[Closed] All those wingeing about public sector workers and pensions

I found quite the opposite when I worked for the NHS, travel and overnights were scrutinised fiercely, in fact it was too much and quite a pain in the arse.

To be fair, it is quite rare for them to come to us

The turning up 'mob handed' statement still stands mind and I've not seen a PP presentation for a few years now 🙂

My experience of the NHS (over 12 years) was gross but easily recifiable inefficiency.

When I started training as a nurse in the mid nineties I worked weekends at a BUPA hospital; everytime we changed a dressing it had to be costed- how many swabs, how many saline pods etc so a precise costing could be given to the patient.

When I left the NHS in 2008 it was still the case that ward nurses knew very little of the cost of anything they used, a requesition was filled in and things arrived.

When I began working for a major wound care company I subsequently found out that a dressing we routinely cut in half on ICU when the right size wasn't available cost £60, so that was £30 wasted there and then (once opened dressings become unsterile and useless to others).

While I'm not suggesting nursres become accountants, I never really saw waste being taken seriously in the NHS with regards to those who actually accounted for a large portion of it.

Flame away

Ben - weird because back in the 90s we went to individual ward budgetting with costs of everything available and known - indeed the process started in the 80s.

I certainly knew where to get the price of everything from and we had comparisons of spending between wards in the early 90s.

When I left the NHS in 2008 it was still the case that ward nurses knew very little of the cost of anything they used, a requesition was filled in and things arrived.

When I began working for a major wound care company I subsequently found out that a dressing we routinely cut in half on ICU when the right size wasn't available cost £60, so that was £30 wasted there and then (once opened dressings become unsterile and useless to others).

Why would, or even should, a nurse give one consideration of the cost of a swab or dressing, or anything for that matter? This is the job of managers. If I was to be unfortunate to find myself in ITU I would like to think the staff there would use whatever they have, and not be constantly thinking "mmm, this costs a bit more than that one, should I use it or not???"

Flame away

OK.

Despite your own personal research in the matter, extensive research by others has shown that the British NHS is one of the most cost efficient healthcare system in the world. And in fact private healthcare provisions in the US are the least cost efficient in the world.

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services ]NHS among developed world's most efficient health systems, says study[/url]

[i]"Not only was the UK cheaper, says the paper, it saved more lives. The NHS reduced the number of adult deaths a million of the population by 3,951 a year – far better than the nearest comparable European countries. France managed 2,779 lives a year and Germany 2,395."[/i]

A little more research required on your part maybe ?

TJ, I wouldn't dispute that band 6 and ward managers, those involved in the ordering process, were aware of costs and made attempts to save money through product choice.

I'm talking about staff nurses being unaware of the cost of products and how seemingly small things, a dressing dropped here and there, sterile gloves, poor selection of NIV mask at £60 a time, very quickly add up

A little more research required on your part maybe ?

I've not done any research Ernie, I'm talking about experiences, things I saw with my own eyes.

And I'm not slating the NHS, I'm saying it could be more efficient than it is

I've not done any research Ernie

Ah, that explains it then.

Here's another research from a year earlier :

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10375877 ]UK health system is top on 'efficiency', says report[/url]

Probably best to go by the opinions of those who have researched the subject rather than those who haven't ?

Ben - thats down to poor management locally. The information was available and was used where I worked right down the levels. Indeed cost controls were tight

Cheers for a sensible response TJ

Probably best to go by the opinions of those who have researched the subject rather than those who haven't ?

Ernie, is there a particular reason that my 12 years in the NHS and the things I observed are not valid in your eyes?

Well yes, because you haven't, by your own admission, done any research into the matter.

Your "could be more efficient" claim is a complete red herring. Is there a single area of human activity where there [i]couldn't[/i] be any improvements ? I can't think of any.

Your "could be more efficient" claim is a complete red herring. Is there a single area of human activity where there couldn't be any improvements ? I can't think of any.

Drinking beer in the Speedwell Bar.

