MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Scotland are again trying to lead the way and look set to embarass the rest of the UK.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-11155653
I think that a minimum price per unit would not only begin to throttle the binge/anti social drinking culture that we have been growing steadily over the last 20yrs, it would also reduce the price difference between supermarket loss leading and local public houses.
Or perhaps we should go down the prohibition route, that seems to be working well with other recreational drugs!
binge drinking is not a financial thing it is a social issue. price increase will do nothing to discourage binge drinking.
I doubt it will work, drugs aint exactly cheap!
Opposition parties at Holyrood intend to unite to block the policy as they say it would hit responsible drinkers.
does anyone know any responsible drinkers who regularly buy 3litres of cider for £2.99?
Price is a red herring. This isn't going to work. Young people living at home will happily spend all their wages on alcohol. I know I did 😉
but if alcohol costs more, you'll get less of it in return for 'all your wages'
Agreed Penrod Pooch!
Also, alcoholics with partners and children will continue to buy the same quantity of alcohol, but it will cost more leaving less for to be spent on the partners and children.
That's not a very good idea.
Really??
How about dropping the price?
Seriously. Went to France for 2 weeks hols in August, and before we went everyone was warning us about how "expensive" France had become.
Yet very drinkable Appelation Controllee wines were in the order of 2.5 - 3 euros per 750 cl bottle. Cider as cheap as 0.99 euro for a 1.5 l bottle (and still very drinkable)
Didn't see any drunken and aggressive French binge drinkers anywhere.
This is a problem of social attitudes, not cost
cynic-al - MemberI doubt it will work, drugs aint exactly cheap!
er, yes they are - very cheap.
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/essex/8104959.stm ]'cheaper than a night out'[/url]
i just think that pushing folk out of their houses, street corners, kiddys playgrounds...... and back into local pubs is in general a good thing.
Currently the pubs just cannot compete on price.
Im not suggesting that people cannot drink to excess in either the short term or long term in a pub, but the sense of community and responsibility allows youngsters to push their boundaries (short term) in a safe-ish environment and everyone else keeps an eye out for each other (long term)
personal choice will still allow folk to kill themselves with alcohol, but surely at present hiding in your house with a few £5 bottles of scotch is too easy.
I claim my prize!
Seems I'm the only one that can see the sarcasm in your post(s).
[i]Or perhaps we should go down the prohibition route, that seems to be working well with other recreational drugs! [/i]
So only the poor are alcoholics? If pricing was the real reason then surely alcohol ought to be priced on an individual level, based upon 'disposable' income?
Like all addictions, price is not a factor. People will make other sacrifices to obtain their drug of choice.
Prohibition is not a solution either.
Cynical money making exercise on behalf of the govt. Economy's screwed, where we going to get more cash from? Minimum price on booze! Full of win. More cash and we are seen to be caring too. Result.
It's a social issue, end of. Unless we change our view that in order to have a "good night" we need to get slaughtered then this will not go away. Oh, and "Yes," I do like beer. Lots of beer.
Coyote - Membermoney making exercise on behalf of the govt
so it's a good thing then?
Who cares? Two weeks without booze here 🙁
It's a social issue, end of. Unless we change our view...
echoes other thoughts above, but doesnt go so far as to suggest how.
Make running a public house affordable again, away from the profiteering of big businesses. Let the people be sociable, let them talk, let them seek company and comfort instead of making drinking to forget the easy and cheap option
nobody has a better idea.
Make running a public house affordable again, away from the profiteering of big businesses
Couldn't agree more! I spoke with a landlord about 15 -20 years ago who said that the big brewerys were killing the pub trade and that there was little profit in beer.
Coyote, I am not sure how fixing a minimum price per unit raises revenue for the Scottish government. It may well do so for the companies selling alcohol such as the supermarkets but there is no direct increase in income for the government from that.
It is clear that using a minimum selling price is a blunt instrument for reducing alcohol consumption which may have a negative effect on the poor moderate drinkers but at least the Scottish government is trying to do something about the alcohol consumption problem that exists in this country. A change in attitude towards alcohol consumption is what is needed but that will take time. If binge and excessive drinking can be reduced now surely that is a good thing. The measure has the support of the BMA and the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons among others who deal with the consequences of this country's approach to alcohol. I am just back from a holiday in Italy where alcohol is freely available, plenty of bars, restaurants and supermakets but no drunk people patrolling the streets looking for trouble. I am sure a trip to inner city Naples or Rome might see me finding those people but the attitude alcohol in other countries does appear to be much healthier. How we change that attitude here is beyond me other than to say that I am sure our approach will not change overnight so let's try to forcefully reduce consumption while at the same time trying to change our unhealthy attitude.
ahwiles - MemberCoyote - Member
money making exercise on behalf of the govt
so it's a good thing then?
ahahahahahahahah hah ahha haahahahah aha ahaahahaha..
