -

Right, now elaborate why its OK to put future generations into massive debt?

Public sector pensions won't do this. Bankers adn other stealing allteh money might. Tescos and the like avoid tax might. Public sector pensions - affordable and sustainable

There's no money me old Marxist mucker

Is that it ???????? 😯

Hahahahahahahaha 😀

You really haven't got a clue, have you ?

Well at least that's one thing sorted out.....not that there was ever any doubt of course.

I had just hoped that you might have made more of an effort. Still, never mind eh.

Tagnut Jangler, why the NO CUTS placards?

ok maybe reps was the wrong term,although I call them reps. Most negotiations that we get sight of have attendance of fairly high paid individuals they are only concerned with their own egos. Not the workers they represent.

Yes, Ernie that's it. Your ilk just wrap it up into whatever reason fits your failed politics

Still, never mind eh

Now you just sound like the ElfBoy. Shame on you.

Shouldn't you be saying that about Bum Bandits daughter

Why, has she also started shouting at randoms in the street?

In your head notsorichnowpenny

You really should give up trying to make 'funny' alternative names for people, you're not very good at it.

Most negotiations that we get sight of have attendance of fairly high paid individuals they are only concerned with their own egos.

Well I guess that UNISON's general secretary must be among the highest paid trade unionist, he's on £90k. Which of course an excellent wage. And it does reflect the fact that his job involves representing 1.3 million people.

No self-respecting NHS executive would accept such pittance however, for them, you're looking at £1k [i]per day.[/i]

Can the NHS afford that btw ?

Heh, I've actually clocked up some pretty decent pay rises in the last few years. And that's without having to work for free, sucker 🙂

I am struggling with "Lifer" to be honest

The clues in the word "sucker" so don't feel you need to explain how

Heh, I've actually clocked up some pretty decent pay rises in the last few years. And that's without having to work for free, sucker

PMSL !

enfht - Member
There's no money me old Marxist mucker
Right, now elaborate why its OK to put future generations into massive debt?
POSTED 3 MINUTES AGO #

Er.. Where did they find the money for this then?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-politics-15878796

Umm, and this?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/education-15901118

So, managed to find what, £1.6 billion?? And in such austere times too!
Prob noooothing to do with the fact is a Tory headline policy or one of the things in the coalition deal that was needed to form a government eh?
Seriously though Enfht, if you were told your monthly wages were being docked by £100 a month (for example) and that you'd also need to work for longer each day, and your salary would be £150 less in total. You'd be happy with that??

 

So Ernie - is that you out of the closet now? was it one you built yourself?

Sorry bout the quoting there! Thought I had the hang of it.

Another in denial, so you think we're NOT in too much debt?

You could get a different job instead of trying to crush your employer who I fund.

Next?

Sorry bout the quoting there! Thought I had the hang of it.

You need a slash in the second quote...........

TJ, maybe it was a workers cooperative that built it?
Seriously,don't see what the major issue is if he's a Marxist? We all have our own philosophies and beliefs on how we live our lives..
Respecting others opinions whether or not I agree with them is prob one of them. Unlike some other folk on here.

Failed bid for a perceived Moral Highground. You must think these strikes are "polite"

Ahh, cheers Ernie.
Enfht, I do think we're spending more as a nation than we should. Not in denial (as you put it) of anything thanks.
I would like you to postulate as to how the govt managed to find the £1.6 billion for the two initiatives noted above if we're so skint tho.
Btw, you're not coming across very well on this. But you prob know that already.

What now? Failed? Only failed if I was trying to achieve something, I'm just responding to your posts in the spirit of the debate.
Jeezo, it's Saturday night for petes sake. No need tobe so pleasant!

Edit: you haven't provided any responses to
my points above btw..

Seriously,don't see what the major issue is if he's a Marxist?

People who are incapable of providing a coherent argument rely instead on slapping labels on people, and then pointing an excusing finger at them. Apparently that's all that is required.

The classic and probably most widely used example of this is the semi-literate rednecks in the US who accuse their president of being a Marxist.

Mcboo on here also has a tendency to do it, when he can't think of anything to say.

You should all spare a thought for whoever else may have to use enfht's spittle-flecked keyboard and stop winding the poor chap up.

Still, luckily for comedy you'll all do no such thing.

Enfht- think you've already made your feelings on the strikes pretty clear.. Don't think there's much point me telling you my perspective on them, is there?

I haven't looked at your links because this is your "proof" that we aren't in too much debt and still have money in the pot.

Che didn't debate, he murdered

You seem somewhat confused Ernest?

Astoundingly, someone on Any Answers made a very good point re' the strike, which was that maybe some of those in the public sector might have been a bit more willing to "take one for the team", had those dishing out the medicine been seen to have done anything themsleves to show that "we are all in this together"

Currently MPs get a pension based on 3/80ths of final salary per year's service as opposed to 1/80th that most people get get + of course they get a ton of support when they are voted out (a nice golden handshake that perfectly demonstrates the "rewards for failure" culture). True they are currently having their salary and conditions "reviewed", but maybe it would have been a good idea to have doen that first, before asking the teachers to do their bit. Maybe then there wouldn't be quite so much resentment?

Also, @THM who said

There is an annoying habit in politics for Labour to blame the bankers

As per the MPs - it's not just the anger at what the bankers did, but at the total lack of contrition since and the fact that to all intents and purposes they have gone back to "business as usual".