I hate all this bickering.
I hate the idea that people are going on strike when negotiations are on-going, I would have liked to have seen the strike called once there was some final agreement made, not before, a kind of pre-emptive strike strike.

A school near me has had the teachers go on strike because they are switching to an academy and they fear there might be changes to their contracts.
Surely its best to see what any changes are before going on strike.

I think the whole situation is reminiscent of the 70's and the end result of all that is a few years later a new government comes in and is set on an agenda of breaking union power.
I see if this carries on a future conservative government coming in hell bent on breaking the public setor unions.

I would have liked to have seen the strike called once there was some final agreement made

I've never heard of a strike being called after an agreement had been reached. What's the idea of that then ?

I've never heard of a strike being called after an agreement had been reached. What's the idea of that then ?

If you call a strike that affects other people then you are not going to be highly thought of and all apathy will be eroded.

In general the issue for most non governmental workers come back to the pension arrangements as everyone pays for them. I am a company accountant and I have worked on final/defined benefit schemes and when you review them you sit back and say 'shit iceberg right ahead'. If we do not grasp then nettle now we will be crippled in generations ahead.

Basically, I dont see the point of going on strike when you dont know what the final offer is.
As there is an on going negotiation I find the strike is premature

So people shouldn't go on strike until they've agreed the terms of whatever they're striking against?

That's as good as the 'unions should be impartial' rubbish on the other thread!

No what Im saying is that whilst youre negotiating a deal I dont think you should be going on strike, its not helping matters and simply entrenches both sides.
Same as government saying thats the last offer etc, none of it helps and just enflames the problem.
If negotiations break down and the "final offer" is unacceptable then you have something to consider whether you want to accept it or not and go on strike.

The government has been attacking the public sector since it came to power, and then criticising any defense. I'm surprised strike action has taken this long.

I think its fair to say that ernie is in an argumentative mood.

Despite the fact I saw repeated acts that 'I' deemed as being wasteful, because I failed to write a research paper on them my experiences are null and void, apparently inadmissible in a discussion.

Is there a single area of human activity where there couldn't be any improvements ?

No there isn't, and that is why despite your paper showing the NHS to be very efficient, it could be more so; that is not a 'red herring'.

Basically, I dont see the point of going on strike when you dont know what the final offer is.
As there is an on going negotiation I find the strike is premature

I think you'll find then that the first offer will be the final offer.

When I began working for a major wound care company I subsequently found out that a dressing we routinely cut in half on ICU when the right size wasn't available cost £60, so that was £30 wasted there and then (once opened dressings become unsterile and useless to others).

Given the number of dressings used in hospitals, might it not be cheaper to buy a lot of the biggest dressings and cut them to size rather than smaller numbers of the small, medium and large? I work in a clinical department, and that's what we do. It's cheaper, which is why we do it.

the first offer is very rarely the final offer, as has been seen already the government has moved from its initial position.

Given the number of dressings used in hospitals, might it not be cheaper to buy a lot of the biggest dressings and cut them to size rather than smaller numbers of the small, medium and large? I work in a clinical department, and that's what we do. It's cheaper, which is why we do it.

That would have been seen as an infection control issue; once a sterile package is opened and not used immediately you cannot guarantee its sterility at a later date.

If an infection occured and a root cause analysis was carried out, were it to be found the the dressing had been opened on day x but then used y number of days later that would an issue.

Your "could be more efficient" claim is a complete red herring. Is there a single area of human activity where there couldn't be any improvements ? I can't think of any.

Drinking beer in the Speedwell Bar.

Acually, not true - returning it to the days before The Hun At The Till and when it was called Mennie's would be a massive improvement.
speaking as someone who worked in Mennie's and refuses to recognise the validity of the name Speedwall bar.

And one day all of Lochee will be free, free, I tell you, and we will continue in ways of our fathers and their fathers, throwing spears at buses

Sancho - Member
No what Im saying is that whilst youre negotiating a deal I dont think you should be going on strike, its not helping matters and simply entrenches both sides.
Same as government saying thats the last offer etc, none of it helps and just enflames the problem.
If negotiations break down and the "final offer" is unacceptable then you have something to consider whether you want to accept it or not and go on strike.