OH dear.. this is exactly the sort of reasoning that allows our rich and powerful government to syphon seemingly endless amounts of pocket change from the extremely poor population to drip into the enormous ocean of debt that is created in order to line their sable coats with silk..
lord have mercy
I doubt it will work, drugs aint exactly cheap!
An ecstacy tablet currently costs around £2.50 round here, and will do considerably more to you than a pint (which you would just about get for £2.50). 🙂
I'm not sure what to think about this - I do really agree that something needs to be done about the profitability of running pubs, but as I understand it the main problem is pubcos milking landlords dry - this isn't going to stop that happening - they will just make more profits.
Like all addictions, price is not a factor. People will make other sacrifices to obtain their drug of choice.
Price is a red herring. This isn't going to work. Young people living at home will happily spend all their wages on alcohol. I know I did
To be fair to the Scottish government, this kind of comment isn't actually true - there is loads of evidence that increasing the price of alcohol and/or adding minimum unit prices makes a great deal of difference to how much drinking goes on. It also has a significant effect on drink driving rates, alcohol related crime etc. Loads of evidence from places where they did bring this kind of policy in.
The government even commissioned some research on this:
Independent Review of the Effects of Alcohol Pricing and Promotion at the link below.
Didn't see any drunken and aggressive French binge drinkers anywhere.
Right, no French drink related violence, drink driving, health problems (cirrhosis of the liver rates are very high) etc. either, it'd be great to have the French attitude to drinking.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/25/france.jonhenley
Called "Alcoolisme : Un déni national" if anyone happens to be in a French library and interested in reading the original source.
The funniest part of all this is the "Scottish" Labour opposing these plans after publishing their very own report showing a minimum price would be a good thing and the Tories/LibDems opposing it despite the "UK" government wanting to do exactly the same.
Political point scoring with the health of the Scottish nation.
druidh +1
Whatever Wee Eck proposed Scottish Labour and the Tories would oppose it.
I agree that it's a cultural issue and not a pricing one.
I would go futher and suggest that pub alcohol duties are reduced, to encourage more people to socialise in the pub rather than drinking at home - the landlord can refuse to serve people who've been deemed to have imbibed too much.
does anyone know any responsible drinkers who regularly buy 3litres of cider for £2.99?
I've been buying Lidl's and Aldi's 2litre dry cider for £1.50. as its nice, and easier to take camping the 2litre bottle than it is several bottles of beer.
still that bottle will last use a couple of days.
as to Scotland 'leading the way' several councils in England are proposing the same.
Greater Manchester is considering it, as is Rossendale, was i was down near Buxton on Trent a few weeks ago, their local paper also had the headline that the council there was considering the same.
Still no one has come up with a way of getting it past the EU anti price fixing rules...
suggest that pub alcohol duties are reduced
Still no one has come up with a way of getting it past the EU anti price fixing rules...
would that work?
yunki - Memberahahahahahahahah hah ahha haahahahah aha ahaahahaha..
lord have mercy
i'm happy to pay taxes, am i so unusual?
I loves the booze me.
the landlord can refuse to serve people who've been deemed to have imbibed too much.
She/he's already under a (rarely exercised) duty to do so is he not?
yep, but the corner shop will happily sell me two bottles of vodka and a pack of fizzy cola bottles.
I can't see why so many people are trying to protect the public houses. Why on earth do we need them? Please tell me.
cheap cider indeed. Tsk. No class any of you. My liquid intake already costs a fortune. Its 'reassuringly expensive' 😀
Because robdob, we need somewhere to go before we have a fight outside the kebab house. Do you know nothing?
[i]Coyote, I am not sure how fixing a minimum price per unit raises revenue for the Scottish government. It may well do so for the companies selling alcohol such as the supermarkets but there is no direct increase in income for the government from that.[/i]
VAT?
I can't see why so many people are trying to protect the public houses. Why on earth do we need them? Please tell me.