Nope, not "proof" of anything really. Just links to the stories on the BBC, that's all..
I'm just asking you to explain why, if as a country we're so skint and need to make such deep and far reaching cuts (etc.) how the coalition can manage to find 1.6 billion squid to fund new initiatives??
That's it, not trying to catch you out, or score points or even mock you (that seems to be your thing).. I'd just like an answer..

You really don't think we're skint do you.

Are you "rich" according to your credit card, is that why you don't grasp the concept of deficit?

You really don't think we're skint do you.
Are you "rich" according to your credit card, is that why you don't grasp the concept of deficit?

Anyway, fed up feeding the troll..
Armageddon outa here!

What makes you assume I even support the spending you mention?

I'll trip trap off too

Night night ladies xx

^^^ You see ? Typical public servant.....no respect for the hard-pressed taxpayers what pay their wages. Shocking.

HA HA HA HAAAAAA!

😆

Well that was fun.. Glad I walked away for a bit..
Er.. Is he/she like that all the time?

Clegg's £1bn is a sham, it's just a poorer version of the Future Jobs Fund that the coalition scrapped. Does that count as a U-turn? If so I'll add it to the list.

althepal - Member
Well that was fun.. Glad I walked away for a bit..
Er.. Is he/she like that all the time?

POSTED 4 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Who; Ernie? sometimes.

😀

[url= http://thoughcowardsflinch.com/2011/11/26/why-did-the-bbc-lie-about-cleggs-youth-contract/ ]The figures behind Clegg's 'Youth Contract'[/url]

t seems likely that the overall budget of £1bn has been chosen by the government in order to mirror the last government’s £1bn Future Jobs Fund

enfht - Member

You could get a different job instead of trying to crush your employer who I fund.

The problem is they couldn't get a job in the private sector. No one will have them and they'd have to work for a living.

My wife works for the civil service and we had a bit of food poisoning over the weekend, on Monday I went out to work (pubic sector) keeping a very close eye on where the toilets were, she had 2 days off sick.

She only had the 2 days off because if she went in ill she would have been riduculed by those around here and her bosses, who are always off sick.

...instead of trying to crush your employer who I fund.

You see with that one line all Public Sectors will be staring opened mouth at their computer screens. I can't believe people come out with that line. Do they think that public sector workers work tax free and have tax free spendings too.

DoctorNick, Ambulance A+E staff are working to rule which suits me as I'd not take full industrial action, sorry Ernie, because of the service I provide.

The problem is they couldn't get a job in the private sector. No one will have them and they'd have to work for a living.

[s]Oh Christ another one. Yeah yeah that's right I've done nothing this week, I've gone to work and skived hidden away just let people forget they called for an Ambulance.[/s]

Awww! Crap I really must read all the post.

I'm probably 2 days late, and my opinion is either going to be a rep-eat of some one else or ignored, but heres my 5 cents.....

What people seem to fail to realise is that the pensions given to the public sector, were given in a time of growth by a Labour government, assuming that the growth was going to continue. We are now in a time where the growth is much slower (having come from a recession (or are we still in it?)) so the 'guarantees' made by a previous government are worthless and irrelevant.

I've worked in both sectors BTW (not that it matters)....

What people seem to fail to realise is that the pensions given to the public sector, were given in a time of growth by a Labour government

Oh dearie me.

My wife works for the civil service and we had a bit of food poisoning over the weekend, on Monday I went out to work ([b]pubic[/b] sector) keeping a very close eye on where the toilets were, she had 2 days off sick.

😯

What people seem to fail to realise is that the pensions given to the public sector, were given in a time of growth by a Labour government

You think the pension arrangements were put in place in 1997?

Also worked in both sectors. I now (in the NHS) have to work longer/harder to get paid less, but have slightly more security.

I'm sure there are jobs in both the private + public sector which allow you to put your feet up, but you have to go up into middle management to find anyone in our health board who isn't grafting hard. Frontline services have been squeezed allot over the last couple of years.

The NHS pension scheme is a net contributor to the treasury.

What people seem to fail to realise is that the pensions given to the public sector, were given in a time of growth by a Labour government

Must try harder.

Was more referring to Enfht.. Wonder what that stands for..
Yeah Drac, I had a nice quiet night.. Spent 45 min shovelling food down myself cos I wasn't sure if the phone was about to ring, oh aye, and about 11 and a quarter hours dealing with the sick, the needy, and the drunks..
Horrible night to be out too!
Guess I'm lucky to still have a job at all!! Glad about Wednesday, I share your sentiments regarding the whole thing. I am a bit worried about there being some conflict between us and control tho.. See how it goes I guess.
Getting back on topic, were the pensions not reviewed four years ago when things were starting to go downhill?
And is it not the case that the gvmt takes about 2 billion (yep, billion I think it was?) revenue off the top of our Nhs pension fund every year to go into the public purse and folk are still moaning that we're not paying our way, never mind our contributions?
Hmmph, I'm off to bed, gotta go out again tonight so prob need some sleep!

The NHS pension scheme is a net contributor to the treasury.

Can you explain that?

Because that phrase makes it sound like they (the pension/Treasury whatever) pay out less than they take in. So either

1) Individuals get out less than they put in, so where's the sense in paying into it?

2) They are taking more in from current [i]employees[/i] than they are paying out to current [i]pensioners[/i], but that doesn't automatically mean that the current employees are paying enough to cover the cost of their own pensions. Which is the crux of the issue is it not?

Thanks

(Genuine query BTW, not saying you're wrong, it just isn't wholly clear to me).