OK; In Scotland, the pay and conditions is part of a tri-party agreement consisting of COSLA( local authorities) the Government, and the unions. Only two of these groups discussed the change to teacher's pensions. Only two commisioned the Hutton report on pay and conditions (which suprise,suprise, favours massive cuts to both) Can you guess which two Sancho? Discussions are NOT on-going. The two Government bodies have refused to talk to the teaching unions for 18 months and indeed launched their compromise deal two weeks ago without telling the unions they were going to do so.Of course I can only give the teaching perspective, but we have seen about 33% of the terms of the MacCrone act (the T&C agreed in 2003 by all three groups) removed in the last 12 months,with no consultation OR prior warning.

Christ bickeirng about NHS waste is pointless, it is the civil service/government that wastes the money in all these areas, Nuclear power, IT systems,Road buiulding, Rail networks, defence, the waste is staggering and yet, Ive never heard of people being sacked from senior positions in the civil service for say wasting a million pounds on a rotor blade review for the westland helicopter, following westlands own review, or a £50 million pound upgrade to magnox reactors when it could have been done for £5million with another software, not to mention the billions wasted on failed IT and other projects.
I want these useless tw*ts sacked and competent people put in place.

I followed your advice and got a job in the public sector. They then decided we would be in the private sector instead. Our pensions got worse (harsh commercial reality of what the company could afford - something public sector workers are insulated from - or think they should be), we got lower pay rises than those who'd been our immediate colleagues but remained in the public sector, oh and they also got their pensions improved. I also look back on the days when we were in the public sector and realise just how cushy the work was.

For those who missed the point when I put something similar in the other thread - in my experience at least the public sector does give better pay and conditions, but that it isn't necessarily possible to get a job in it if you wanted. I issue the opposite challenge - if you work in the public sector and think the private sector is so wonderful (and that you're being shafted), then why don't you try switching?

Apologies if I'm repeating stuff - IDRATS

So duckman are you going on strike?
Are the changes unacceptable to you?

BigButSlimmerBloke - Member

Your "could be more efficient" claim is a complete red herring. Is there a single area of human activity where there couldn't be any improvements ? I can't think of any.

Drinking beer in the Speedwell Bar.

Acually, not true - returning it to the days before The Hun At The Till and when it was called Mennie's would be a massive improvement.
speaking as someone who worked in Mennie's and refuses to recognise the validity of the name Speedwall bar.

Agreed, as a Harris rugby boy who learned what real beer was in Mennies under the "gentle" instruction of the Ron Greigs of this world. However, Callum returning would not exactly be an improvement,IMO and not meaning to speak ill of the dead.If you are talking about before aforementioned Germanics you must be going back some. I left school in 1984 and started drinking with the FP's and she was long established then. I like it now; at least they turn the heating on in winter.

I followed your advice and got a job in the public sector. They then decided we would be in the private sector instead. Our pensions got worse (harsh commercial reality of what the company could afford - something public sector workers are insulated from - or think they should be), we got lower pay rises than those who'd been our immediate colleagues but remained in the public sector, oh and they also got their pensions improved. I also look back on the days when we were in the public sector and realise just how cushy the work was.

What area of work? Assuming someone somewhere was making some profit, was a better job done for the tax payer money going in?

Both public and private sector pensions are subsidised by the taxpayer. Public directly and private indirectly by the state topping up shite private sector pensions with winter fuel allowance etc. The Conservatives friends in big business just want the public sector pensions cut so they don't look as bad. We all work and we all deserve a decent pension, its a question of whether we all decide to pay for it. At the moment the private sector do not want to and therefore want the public sector's pensions cut.

private indirectly by the state topping up shite private sector pensions with winter fuel allowance etc.

And the tax relief. The biggest beneficiaries of which are higher rate tax payers, who you're more likely to find in the private sector.

Who are the public sector workers?