Especially in rural communities pubs fulfill a vital role as a hub of the community. Similar to a PO. Lots of places become dull and lifeless when the local pub closes.
VAT?
VAT is collected by central government and does not go the Scottish Government. I also suspect that given that all this will do is to raise the price of very cheap alcohol that the increase in VAT receipts will be small.
Does this mean we'll have to endure hordes of the wretched creatures down here on booze cruises ? 😆
I can't see why so many people are trying to protect the public houses. Why on earth do we need them? Please tell me.
It's this new thing scientists have discovered called social interaction.
That well known paragon of wisdom, Jeremy Clarkson, once said that we drink like Northern Europeans and the French and Italians drink like Southern Europeans, because that's what we are. I think he might have a point.
If the UK had a similar climate to the south of Europe and it wasn't so damn dark for such a long time in the winter then I reckon my alcohol consumption would fall.
More of a step towards the Nanny State. Christ - we are human - we make our own choices. If somebody wants to drink themselves to death, they will, irrespective of alcohol pricing. In Sweden for example, beers above 3.5%, wine and spirits are very expensive (heavily taxed) and are only available from the Systembolaget - government run outlets with limited opening hours. So those who want to get around this construct a home still and get bladdered / dead on distilled grain / potato mashes.
Choice.
On a lighter note:
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/wetherspoons-to-open-in-a%26e-201009013051/ ]Funny![/url]
Surely this starts with education at schools(for long term benefits), and support for young people who are already binge drinking for a variety of reasons. There is so little support for people caught in alcohol abuse and continuing cuts in funding for specialists services will not help.
Increasing prices will not solve the problem.
How has the increasing price of fags affected the rates of people quitting?
How has the public smoking ban affected the rates of people quitting?
It's quite sad to see that people are taking such a binary approach to this. It appears that some people will refuse to accept anything that might go some to helping to solve a problem unless it provides a perfect solution. No one has ever pretended that this is some sort of magic bullit that will solve all of our alcohol problem and nor has anyone said that it will stop alcoholics from drinking, quite the opposite. It is being seen as a means of reducing overall alcohol consumption.
Personally I see it as a good thing and some of the arguments against it, including those expressed elsewhere, do not stand up to even the slightest scrutiny.
you aint comparing apples with apples pieface.
they are not talking about raising the duty on alcohol across the board but introducing a minimum price per unit to combat agressive selling tactics
however there have been several studies showing the almost instantaneous benefits of the smoking ban - cynics may say that these studies are government sponsored.........
How has the increasing price of fags affected the rates of people quitting?
Apparently increasing the price of fags by 50% reduces the number of them sold by approximately 25%.
How has the public smoking ban affected the rates of people quitting?
Increased it.
Joe
(Townsend J (1996) “Price and Consumption of Tobacco” British Medical Bulletin.)
Changing the culture towards alcohol will take a generation of small changes and making it unacceptable. This is about how it took to make drink driving become unacceptable. Setting a minimum price for alcohol won't solve the problem, but it is one very small step in solving the problem. Given that cheap booze is a loss leader for the supermarkets I can't see them complaining much either.
Changing the price of alcohol is part of changing the culture around alcohol. Note how Stella were able to elevate their bog standard lager to a luxury product before their marketing went wrong. Price can be a very effective mechanism for changing attitudes and patterns of consumption.
Not a magic bullet but, I think, a useful tool for reducing unhealthy consumption among the most vulnerable. It's supported by the science and resisted only by those with a political or economic interest. Worth a go I think.
Vote for petrieboy and I'll introduce the drinking licence. It will work thus.
At 18 you will apply for a provisional drinkers licence which will allow you to drink shandy under direct supervision of a qualified drinker.
Once you've learnt how to drink and not become a bawbag you are ready for your test
The test will involve having a proper skinfull and demonstrating you can refuse that last drink which would tip you over the edge. If you can manage that without vomiting outside a kebab shop or starting a fight you get your full licence.
Cause annoyance in a pub = 1 point
Urinating in the street = 3 points
Punch a policeman = 9 points
12 points = loose licence - you can't be trusted!
Get caught selling to or purchasing for an unlicensed person = immediate ban
Perfect solution? I should coco!
Vote petrieboy!
I quit smoking and drinking to excess last year as a direct result of becoming a father..
Maybe mandatory parenthood after the age of say.. 14.. would solve Scotlands alcohol related social problems..?