Here it is, We collect your bins; We plan, build and maintain your roads; We make sure company’s maintain certain compliances; We make sure restaurants don’t poison you; We run your libraries; We care for the children no one else can or will; We safeguard vulnerable adults and children; We manage the residential care homes that you put your relatives in when you can no longer cope; We heal and care for you when you are sick; We fight your fires; We police your streets; We strive to communicate with communities in the best way we can; and We do all this on lower-than-average salaries, ever-decreasing funds and expectations of savings to be delivered.

Think about this, I mean really think about this, [url= http://paulcoxonsmoments.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/a-message-from-a-public-sector-worker/ ]read it again if you need to[/url]…now think about this: Do. Not. F***. With. Us.

Sancho; On strike;although a holiday up here. The changes proposed are draconian.

End to chartered teaching, probationers work 90% of a teacher's timetable, end to permanent contracts,supply to be paid at lowest rate NOT according to their salary scale,Classroom assistants to take "some" classes which teachers have provided work for. On top of the pensions,replacing members of staff with the cheapest person to employ NOT the best for the job.
Now...Chartered was designed to keep good teachers in the classroom, rather than them moving into management.
Probationers are learning the job, they need trained and to make up resources. Putting them up to two periods a week less than a FT member of staff, seriously erodes their ability to do both in what is a VERY stressful year.Both the above were implemented with no discussion.
Supply are necessary. Paying them lowest rate for 5 days means they will not travel to outlying schools. Classes then end up doubled up.Again; no discussion
Classroom assistants to teach a subject they are not an expert in,need I explain?
As experienced staff leave they are replacing them with the cheapest applicant for the job, often with NO experience of the level of subject they will be taking.
Contracts; I agree the dead wood should go, however; Top of scale in teaching is £34,700. Bottom is £25,000 so end of your year contract...bin 10 experienced teachers, save best part of £100,000.
The proof for the above would be that I don't know any experienced teacher in my school who has gone for a post in another school and even been interviewed in the last year.

If you are talking about before aforementioned Germanics you must be going back some.

they turn the heating on in winter.

Good luck with your action duckman, sounds like youre in a difficult position.

THE psychological cost of being forced to verbally interact with striking council workers far outweighs any financial loss, experts have claimed.

As thousands of public sector types prepare to take to the streets, people with real jobs are making contingency arrangements to avoid listening to a social worker harangue them about pensions.

Carlisle factory worker Wayne Hayes said: "Ordinarily they’re safely contained inside their offices, drinking tea and posting peevish comments on the Guardian website."

"But my trip to work takes me right past a housing office and I know one of the strikers is going to corner me and try to compare themselves with the demonstrators in Egypt.

He added: "God knows how drunk I’m going to have to get to obscure the irritation but it’ll probably mean I have to take a couple of days off work with a hangover, thus costing me the moral high ground."

Businesses also fear that if public sector workers’ demands aren’t met, they may look for jobs in the private sector, costing billions in incompetence-related mistakes.

Employment lawyers are now frantically searching the Human Rights Act to see if it's legal to burn the CV of anyone who's ever been to an encounter group, or been paid to raise awareness of anything.

Julian Cook, chief economist at Donnelly-McPartlin said: “Like buying a child a PS3, agreeing to pension demands will be an expensive but effective way of ensuring council workers won’t get under anybody’s feet for a while.”

“You know deep in your heart that the little devils don’t deserve it, but you just want to avoid a full-blown screamy tantrum.”

back then they didn't have to, it was busy enough to generate it's own heat, like penguins huddled together in the Arctic.

😀

Mcboo; daily mash?

That's quality! 😀

Less whinging on public sector pc's during office hours and more work then?

You could up your productivity.

Carlisle factory worker Wayne Hayes said: "Ordinarily they’re safely contained inside their offices, drinking tea and posting peevish comments on [s]the Guardian website[/s] STW."

Err Hora; has talk of revolution and your browsing of the Soldier of Fortune website made you forget the Armed Forces ARE public sector workers?

Hora.....military pensions are so generous the mathematical equation that would generate those numbers hasnt been discovered yet. Shhhh.