I know I drink too much, but I tend to drink red wine & not cheap stuff either so minimum price won't make much difference.
The thing that is making me cut back is I know it isn't doing me any good so perhaps education is the key??
Though this always makes me laugh [url=
cant be arsed reading all the rehashed arguments but I will post this rehash of a graph i did when this all came around the first time and 50p/unit was mooted.
[img] 
[/img]
i just think that pushing folk out of their houses, street corners, kiddys playgrounds...... and back into local pubs is in general a good thing.
I'm not so sure. That's where half the problems come from in our town, people w*nkered walking home from the pub, trashing things in the street. The more they keep it at home the better.
nobody has a better idea.
I do.
Address the social degeneration in British society that causes such horrendous behaviour.
Stop this pish that an alcoholic automatically gets incapacity benefit, It's like throwing petrol on the fire.
Stop saying that alcoholism is an illness, it isn't.
Go back to shutting pubs in the afternoon, for a couple of hours.
Well seeing as how you have all the ideas can you explain a couple of things
Address the social degeneration in British society that causes such horrendous behaviour.
What do you mean my "social degeneration" and what you would do to address it in such a way that would prevent "such horrendous behaviour"
Stop this pish that an alcoholic automatically gets incapacity benefit, It's like throwing petrol on the fire.
How exactly would stopping incapacity benefit stop alcoholism and by implication addiction in general. Do other addicts get this benefit and if not why would this work for alcohol addicts if it doesn't work for other forms of addiction. Additionally what about the harm done to society from those who are not addicted and do not therefore "automatically" get incapacity benefit.
Stop saying that alcoholism is an illness, it isn't.
Are you in any qualified to determine what is and is not an illness? Assuming that you are what benefit is there in treating such an addition as "not a benefit"?
Go back to shutting pubs in the afternoon, for a couple of hours.
How will this prevent an alcoholic from getting drunk? Will they not simply by off sales prior to the pubs closing?
The most important question of is, just how much is your Daily Mail subscription?
Like all addictions, price is not a factor.
This is complete fanny. There is price elasticity of demand in every drug (legal or not). Think of it the other way around: if beer were 10p a pint and heroin were 2 quid a gram, would there be more pissheads and junkies or just the same number?
Stop saying that alcoholism is an illness, it isn't.
Do you actually know what alcoholism is? Are you a medical professional?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholism
Binge drinking is hardly a new thing, it's always been there the media loves a good old story about now and then when there's no killer virus to talk about. Raising cost of drink will make no odds, they'll drink the same it'll just cost them more. Closing pubs in the afternoon won't make the slightest difference either.
This is complete fanny.
I'd like to apologise for this. No need for me to start being uppity like that when I could have just said "I disgree". Sorry.
And the news this am.
Alcohol sales continue to fall.
Raising cost of drink will make no odds, they'll drink the same it'll just cost them more.
Why do people keep saying this. It's obviously bollocks. Loads of people have done research into this and it is wrong. Alcohol prices go up, amount people drink goes down. It is just a fact.
It may be 'common sense' that people wouldn't drink less, but it is still wrong. If you think about it for a minute, it is pretty obvious - if you had two pubs, one with a £1 a pint night, and one that is a fancy mock belgian pub where beers are £3.50 for a half, would you seriously expect both to be full of seriously wasted people on a saturday night, or would you perhaps expect one of these to have a few more people vomiting in the toilets than the other?
Joe
Alcohol prices go up, booze cruises become viable again. It is just a fact.
Fixed it for you.
It may be 'common sense' that people wouldn't drink less, but it is still wrong. If you think about it for a minute, it is pretty obvious - if you had two pubs, one with a £1 a pint night, and one that is a fancy mock belgian pub where beers are £3.50 for a half, would you seriously expect both to be full of seriously wasted people on a saturday night, or would you perhaps expect one of these to have a few more people vomiting in the toilets than the other?Joe
But that's the option between two pricing levels, not an overall pricing level. Raising the price doesn't affect drinking until that price becomes extremely high. Increasing it by 50p or a £1 a pint across the board would have very little effect as people would just accept that it was now more expensive to go for a drink. I think you'd have to see 6 or 7 quid pints before people would seriously consider something else (probably other drugs at that point) and then that becomes wholely unfair on those who enjoy a nice quiet drink in a pub without causing endless problems.
Beer in London is a lot more expensive than a pint in Liverpool, yet both have drinking to excess.